Mystery, Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots

[Sparkey]

Your post with your queries was number 77 and my replies to you were numbers 82 and 83.

After that exchange all I've heard from you is bitterness and grumblings.

Doc.

CORRECTION: chakham asked in post #73, "If I'm not mistaken, you are claiming that Jerusalem is the Mother of All Harlots, right?" (you may click the link number to verify this)
Your response(s) ignored my intent entirely. Perhaps I did not make myself clear. By the way, I did not feel slighted or ignored, but thought merely that you had a lot to say and didn't want to deal with my observation that you had (in your exuberant enthusiasm) seemingly slaughtered the the very meaning of words themselves. My first point was intended to give you a chance to correct yourself, perhaps I did not make that clear. Before we go further though, let's review the admonishments given in this thread by the moderators and amend our trouble(s) accordingly, shall we?

I am going to strongly suggest that our newer members read the TOS.

Personal attacks will stop now.

Again it was another post that referred to Ezekiel, not me.

If so, I mentioned that in Ezekiel 23 it describes Aholibah (Jerusalem) as a daughter not a mother.

Your response was, can't a mother also be a daughter?
Peace

Your 2 page wall-o-text attempting to address chakham's concern did not mention my concern. That even the English language itself does not allow for your mis-interpretation of facts. Let me restate, so that you can focus on what I meant to say was, "My interjection / objection: When you say, "The Great Whore is a Harlot - then try to say, "You can NOT be a harlot without being married" - it is simply not true. Perhaps you thought I was just being persnickety? It wasn't intended to be.

Instead, my purpose was to give you a chance to reconsider your position. Do you really wish to say that in order to be a harlot or a whore, one must be married? Huh? Really? Again, that is simply not true. Your comments that Jerusalem was the only possible reference as the "Great Harlot" based on her espousal to God and your flawed logic - you can't break a covenant that never existed (leaving all other harlots out of the equation) is false because you pretend that the act of harlotry demands marriage. It does not.

______________________________________________

Okay, on to my primary assertion.
God has not abandoned Israel and never will. He will keep every promise that He has ever made including all that has been spoken to Israel.

I know that you've stated that there are only a couple (a few maybe?) members of your family that are outside of what is right -- but this point needs to be emphasized - God has not, nor will He ever abandon His children, the Jews.





I too agree with Free.

Strangelove: While posting in this particular forum and on this site in general, you will: Act in a Christ-like manner & treat other with a sense of respect.

 

[smaller]

Okay, on to my primary assertion.
God has not abandoned Israel and never will. He will keep every promise that He has ever made including all that has been spoken to National Israel.

I know that you've stated that there are only a couple (a few maybe?) members of your family that are outside of what is right -- but this point needs to be emphasized - God has not, nor will He ever abandon His children, the Jews.

Hey, somebody else CAN READ and BELIEVE The Word of God.

Imagine that!?

Bravo I say. Bravo! :yes:yes:yes:yes:yes

 

[jasoncran]

did i get that right? we should have let the entire nation of the jews die? wow.

a jew that hates his own, your words not mine.

i guess the holocaust was a good thing in your eyes the purging of the impure jews who ruined the german empire.
and also the world.

we got involved in that war for a myriad of reasons, namely that hitler sooner or later would attack us. and that is was the right thing to do.

what part of I lost family in that holocaust do you fail to see?

i think smaller has a point about this topic, very strong point.

btw i was never raised in the temple, nor influenced by the adl. Just taugh that holocaust was and is wrong. and that as a christian we have the duty to defend the weak and defensless.

 

[Vic C.]

I'm not seeing much at all that is addressing the OP. We either need to get BACK on topic, or call it quits and close this down. :bigfrown

Honestly. I'm seeing almost no Biblical defense from those who take the position that Israel is the Harlot (and there is much about it in scripture). All I see is alleged current events that don't really line up with scripture, IMHO.

Lets get back to the Bible!

 

[jasoncran]

I'm not seeing much at all that is addressing the OP. We either need to get BACK on topic, or call it quits and close this down. :bigfrown

Honestly. I'm seeing almost no Biblical defense from those who take the position that Israel is the Harlot (and there is much about it in scripture). All I see is alleged current events that don't really line up with scripture, IMHO.

