My latest understanding of who is going to heaven

[ezrider]

I don't understand EZ....
Jesus is just saying that the tower didn't fall on them because they were sinners. This is true. I don't get what it has to do with our conversation.

Do you believe something in the universe could happen UNLESS God allowed it to?

Is there some being greater than God?

And I don't understand what you mean by "the purpose" in regards to calvinism.

Proverbs 19:21
Jeremiah 29:11
Ephesians 1:11
Psalm 115:3

.........

Why are you stuck on trying to define the terms of calvinism? What was the Lords purpose in raising up Pharaoh?

 

[ezrider]

Show me in scripture where it says any one, especially those who are of Christ own, are exempt from bad things happening to them even to death. Only God knows the faith or the lack of faith in those who perished in these disasters.

Same hold true for those whom the tower fell in Siloam, yet you said they perished because they did not repent. So which is it?

 

[for_his_glory]

Same hold true for those whom the tower fell in Siloam, yet you said they perished because they did not repent. So which is it?

Let me rephrase what I said as I went back to read it and see where the confusion is coming from what I said.

I should have said, those eighteen men that died when the tower fell on them were not chosen of God to perish that day by the tower falling on them, but that many do not repent, believe and have faith in God nor His Son Christ Jesus when these type of disasters happen.

The important lesson of disasters is to not to perish in them with an unrepentant heart, but that right now this very minute is the time of God's salvation as the kingdom of God is at hand for no one knows the day or hour of His return.

 

[GodsGrace]

Let me rephrase what I said as I went back to read it and see where the confusion is coming from what I said.

I should have said, those eighteen men that died when the tower fell on them were not chosen of God to perish that day by the tower falling on them, but that many do not repent, believe and have faith in God nor His Son Christ Jesus when these type of disasters happen.

The important lesson of disasters is to not to perish in them with an unrepentant heart, but that right now this very minute is the time of God's salvation as the kingdom of God is at hand for no one knows the day or hour of His return.

I'm happy you clarified this.
Just from previous posts of yours, I thought I understood you...but it's good to rephrase at times.

I agree with you and also stated this to ezrider .

 

[GodsGrace]

Why are you stuck on trying to define the terms of calvinism? What was the Lords purpose in raising up Pharaoh?

If you keep asking me questions EZ, we'll never get anywhere.
Just say what you want to say like I'm doing.

Maybe in my old age I just don't understand very well anymore.
If this is the case, I'm sorry about it. I do like talking to you.

 

[Bull of the Woods]

I don't believe eternal security is biblical.
It's conditional as I read the N.T.,
conditional on our following Jesus.

I don't want anyone to feel insecure...
I do want to warn them that salvation can be lost because they stop following Jesus.

Those who endure to the end will be saved...not those who abandon God. It's important to say this.
Mathew 24:13 is spoken by Jesus Himself.

I, OTOH, believe it's those who believe in OSAS that put persons in peril by not telling them the truth.

But it's a matter of those who endure are those who have been sealed.
It's not a matter of a bunch of people trusting on Christ and some number of them securing their eternal salvation by being really determined, disciplined individuals.
I tell you what. I have been a Christian since 1978. No one who has known me all that time would point to a time period where they questioned my faith. But I know if I had to count on my performance I better hang it up.

 

[john darling]

So, there are 3 categories of human beings:
BACs going to heaven, BACs not going to heaven,
and non-believers.

Hi. I didn't read through all 7 pages so I may repeat points already raised.

I would suggest that there is no such thing as a BAC who won't be saved, since it'd defeat the purpose of the ideal for God to damn someone who is born again.

Rather, I think the issue will be closer to what Jesus said when he warned that not all who say, "Lord" will enter the kingdom, but rather only those who obey God. (Mt 7:21). There's lots of people out there claiming to be born again, but they don't obey him.

As for belief, I think we show our belief through our behavior. The author of Hebrews lists a bunch of famous people including Abraham and Moses and suggests that we only know these people had faith because they demonstrated it through their behavior.

This is consistent with Jesus' oft-repeated warnings about the need to act on his teachings. In Matthew 7, at the end of the famous sermon on the mount, Jesus caps it off with a parable about a wise and foolish man. He says both the wise and the foolish man heard his teachings, but only the wise man acted on them.

