ezra
Member
this is what calvinism believes in there are some no matter what are doomed for hell
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My latest understanding of who is going to heaven
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Let me see if I understand correctly. By “sin nature” it is meant that God created man “evil” that is with the nature of sin? We are so bound to our nature, much like we are bound to breathing, sleeping, eating, having two arms, two legs, and other common attributes of human nature that we were created for perdition?
JosephT
ezra
Member
no we was born with the sin nature due to the fall of adam and eve
ezrider
Member
Do we try and prove the doctrines of men, or do we try and prove the scripture? Doomed to hell seems to be part of the doctrines of men. This is not my understanding. Shall they not also be justified if they are chosen to show forth the power of God?
ezrider
Member
I will look for it. I might add, Jesus was also called mine elect; and he found his way to the cross!
ezra
Member
you must be the one answer this. i know you so your not calvinist and i am not saying you are . just what i read lines up with the langue calvinist us. so as to keep from offending you .i await your answer then i will comment
stovebolts
Member
I would disagree. We were born in a fallen world. Both Adam and Eve had the propensity to sin and they did.
In Psalms 139:14 (ESV), David writes this.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well.
I understand that some will use Psalm 51:5 (Jewish Translation) to support the idea of a sin nature from birth.
5. Behold, with iniquity I was formed, and with sin my mother conceived me.
We have to keep in mind here that David was just confronted by Nathan over his sexual exploit of Bathsheba and the murder of her Husband Uriah. Rashi explains the verse this way: Now how could I not sin when the main part of my creation was through coitus, the source of many iniquities?
Rashi further explains in verse 6.
6. Behold, You desired that truth be in the hidden places, and in the concealed part You teach me wisdom.
Behold, You desired that truth be in the hidden places: and behold, I confess to the truth, that I sinned.
and in the concealed part You teach me wisdom: And in the heart, which is concealed, You have taught me wisdom to confess.
ezrider
Member
I personally do not study the doctrines of men, I have no desire to try and prove them nor disprove them. If the devil can quote scripture, then are all doctrines of the devil?
I am not offended, I just don't understand why everyone feels the need to compare everything to what Calvin or any other scholar taught.
As to my answer, as it is written, it is the Lord who justifies whom he will.
ezra
Member
Psalm 51:5 [Full Chapter]
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
the sin nature is there nobody taught me to sin .to each there own i inherited the sin nature due to the fall ..maybe were on same page just reading saying it different
1 Corinthians 15:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Romans 5:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin ; and so "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
this is what i go by
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
the sin nature is there nobody taught me to sin .to each there own i inherited the sin nature due to the fall ..maybe were on same page just reading saying it different
1 Corinthians 15:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Romans 5:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin ; and so "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
this is what i go by
ezra
Member
if you was to look at calvinism then you would see why it is said.. personally i like to look at church doctrines there are some i am not familiar with
ezrider
Member
Deuteronomy 30:11-14
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Romans 10:6-8
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Romans 10:6-8
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
stovebolts
Member
Who taught Adam to sin?
We understand in Psalms 51 that David could not resist his sexual desire. God created sex for pro-creation (Genesis 1:28 a And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth...) yet sexual desires have ruined many households. In the case of David, he murdered an innocent man.
David is projecting that when his mother and father had sexual relations, they were not thinking of making a child, but instead they were thinking of their own lustful desires.
It should be pretty simple to understand. When we have sex with our spouses, it is rarely to have children but instead for mutual sexual gratification.
I do not deny the sin nature, we all have it. But we have to take into account that
Eve was tricked, and Adam sinned willfully although they were created "Good". Yes, the earth was cursed
Genesis 3:16-19 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
There seems to be two objections with the 'sin nature' due to the fall. The first begs the question, if Adam didn't have the "sin nature" before the fall, how did he sin? The other question left begging is, was the punishment a "remaking" of the nature of man, making him pernicious? There is no evidence in Scripture that would indicate that God 're-made' mankind and Adam seems to have been free to sin or not.
JosephT
ezra
Member
i only go by scripture every thing was took care of for adam eve .every thing was perfect . up till eve listened to the message of the serpent has God said. the moment the took of the forbidden fruit .eyes was open guilt -fear was opened up . ever since that time it has continued.
ezra
Member
no body taught him they did it of there own free will just as Romans 3:23 read all have in past tense ..the good news is we can be free from sin .once we are saved we are NO longer the sinner but a child of God a new creation in Christ sin no longer has Dominion over us we are under grace not law . the real good news is
John 1:12
“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
w/o that power in the form of the Holy Spirit we would be helpless to sin --we have victory in Jesus .were not victims . sin is there just the possibility of wreck every time we drive. we focus on driving so we dont wreck . we should focus on Jesus so we dont sin.. but we will but we still still have a advocate . i have to crucify my flesh because my old nature loved the pleasures of sin for a season . i am studying on a message titled ALMOST IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH . the Bible say He has given us all things that pertain to a Godly life . Grace empowered by his spirit
ezra
Member
throw this in adam was created first adam had all the instructions given to him before Eve was made .. where was He at ? he never protected eve from the wiles of the serpent . while she was deceived both had free will
yes agreed on this and the sexual desires natural and unnatural are running rapid today . on my way to work at the junction is a place called the pony .adult strip bar. beside it a adult store .
i can show you christian families that has daughters having children outside the marriage and holding to salvation . temptation will come the arousing will happen just from the start of a kiss .
see more than once of having a child outside the marriage creates red flags . sin is at every corner waving yelling come on down . some will agree some will not . but i stand by my post
The point isn't so much what is used for understanding, rather what one makes of what one reads. Consider this, if Adam was born with "sin nature" that is to say human nature is to sin, then God created us that way. Each time we sin we would be justified not saying Eve made me do, but that God made me do it. What is read in Sacred Scripture is that God created the seas, land, night, day, etc., and man and declared it good. [Genesis 1:31]. He was made with freewill to sin or not.
If you wish to say Adam's punishment was to be "re-made" by God with "sin nature" then we have the same objection. 'God remade man evil' - which is to say that God is pernicious in creating something evil then condemning it for being exactly the way He made. I never bought this line of thought.
In actuality, what did happen was that God punished Adam and Eve after they committed a voluntary immoral act by depriving them of His justice. God simply removed Himself from Adam.
Adam had this original justice, a certain right-reasoning (a rectitude of the will) in the cardinal virtues, in quite an abundance prior to the fall. We inherit this depravation as the punishment and the guilt being the progeny of Adam.
You are not a depraved child of sin - so called in saying "sin nature," else God creates evil.
JosephT
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ezra
Member
he was not born of a sin nature .he sinned in the garden him and eve .everything was perfect in the garden
you got that right im a new creation in Christ ..i done posted my thoughts beliefs on stove bolts post post 95 have a good night
ezra
Member
them is your words NOT MINE