Lets get back to the Bible!

vic pm me those verses, i wish to study those.

 

[Strangelove]

I'm not seeing much at all that is addressing the OP. We either need to get BACK on topic, or call it quits and close this down. :bigfrown

Honestly. I'm seeing almost no Biblical defense from those who take the position that Israel is the Harlot (and there is much about it in scripture). All I see is alleged current events that don't really line up with scripture, IMHO.

Lets get back to the Bible!

Arn't you allowed to help me out Vic?

 

[smaller]

Statements of 5 w's of THE HARLOT, Mystery Babylon from WORD:

Revelation 17

1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Please take PERSONAL NOTES HERE:

Who among us is NOT an inhabitant of THE EARTH? Hello truth numero UNO.

Now, who among us can state this TRUTH personally and move on into greater understanding? Certainly NOT anyone who can not submit to THIS FACT personally imho, unless they want to claim to be an ALIEN NOT ON EARTH.

We are certainly forms of alien WANDERERS searching and reaching for our heavenly and permanent abodes while we are here ON EARTH but the fact is and remains we ARE here on earth, even IN earth as our bodies are 'scripturally' comprised and defined as beings of DUST.

When I look in the mirror I SEE A DUST MAN who will actually wind up that way in the not too distant future because IT'S A FACT.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The wilderness is just a fantasic study in scripture. Israel was LED into the 'wilderness' and saw/experienced MANY great spiritual workings with God. More workings than I want to get into here. Jesus was also LED into the wilderness by THE SPIRIT to confront SATAN. In effect being LED into the wilderness is a spiritual experience for many of us and that working contains many fine matters.

It is in THE WILDERNESS that we begin to see 'behind the curtains' and 'see the workings of EVIL' that transpire beyond the EYES OF THE DUST MAN.

I'm going to peel back a CURTAIN in this spiritual matter to SEE who SEES. IF no one here sees, then it is not MEANT for you to see and you are NOT familiar with 'wilderness' experiences spiritually speaking:

Here is a MEAL that YOU, each and every one of you believers who have been led into the WILDERNESS have been FED by YOUR MAKER.

Psalm 74:
13 Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.
14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

The dragon is SATAN in Revelation. His head was broken in the waters. The WATERS is where THE WHORE SITS and the WATERS are PEOPLE. Any of us who DO SIN have done DRAGON WORKS. We have HAD A MEAL that was broken and fed to us by God.

Anyone following the spiritual math here yet?

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The sin any "rich/satanic Jew" has is not one whit different than any christians sin.


The same workings that made 'men' corrupt then do the same today. The pharisees still squat in the churches of christianity. The sin any man has is OF THE DEVIL. (1 John 3:8)



No, he is a flat out 'under the influences' of an anti-semetic "rich satanic Jew" hater. Some forms of anti-semitism are fronted by people claiming to be jewish themselves. Here is my response to that: Don't be so sure or so blind. Listen to what they say. If their message is anti-semetic, I doubt very much the name or the claim of being 'jewish.' If they tried to pull the 'rich satanic Jew' conspiracy in their own family of supposed Jews they'd be kicked out the door 'cause most of them aren't that stupid.

If any man says "rich" Jews are devils, they are anti-semetic, and very possibly under the influences of satan themselves in that matter.

s

Smaller.
Doc is correct in the fact that Jerusalem is the harlot.He also is preaching against the same beast that Jesus condemned.Im speaking of the beast which once was and yet is once more.
Rev17;10
And there are seven kings,five are fallen,and one is,and the other is not yet come;and when he cometh,he must continue for a short space.
Rev 17;11
And the beast that was,and is not,even he is the eighth,and is of the seven,and goeth into perdition.

Jesus preached against the beast that was.And when John wrote the above verse the beast was not,meaning it did not exsist in 100 ad.The reason it didnt exsist is because the Romans wounded its head and scatterd it.The beast that is of the seven and is the eighth is in fact the leaders of that people.The very goverment that the people have chosen to rule over them.The rejected the king God had given them to serve a beast.



