My latest understanding of who is going to heaven

[ezra]

Those are the logical consequences of your words.

JosephT

you mean the words to think that is being said.. unless you can come up with a direct quote please do not imply what you think is being said

 

[Bull of the Woods]

Hmmmm, I wonder who would want and like those held in the palm of God's hand, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, to feel insecure rather than secure?

 

[GodsGrace]

Pharaoh of Egypt was also elected of God for a purpose. Some are elected to wrath.

Judas would be another example.
It's difficult to understand God's sovereignty in conjunction with man's free will. In a certain way, and certainly it IS like this...God wills all. IOW, nothing can happen unless God so wills it.

But, unlike calvinism which believes that God CAUSES all to happen, be it good or bad, Christianity believes that God ALLOWS all to happen exactly to leave man his free will.

The passages in Exodus could be confusing:
4:21 God will harden pharaoh's heart
7:3 Ditto
8:32 Pharaoh hardened his own heart

I do hope StoveBolts starts a thread on this study and advises us here.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hmmmm, I wonder who would want and like those held in the palm of God's hand, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, to feel insecure rather than secure?

I don't believe eternal security is biblical.
It's conditional as I read the N.T.,
conditional on our following Jesus.

I don't want anyone to feel insecure...
I do want to warn them that salvation can be lost because they stop following Jesus.

Those who endure to the end will be saved...not those who abandon God. It's important to say this.
Mathew 24:13 is spoken by Jesus Himself.

I, OTOH, believe it's those who believe in OSAS that put persons in peril by not telling them the truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

The point isn't so much what is used for understanding, rather what one makes of what one reads. Consider this, if Adam was born with "sin nature" that is to say human nature is to sin, then God created us that way. Each time we sin we would be justified not saying Eve made me do, but that God made me do it. What is read in Sacred Scripture is that God created the seas, land, night, day, etc., and man and declared it good. [Genesis 1:31]. He was made with freewill to sin or not.

If you wish to say Adam's punishment was to be "re-made" by God with "sin nature" then we have the same objection. 'God remade man evil' - which is to say that God is pernicious in creating something evil then condemning it for being exactly the way He made. I never bought this line of thought.

In actuality, what did happen was that God punished Adam and Eve after they committed a voluntary immoral act by depriving them of His justice. God simply removed Himself from Adam.

Adam had this original justice, a certain right-reasoning (a rectitude of the will) in the cardinal virtues, in quite an abundance prior to the fall. We inherit this depravation as the punishment and the guilt being the progeny of Adam.

You are not a depraved child of sin - so called in saying "sin nature," else God creates evil.

JosephT

I think I agree with you....but are you saying man does not have a sin nature?

 

[ezrider]

Judas would be another example.
It's difficult to understand God's sovereignty in conjunction with man's free will. In a certain way, and certainly it IS like this...God wills all. IOW, nothing can happen unless God so wills it.

But, unlike calvinism which believes that God CAUSES all to happen, be it good or bad, Christianity believes that God ALLOWS all to happen exactly to leave man his free will.

The passages in Exodus could be confusing:
4:21 God will harden pharaoh's heart
7:3 Ditto
8:32 Pharaoh hardened his own heart

I do hope StoveBolts starts a thread on this study and advises us here.

I don't accept the idea that God causes or allows ALL things to happen. That to me would not conform to the question Jesus asked about some tower falling on people (Luke 13:4). Pharaoh and Judas were both elected for a PURPOSE. Do you know what that purpose was? They way you describe calvinism, it sounds as if they leave no room for the purpose.

 

[for_his_glory]

Doomed to hell seems to be part of the doctrines of men.

Man does doom his own self to hell if he is not chosen as being the elect of God through faith in Christ Jesus by His grace.

John 5: 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (These are the chosen and elect of God)

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (Those who are kept by the power of God are His chosen and elect)

 

[Senior]

I don't believe eternal security is biblical.
It's conditional as I read the N.T.,
conditional on our following Jesus.
Those who endure to the end will be saved..
... it's those who believe in OSAS that put persons in peril
by not telling them the truth.

I praise God that you have this revelation of the Truth.

 

[ezrider]

Man does doom his own self to hell if he is not chosen as being the elect of God through faith in Christ Jesus by His grace.

This is like talking in circles. How can man doom himself if he is not chosen? Man can not chose himself, can he?