In Luke 6:46 he's talking to his own so-called followers and asks them, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"?

In John 8 he says that if we follow his teachings then we will be his disciples, we will know the truth, and the truth will set us free.

And finally, even without any scriptural reference, it's just common sense that we cannot claim to be a follower of some particular discipline if we do not practice the ways of that discipline. You would not believe a person is a mechanic just because he owns a set of tools or that a person is a doctor just because he owns a set of medical books. Neither does it make sense to believe someone is a Christian who does not practice the teachings of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi. I didn't read through all 7 pages so I may repeat points already raised.

I would suggest that there is no such thing as a BAC who won't be saved, since it'd defeat the purpose of the ideal for God to damn someone who is born again.

Rather, I think the issue will be closer to what Jesus said when he warned that not all who say, "Lord" will enter the kingdom, but rather only those who obey God. (Mt 7:21). There's lots of people out there claiming to be born again, but they don't obey him.

As for belief, I think we show our belief through our behavior. The author of Hebrews lists a bunch of famous people including Abraham and Moses and suggests that we only know these people had faith because they demonstrated it through their behavior.

This is consistent with Jesus' oft-repeated warnings about the need to act on his teachings. In Matthew 7, at the end of the famous sermon on the mount, Jesus caps it off with a parable about a wise and foolish man. He says both the wise and the foolish man heard his teachings, but only the wise man acted on them.

In Luke 6:46 he's talking to his own so-called followers and asks them, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"?

In John 8 he says that if we follow his teachings then we will be his disciples, we will know the truth, and the truth will set us free.

And finally, even without any scriptural reference, it's just common sense that we cannot claim to be a follower of some particular discipline if we do not practice the ways of that discipline. You would not believe a person is a mechanic just because he owns a set of tools or that a person is a doctor just because he owns a set of medical books. Neither does it make sense to believe someone is a Christian who does not practice the teachings of Christ.

Great post!

 

[JLB]

So, there are 3 categories of human beings:
BACs going to heaven, BACs not going to heaven,
and non-believers.

Agreed.

The NT often mentions those who were chosen and called.
So, logically we assume that NOT everyone is chosen and called.

Chosen and called for what?


Please use scripture in your answer.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Therefore, God must ENABLE man to believe.

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 1:16

• the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

But it's a matter of those who endure are those who have been sealed.
It's not a matter of a bunch of people trusting on Christ and some number of them securing their eternal salvation by being really determined, disciplined individuals.
I tell you what. I have been a Christian since 1978. No one who has known me all that time would point to a time period where they questioned my faith. But I know if I had to count on my performance I better hang it up.

Two comments:

1. How do you know exactly what being sealed by the Holy Spirit means? Do you know the culture of those times? Do you know how people using this expression could have meant it?

If there are so many warnings about losing salvation and/or how it's dependent on our cooperating with God, why would Paul ever have used this expression? To confuse us?
I'm willing to discuss it if you wish.

2. Why do you think your performance has nothing to do with your salvation? Paul spoke many times of how we're to behave and what we're not to do...let alone the 10 commandments of God.

Why would this be important enough to be mentioned by all the writers unless our salvation could be in peril?

And what's more important.....all the different verses concerning this, or one about the sealing of the Holy Spirit?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”


2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ,again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn backfrom the holy commandment handed down to them.


Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.


Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’."

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."


2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.


1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.

Luke 6:43-49

What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi. I didn't read through all 7 pages so I may repeat points already raised.

I would suggest that there is no such thing as a BAC who won't be saved, since it'd defeat the purpose of the ideal for God to damn someone who is born again.

Rather, I think the issue will be closer to what Jesus said when he warned that not all who say, "Lord" will enter the kingdom, but rather only those who obey God. (Mt 7:21). There's lots of people out there claiming to be born again, but they don't obey him.

As for belief, I think we show our belief through our behavior. The author of Hebrews lists a bunch of famous people including Abraham and Moses and suggests that we only know these people had faith because they demonstrated it through their behavior.