The seven kings that have reigned over Israel
Five that were fallen.
Egypt,Assyrian,Babylon,Persia,and Macedonia.
One that was at the time John wrote this-Rome.
Then came the Dispora
The one who would come and continue a short space,who the people of Israel were gatherd under-
Great britian.
The eighth is that kingdom that once was,then was not when John wrote this,but now is again today.
The kingdom that calls itself by the name of Israel.

But on this board people support the beast .When anyone speaks against it they are labbled an antisemetic.
Jesus preached against the same jewish leaders.I suppose Doc should expect to be called names though because Jesus was before him.

 

[Strangelove]

Ok lets get back to scripture and Revelation.

Can someone who doesnt agree with me about all of this please explain to me these verses right here::::

REV 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.​

REV 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.​

Who are these people that are described as those who say they are Jews but are not and do lie. The synagogue of satan. Who are they?​

P.S. Jason if you want to continue that discussion I'd be happy to just mail me your last post.​

 

[smaller]

Smaller.
Doc is correct in the fact that Jerusalem is the harlot.

That statement is not contained in the text. That presentation is imaginary.

He also is preaching against the same beast that Jesus condemned.Im speaking of the beast which once was and yet is once more.
Rev17;10
And there are seven kings,five are fallen,and one is,and the other is not yet come;and when he cometh,he must continue for a short space.
Rev 17;11
And the beast that was,and is not,even he is the eighth,and is of the seven,and goeth into perdition.

Jesus preached against the beast that was.

The identity of the beast is up to many scriptural depicitions. Many of us will agree that it is some type of 'evil' power. Seeing any evil power in physical depiction will remain problematic because 'the reality of that power' is behind the physical veil. It is not so easy as just to pin upon a locale, person or persons, particularly while exempting ourselves. I am not fond of hypocrisy as a believer/follower of Christ Jesus.

John the Apostle was 'in the Spirit' and 'in the wilderness' when describing many of these matters and as such we are not obliged to see these matters solely as physicality in any form. Clearly there are anti-Christ spirits, spiritual wickedness, etc etc that are INTERNAL matters, and thusly are not physically viewable. That has been one of my points in this thread.

Evil is in fact an 'inner matter.'

Mark 7:
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within,

Unfortunately nearly ALL viewers of these matters want to claim EXEMPTION, EXEMPTION in the name of God....and only look upon the EXTERNAL.

The facts are as Jesus described them. By the time you see THE EXTERNAL EVENT it is TOO LATE. The 'real problems' originate WITHIN, where they are NOT seen by anyone or perceived by ANYONE but the carriers of same.

Are you a carrier? Can you answer TRUTHFULLY?

And when John wrote the above verse the beast was not,meaning it did not exsist in 100 ad.

The EVIL within entered man through ADAM in the Garden. To try to pin this on some a.d. date is rather inane historicity trying vainly to attach these matters to somewhere else, some other time and some other person(s) or worldly politics when the realities are they are MUCH CLOSER TO HOME for ALL of US.

The reason it didnt exsist is because the Romans wounded its head and scatterd it.The beast that is of the seven and is the eighth is in fact the leaders of that people.The very goverment that the people have chosen to rule over them.The rejected the king God had given them to serve a beast.

And that is your (worldly imho) opinion that is simply not the case.

Jerusalem is outright stated in text to be spiritually termed SODOM and EGYPT, and NOT as 'Mystery Babylon' anywhere to be found therein save by the imaginations.

The seven kings that have reigned over Israel
Five that were fallen.
Egypt,Assyrian,Babylon,Persia,and Macedonia.
One that was at the time John wrote this-Rome.
Then came the Dispora
The one who would come and continue a short space,who the people of Israel were gatherd under-
Great britian.
The eighth is that kingdom that once was,then was not when John wrote this,but now is again today.
The kingdom that calls itself by the name of Israel.

Very fanciful.

But on this board people support the beast .When anyone speaks against it they are labbled an antisemetic.

Let me again be the first to say IT IS ANTI-SEMETIC. That much is a FACT. Anyone playing the SATANIC/RICH JEW card is patently ANTI-SEMETIC and is a pawn of that working. I will also say I do not count that SIN against them. I know the root cause and the root cause IS SATAN.