2 Timothy 2:11-13
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 

[for_his_glory]

There is no evidence in Scripture that would indicate that God 're-made' mankind

In a sense God did remake a sinless world through only one sinless man named Noah. It repented God that He created man because of the evil imaginations in their heart. Noah was the only man on earth that was a righteous man blameless before God as Noah walked with God and was obedient to God's commands which were first given to Him before the days of Moses. (Look up the Noahic commandments)

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't accept the idea that God causes or allows ALL things to happen. That to me would not conform to the question Jesus asked about some tower falling on people (Luke 13:4). Pharaoh and Judas were both elected for a PURPOSE. Do you know what that purpose was? They way you describe calvinism, it sounds as if they leave no room for the purpose.

If you are going to make a point with Luke 13:4 you also need to read vs 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. God does allow us the choices we make as either being blessed of Him or cursed by Him, Deuteronomy Chapters 27, 28. Even Pharaoh and Judas were called by God like every one who has ever lived, but refused to ignore God calling them to His salvation as it is through faith and a repentive heart that we become the elect of God. God will use the evil of man for whatever purpose He wants to bring all to His salvation. The choice is for us to chooses in whom we will follow.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is like talking in circles. How can man doom himself if he is not chosen? Man can not chose himself, can he?

2 Timothy 2:11-13
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

You have answered your question by the verse you posted. One is not chosen to be the elect of God because he believes not and denies Jesus as being the Son of God, but yet God is faithful to Himself within His commands and statures.

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 

[ezrider]

If you are going to make a point with Luke 13:4 you also need to read vs 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Maybe you need to read verse 5 for the fear of perishing. I only referenced the scripture based upon my comment.

Were these 18 people chosen by God to perish?

 

[ezrider]

You have answered your question by the verse you posted. One is not chosen to be the elect of God because he believes not and denies Jesus as being the Son of God, but yet God is faithful to Himself within His commands and statures.

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Why don't you address the part where he says if we believe not, then he yet is faithful because he can deny himself? And please, try answering in your own words, not with other scripture.

 

[ezra]

Why don't you address the part where he says if we believe not, then he yet is faithful because he can deny himself? And please, try answering in your own words, not with other scripture.

on your part there can never be a clear answer unless its what falls into your belief . i realize once again your not calvinist . this is every bit of calvinist doctrine at its best.. i discussed it debated it for years in carm . so i doubt you get your answer

 

[for_his_glory]

Maybe you need to read verse 5 for the fear of perishing. I only referenced the scripture based upon my comment.

Were these 18 people chosen by God to perish?

No, they were not chosen of God to perish, but perished because they did not repent, believe and have faith in God nor His Son Christ Jesus.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[ezrider]

No, they were not chosen of God to perish, but perished because they did not repent, believe and have faith in God nor His Son Christ Jesus.

And the people who died in the tsunami last week when Krakatau epupted. Did they too perish because they did not repent? How about the people who perished a few months ago in the fires in northern California? Was it because they did not repent?

 

[for_his_glory]

Why don't you address the part where he says if we believe not, then he yet is faithful because he can deny himself? And please, try answering in your own words, not with other scripture.

I already did address that. If we do not repent and confess Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior we are none of His nor are we the chosen elect of God. If we are faithless God is still faithful in all He has spoken whether it be life eternal with Him or the fearful judgement of being cast into the lake of fire.

BTW, scripture interprets itself within the full context and that is why I answer with scripture. If it's my own opinion I will say it is IMO.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't accept the idea that God causes or allows ALL things to happen. That to me would not conform to the question Jesus asked about some tower falling on people (Luke 13:4). Pharaoh and Judas were both elected for a PURPOSE. Do you know what that purpose was? They way you describe calvinism, it sounds as if they leave no room for the purpose.

I don't understand EZ....
Jesus is just saying that the tower didn't fall on them because they were sinners. This is true. I don't get what it has to do with our conversation.

Do you believe something in the universe could happen UNLESS God allowed it to?

Is there some being greater than God?

And I don't understand what you mean by "the purpose" in regards to calvinism.

Proverbs 19:21
Jeremiah 29:11
Ephesians 1:11
Psalm 115:3

.........

 

[for_his_glory]

And the people who died in the tsunami last week when Krakatau epupted. Did they too perish because they did not repent? How about the people who perished a few months ago in the fires in northern California? Was it because they did not repent?

Show me in scripture where it says any one, especially those who are of Christ own, are exempt from bad things happening to them even to death. Only God knows the faith or the lack of faith in those who perished in these disasters.