This is consistent with Jesus' oft-repeated warnings about the need to act on his teachings. In Matthew 7, at the end of the famous sermon on the mount, Jesus caps it off with a parable about a wise and foolish man. He says both the wise and the foolish man heard his teachings, but only the wise man acted on them.

In Luke 6:46 he's talking to his own so-called followers and asks them, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"?

In John 8 he says that if we follow his teachings then we will be his disciples, we will know the truth, and the truth will set us free.

And finally, even without any scriptural reference, it's just common sense that we cannot claim to be a follower of some particular discipline if we do not practice the ways of that discipline. You would not believe a person is a mechanic just because he owns a set of tools or that a person is a doctor just because he owns a set of medical books. Neither does it make sense to believe someone is a Christian who does not practice the teachings of Christ.

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

 

[Senior]

I think the issue will be closer to what Jesus said when he warned that not all who say, "Lord" will enter the kingdom, but rather only those who obey God. (Mt 7:21).
There's lots of people out there claiming to be born again, but they don't obey him.
As for belief, I think we show our belief through our behavior.

Yes, thanks for sharing your beliefs!

Talking about belief ... a very MAJOR problem is that
one single word "believe" used in our English translations.
IMO, there is NO language that can describe
in one word all of the following ...
-- enduring deep heart-felt belief
-- enduring strong faith
-- enduring trust
-- enduring obedience

Yes, to be reconciled with the dozens of dire NT warnings,
the meaning of "believe" must include all of the above points.
... Regardless of what your pastor may be teaching you!

As confirmation of this ... here's an excerpt from a message
from one of God's current prophets/watchmen ...
"shepherds leading multitudes to hell".

Because no one who practices habitual (unrepentant) sin
will be allowed into heaven to live with a HOLY GOD.

 

[Senior]

Senior: "The NT often mentions those who were chosen and called.
So, logically we assume that NOT everyone is chosen and called. "
Chosen and called for what?
Please use scripture in your answer.

Chosen and called to be the BACs whose destiny is heaven
(although some would say "for ministry").
These are given the OPPORTUNITY to endure to the end
and be saved (given eternal life).
I have no Scriptures for this ...
just Scripture in general, the Holy Spirit, logic, etc.
But, where does it say everyone is chosen and called?

The "whosoever"s (John 3:16, etc.) are given a seed of faith,
otherwise no one could possibly believe the "foolish" gospel.
Do we have to get into all of this again?

 

[JLB]

Chosen and called to be the BACs whose destiny is heaven

Please show us a scripture that teaches God only chooses some to be saved.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Jesus said whosoever believes, not whosoever is chosen.




JLB

 

[billybalke]

Chosen and called to be the BACs whose destiny is heaven
(although some would say "for ministry").
These are given the OPPORTUNITY to endure to the end
and be saved (given eternal life).
I have no Scriptures for this ...
just Scripture in general, the Holy Spirit, logic, etc.
But, where does it say everyone is chosen and called?

The "whosoever"s (John 3:16, etc.) are given a seed of faith,
otherwise no one could possibly believe the "foolish" gospel.
Do we have to get into all of this again?

Hi Senior II Thes. 2:14 teaches we are "called" by the "gospel". How does the gospel call? By the preaching of the gospel, Mark 16:15

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT, JEW AND CALVINIST

 

[Senior]

Please show us a scripture that teaches God only chooses some to be saved.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
Jesus said whosoever believes, not whosoever is chosen.

How many times are we going to go over this?
Paul addresses believers as those who were chosen and called.
Why would he say this, if everyone is chosen and called?
The "whosoever"s have been given faith to believe by God.

Acts 16:14 ...
"Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul."
Does the Lord open everyone's heart so they can believe?
No, just those who have been chosen and called.
This explains Romans 9.

So, only these ones have the opportunity to not only
become BCs , but to be overcoming BACs.
And only these BACs make it to heaven.

Obvious proof that salvation can be lost is found in
Revelation 13 and Revelation 14.
Those BACs who take the mark of the beast are lost forever.
And everyone will have apple reasons to take the mark,
like to be able to buy and sell food for their families!
Those who submit to taking it are lost forever.

 

[billybalke]

How many times are we going to go over this?
Paul addresses believers as those who were chosen and called.
Why would he say this, if everyone is chosen and called?
The "whosoever"s have been given faith to believe by God.