Jesus preached against the same jewish leaders.I suppose Doc should expect to be called names though because Jesus was before him.

Please see my scriptural facts on this matter presented previously.

Jesus CLEARLY addressed 'children of the devil' IN THE PHARISEES. People are NOT devils. Who then was Jesus talking to but CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL in those people??? To say otherwise is a blatant FOUL.

Blind men do not see other blind men very easily, if at ALL.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Strangelove]

Why do people here support the Nation State of Isreal and Jews anyway?

Why do you defend them?

Are they not antichrist?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

There it is from John....plain and simple.

What on Earth have real Christians got to do with these people apart from preaching the Gospel to them and hoping that they recognise and believe in the Son?

1 THESS 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

They please not God! They are contrary to all men!
Of course they are contrary...they are antichrist!

But you guys defend them?? Why?​

 

[JudaicChristian]

Why do people here support the Nation State of Isreal and Jews anyway?

Why do you defend them?

Are they not antichrist?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

There it is from John....plain and simple.

What on Earth have real Christians got to do with these people apart from preaching the Gospel to them and hoping that they recognise and believe in the Son?

1 THESS 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

They please not God! They are contrary to all men!
Of course they are contrary...they are antichrist!

But you guys defend them?? Why?​

Not everyone who lives in Israel is Anti-Christ. Only the Orthodox Jews are Anti-Christ, in regards to Yahshua.

 

[Strangelove]

Okay, on to my primary assertion.
God has not abandoned Israel and never will. He will keep every promise that He has ever made including all that has been spoken to Israel.

Ok I want to deal with this cos it seems to be a main assertion with the Pro-State of Isreal lobby.

God doesnt owe anything to the ethnic Isrealites. Nope. It's done.

He's fulfilled all the promises He made to them. All this happened back in Joshua. It was a done deal. They got their promised LAND....they got their enemies served up to them on a plate....the whole perfect shebang:::

21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he swear to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he swear unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.​

All of it. Done and done. Every single thing that God promised His then chosen people came to pass. Nothing left. Unless you dont believe Joshua?​

But what did they do?? The people? After God gave them everything that He promised? The sweet crib....the safety...the harmony...etc....etc...​

​

Huh? They messed it up didnt they?! AGAIN!​

Now God is offering them a different deal. The same thing He has offered everyone else...... A NEW COVENANT. A covenant that they have been failing to accept for the last 2000 years.​

Instead they choose to dwell in the spirit of antichrist.​

 

[Strangelove]

Not everyone who lives in Israel is Anti-Christ. Only the Orthodox Jews are Anti-Christ, in regards to Yahshua.

ANYONE who denys the Son of God is antichrist. ANYONE in the world including the State of Isreal.

Unless you are calling John a liar?

 

[Strangelove]

Vic I'm so glad you got this thread back on track.

It really is all there in scripture.

I need to stay on target.

 

[Strangelove]

Jesus preached against the beast that was.And when John wrote the above verse the beast was not,meaning it did not exsist in 100 ad.The reason it didnt exsist is because the Romans wounded its head and scatterd it.The beast that is of the seven and is the eighth is in fact the leaders of that people.The very goverment that the people have chosen to rule over them.The rejected the king God had given them to serve a beast.

Heeeeeyyy you said wounded the head.....that gives me an idea>>>

The Deadly Wound, Healed

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mark 11:13,14 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world (apostate church) wondered after the beast.

The deadly wound was inflicted in 70 AD and Healed in 1948 when Israel became a Nation. Yeahhhhh...this is all starting to make perfect sense now....thanks Shilohsfoal!

Rev 13: 11,12
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein (the apostate church) to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

 

[jasoncran]

reconcile acts 1, and if the beast and the ac are one and the same(this is shilos arguement) then why arent we dead yet?

the temple isnt build yet nor is there mass beheadings.

 

[JudaicChristian]

The beast out of the sea is the Vatican. And the beast out of the earth is America. America is a republic with a democratic process, that makes the two horns. Israel can not be the smallest nation because it will continue through the millenium. Scripture says so.

 

[TonkaTim]

I'm going to interject a bit here.

From reading this thread I see Doc criticizing the corrupt religion - Talmudism (phariseeism) Kabblah/Zohar(babylonian mysteries). These are the books of the leadership of this corrupt new religion that was laid out from the oral traditions and fully born in Babylon between 200-500 AD. These books are not the Torah(Moses) or the books of the prophets we read as the Old Testament, it is something completely different. Jesus condemned the teachings of phariseeism all through the Gospels. He makes it very clear in Mark 7:1-13 as well.
Christ is the fulfillment of the "shepherds & the sheep" prophecy in Ezekiel 34.

Seems Doc & I see very similar declarations in the scriptures. I too see the dangers of Phariseeism, just as I see dangers in Islam, Theosophy, all the religions that contain fragments of the ancient mystery schools and deny Christ.

I wrote this in response to one who believes in the two-ways concept - aka - Judah is special! Above all people! I've heard those that hold to that dangerous theology actually declare that what Jesus taught was only for the jews and What Paul taught was only for the gentiles. So it seems they only read Paul, Revelations, and Daniel. Because those are they only scriptures they ever really seem to discuss, with one exception Genesis 12:3, which they apply to make 1 tribe out of 14 "special above all people". -
_______________
-The land - It is a foreshadowing of greater things to come. The True kingdom. Christ & the Kingdom of God has been taught from the beginning. Go back to Genesis and take a look at what God is teaching through Moses. Take a look at the events. Think about Joseph and how he is cut off from his natural brothers. Sold into slavery to the gentiles and raised up as a savior to his people. Then look at Gen 48. Think about how the cutoff brother becomes restored back to his father Israel. Why do you think Israel adopted Ephraim & Mannasseh(gentiles) as his own sons? Do they represent a Wild branch? Take a look at all the blessing/curses on all the Patriarchs in Gen 48 & 49. Take a close look at the one for Judah. If you read the KJV you'll find the word Shiloh, which means - to whom it rightfully belongs. It is a special word and is only used in this one instance, it represents the coming Christ.

This theme is repeated several times. It is repeated in Exodus through Moses with God calling his people out from the wicked(gentiles/egypt). Christ is proclaimed through the Passover event. Those that believed & obeyed(hebrew & gentile) participated and were saved. Remember they were instructed to tell all their neighbors, and the egyptian people were glad & gave the hebrews silver. It was a mixed multitude that left Egypt, it was a mixed multitude that entered Caanan. Moses instructed the tribes to give the "sojourners" an inheritance as well. Moses warned what will happen and proclaimed Christ. See the Songs of Moses.

It has always been about Christ and the Kingdom of God.

We see the theme repeated as well throughout the rest of the Old Testament and proclaimed by the Prophets.

We find more of the greater promise through David, this is what God is revealing to David as well - the coming Christ. After David & Solomon the symbolic kingdom becomes divided and the people are being repeatedly displaced among the gentiles. Twice for the northern Kingdom until they are completely displaced and assimilated into the gentiles. Completely cutoff, forgetting who they are, a fulfillment of prophecy. We then see the same thing happen with the kingdom of Judah. Displaced into the Babylonian empire twice with less & less returning, those not returning become assimilated into the gentiles. God told them they could be called Lo Ammani - not my people. God also promised that - not my people - would be given a new name - sons of the living God -. We know that name now as - Christians. This is how God chose a small people to bring Christ to all people. The prophecy of the return of Judah was fulfilled when Shiloh - whom it rightfully belongs - came and took the scepter of Kingship, the staff of the Priesthood - Christ. God foreshadowed his Plan from the beginning. But, not like the pagans with myth, false symbols, and idols. God proves to the world by showing the movement of his hand by actual people, real history.

The Old Testament believers are believers just like us. They believed in the coming Christ & were waiting on the promised Kingdom of God. We believe in the risen Christ & are waiting on the promised Kingdom of God.

This is why Jesus told the pharisees that - "Abraham was glad to see my day". Abraham knew Christ, Abraham knew the promises were fulfilled in Christ. Why in Acts 1 The disciples were only concerned about when the Kingdom would be restored. Why in Acts 3 & 4 Peter & John declare Jesus the fullfillment of the prophecies and the promises.