Acts 16:14 ...
"Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul."
Does the Lord open everyone's heart so they can believe?
No, just those who have been chosen and called.
This explains Romans 9.

So, only these ones have the opportunity to not only
become BCs , but to be overcoming BACs.
And only these BACs make it to heaven.

Obvious proof that salvation can be lost is found in
Revelation 13 and Revelation 14.
Those BACs who take the mark of the beast are lost forever.

Hi SENIOR
Please read the verse you cited carefully. Lydia's heart was opened by the preaching of the gospel. Again as in my previous post, we are "called" by the gospel. The gospel is to be preached unto all the world. "FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED. HOW THEN SHALL THEY CALL ON HIM IN WHOM THEY HAVE NOT BELIEVED? AND HOW SHALL THEY BELIEVE IN HIM IN WHOM THEY HAVE NOT HEARD? AND HOW SHALL THEY HEAR WITHOUT A PREACHER? AND HOW SHALL THEY PREACH, EXCEPT THEY BE SENT? AS IT IS WRITTEN, HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THEM THAT PREACH THE GOSPEL OF PEACE, AND BRING GLAD TIDINGS OF GOOD THINGS! BUT THEY HAVE NOT ALL OBEYED THE GOSPEL. FOR ESAIAS SAITH, LORD, WHO HATH BELIEVED OUR REPORT? SO THEN FAITH COMETH BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD. ROM.10:13-17.
Senior, I would invite you to join me in a one-on-one on this subject and other matters discussed.

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT, JEW AND CALVANIST

 

[JosephT]

How many times are we going to go over this?
Paul addresses believers as those who were chosen and called.
Why would he say this, if everyone is chosen and called?
The "whosoever"s have been given faith to believe by God.

Acts 16:14 ...
"Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul."
Does the Lord open everyone's heart so they can believe?
No, just those who have been chosen and called.
This explains Romans 9.

So, only these ones have the opportunity to not only
become BCs , but to be overcoming BACs.
And only these BACs make it to heaven.

Obvious proof that salvation can be lost is found in
Revelation 13 and Revelation 14.
Those BACs who take the mark of the beast are lost forever.
And everyone will have apple reasons to take the mark,
like to be able to buy and sell food for their families!
Those who submit to taking it are lost forever.

Let me see if I understand, God made us for perdition, picks one or two out of a 'bunch' [a technical term for "the many"], He rewards only those he picks by lottery with the beatific vision and the rest are sent to the tormenting abyss?

I never could win in a casino's game of chance - the odds are against you. That sounds like a God I don't want to know

JosephT

 

[john darling]

Why would he say this, if everyone is chosen and called?
The "whosoever"s have been given faith to believe by God.

I'm not sure If I've properly understood the contention here about being chosen and called, but I'll share my opinion.

My understanding is that God chooses those who choose him. An example of this from the OT is that of Sodom. Abraham was convinced that there must be some small amount of people who were righteous, so God allowed him a chance to convince them. This happened a few times, with eventually only Lot and his family leaving, and even then Lot's wife looked back. Lot was chosen while his wife and others were rejected.

The same could be said for the people of Noah's day. You don't build a vessel as large as the ark without attracting a lot of attention. Noah was probably an oddball who received a lot of curious visitors and it makes sense that he would have explained to them what was coming. They probably thought he was crazy. However, Noah could not have escaped on his own; he needed God's help to get through the disaster. As a result Noah and his family were chosen while the others were rejected.

In the NT we have the example Jesus gave of people who are on the rooftop or out in the field not going back to get their stuff when God calls them to go. As it was in the days of Noah and Lot some people will ignore that call while others will respond. Some will be chosen while others are rejected.

This theme of going when God says go is repeated in the parable of the wedding feast, where people are called, but they all make excuses not to come; one saying he'd just married and needed to tend to his wife, another saying he bought new farm animals and needed to tend to them, and another saying he'd just bought a new piece of land.
Eventually the master of the party tells the servants to invite anyone who is willing to come. The people who attend the party are chosen while those who rejected the invitation are themselves rejected.

God chooses those who choose him.