This is what Paul is teaching in Romans 9,10, 11. This is what the Messianics teach and call it Olive Tree Theology. Christianity is not a new religion, It did NOT begin in 35 AD. It is what the disciples called it - the way. It has always been the way. It has been the way from the beginning. ALL the other religions are the new ones. It is why Jesus said "I am the way", He has always been the way.

Think about this;
Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel The LORD God of your fathers the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob hath sent me unto you this is my name for ever and this is my memorial unto all generations.

This is יְהוָ֞ה is the modern script for the hebrew name of the memorial forever. The letters are yod hey vav hey - YHWH. It is what it means when you see - LORD written this way - YHWH
This is the language of Moses. Take a look at that link.
Hebrew Pictograms
The letters mean: yod = hand, hey = behold, vav = nail, hey - behold.

YHWH translates into English - "Behold the Hand, Behold the Nail". This is why it was meant to be unspeakable, because it was meant to be seen by all future generations to be understood.

Now look at the letter tav which represents - mark, sign, covenant. It is the cross. Christ has been taught from the beginning.

This is why so many are not looking for a nation, and understand it is not about the Jews & the Gentiles. Its about Believers & unbelievers since time immemorial. The vast majority of historical Israel was dispersed into the gentiles almost 3000 years ago and have been continually called by a new name since the time of the resurrection of Jesus. It is about God's plan, the olive tree, the redemption of all people, the risen Christ, the fulfillment of the promise of the coming Kingdom. This is the Gospel.

If the modern nation is anything, it is part of the strong delusion because a very dangerous theology has been built around it. There is not two ways, never has been, never will be. There has always been only one way. It has always been about Christ & the coming Kingdom from the beginning. The Gospel is for ALL people. Those that do not believe need to hear it. People, please stop reading all the new gospels of men, all the new prophecies of men, read the scriptures, the Bible. That is where you will find the Truth

 

[jasoncran]

I'm going to interject a bit here.

From reading this thread I see Doc criticizing the corrupt religion - Talmudism (phariseeism) Kabblah/Zohar(babylonian mysteries). These are the books of the leadership of this corrupt new religion that was laid out from the oral traditions and fully born in Babylon between 200-500 AD. These books are not the Torah(Moses) or the books of the prophets we read as the Old Testament, it is something completely different. Jesus condemned the teachings of phariseeism all through the Gospels. He makes it very clear in Mark 7:1-13 as well.
Christ is the fulfillment of the "shepherds & the sheep" prophecy in Ezekiel 34.

Seems Doc & I see very similar declarations in the scriptures. I too see the dangers of Phariseeism, just as I see dangers in Islam, Theosophy, all the religions that contain fragments of the ancient mystery schools and deny Christ.

I wrote this in response to one who believes in the two-ways concept - aka - Judah is special! Above all people! I've heard those that hold to that dangerous theology actually declare that what Jesus taught was only for the jews and What Paul taught was only for the gentiles. So it seems they only read Paul, Revelations, and Daniel. Because those are they only scriptures they ever really seem to discuss, with one exception Genesis 12:3, which they apply to make 1 tribe out of 14 "special above all people". -
_______________
-The land - It is a foreshadowing of greater things to come. The True kingdom. Christ & the Kingdom of God has been taught from the beginning. Go back to Genesis and take a look at what God is teaching through Moses. Take a look at the events. Think about Joseph and how he is cut off from his natural brothers. Sold into slavery to the gentiles and raised up as a savior to his people. Then look at Gen 48. Think about how the cutoff brother becomes restored back to his father Israel. Why do you think Israel adopted Ephraim & Mannasseh(gentiles) as his own sons? Do they represent a Wild branch? Take a look at all the blessing/curses on all the Patriarchs in Gen 48 & 49. Take a close look at the one for Judah. If you read the KJV you'll find the word Shiloh, which means - to whom it rightfully belongs. It is a special word and is only used in this one instance, it represents the coming Christ.

This theme is repeated several times. It is repeated in Exodus through Moses with God calling his people out from the wicked(gentiles/egypt). Christ is proclaimed through the Passover event. Those that believed & obeyed(hebrew & gentile) participated and were saved. Remember they were instructed to tell all their neighbors, and the egyptian people were glad & gave the hebrews silver. It was a mixed multitude that left Egypt, it was a mixed multitude that entered Caanan. Moses instructed the tribes to give the "sojourners" an inheritance as well. Moses warned what will happen and proclaimed Christ. See the Songs of Moses.

It has always been about Christ and the Kingdom of God.

We see the theme repeated as well throughout the rest of the Old Testament and proclaimed by the Prophets.

We find more of the greater promise through David, this is what God is revealing to David as well - the coming Christ. After David & Solomon the symbolic kingdom becomes divided and the people are being repeatedly displaced among the gentiles. Twice for the northern Kingdom until they are completely displaced and assimilated into the gentiles. Completely cutoff, forgetting who they are, a fulfillment of prophecy. We then see the same thing happen with the kingdom of Judah. Displaced into the Babylonian empire twice with less & less returning, those not returning become assimilated into the gentiles. God told them they could be called Lo Ammani - not my people. God also promised that - not my people - would be given a new name - sons of the living God -. We know that name now as - Christians. This is how God chose a small people to bring Christ to all people. The prophecy of the return of Judah was fulfilled when Shiloh - whom it rightfully belongs - came and took the scepter of Kingship, the staff of the Priesthood - Christ. God foreshadowed his Plan from the beginning. But, not like the pagans with myth, false symbols, and idols. God proves to the world by showing the movement of his hand by actual people, real history.

The Old Testament believers are believers just like us. They believed in the coming Christ & were waiting on the promised Kingdom of God. We believe in the risen Christ & are waiting on the promised Kingdom of God.

This is why Jesus told the pharisees that - "Abraham was glad to see my day". Abraham knew Christ, Abraham knew the promises were fulfilled in Christ. Why in Acts 1 The disciples were only concerned about when the Kingdom would be restored. Why in Acts 3 & 4 Peter & John declare Jesus the fullfillment of the prophecies and the promises.

This is what Paul is teaching in Romans 9,10, 11. This is what the Messianics teach and call it Olive Tree Theology. Christianity is not a new religion, It did NOT begin in 35 AD. It is what the disciples called it - the way. It has always been the way. It has been the way from the beginning. ALL the other religions are the new ones. It is why Jesus said "I am the way", He has always been the way.

Think about this;
Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel The LORD God of your fathers the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob hath sent me unto you this is my name for ever and this is my memorial unto all generations.

This is יְהוָ֞ה is the modern script for the hebrew name of the memorial forever. The letters are yod hey vav hey - YHWH. It is what it means when you see - LORD written this way - YHWH
This is the language of Moses. Take a look at that link.
Hebrew Pictograms
The letters mean: yod = hand, hey = behold, vav = nail, hey - behold.

YHWH translates into English - "Behold the Hand, Behold the Nail". This is why it was meant to be unspeakable, because it was meant to be seen by all future generations to be understood.

Now look at the letter tav which represents - mark, sign, covenant. It is the cross. Christ has been taught from the beginning.

This is why so many are not looking for a nation, and understand it is not about the Jews & the Gentiles. Its about Believers & unbelievers since time immemorial. The vast majority of historical Israel was dispersed into the gentiles almost 3000 years ago and have been continually called by a new name since the time of the resurrection of Jesus. It is about God's plan, the olive tree, the redemption of all people, the risen Christ, the fulfillment of the promise of the coming Kingdom. This is the Gospel.

If the modern nation is anything, it is part of the strong delusion because a very dangerous theology has been built around it. There is not two ways, never has been, never will be. There has always been only one way. It has always been about Christ & the coming Kingdom from the beginning. The Gospel is for ALL people. Those that do not believe need to hear it. People, please stop reading all the new gospels of men, all the new prophecies of men, read the scriptures, the Bible. That is where you will find the Truth

renconcile acts 1 with this as all apostles ask the lord when shall the kingdom of isreal be restored? The lord didnt say that isreal wouldnt rise agian just that its not for him to know when these shall be.