Mystery, Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots

[TonkaTim]

renconcile acts 1 with this as all apostles ask the lord when shall the kingdom of isreal be restored? The lord didnt say that isreal wouldnt rise agian just that its not for him to know when these shall be.

"It is a foreshadowing of greater things to come. The True kingdom. Christ & the Kingdom of God has been taught from the beginning."

Why I reference Gen 48 & 49. Its clear.

 

[jasoncran]

the apostles didnt believe that and he knew what they believed, remember that the jews at that time see the messiah as one who will conquers isreal enemies and redeems them, and they are right for that is written.

read zecheriah 9 for further study as it talks about the return of the jewish nation to the lord. they do accept him.

and we are in the times of the gentiles not the trib, if the ac has risen then where is the attempt by him to make peace with isreal?

 

[TonkaTim]

More dual-covenant theology.

So, which book of men are you reading that is convincing you that Zechariah is not discussing the coming Christ & the Kingdom and to expect the exact same thing the pharisees were so wrong about?

 

[TonkaTim]

Let me ask this.

What is Zechariah saying 5-11
KJV
"5Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth. 6And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth. 7And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. 8And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. 9Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. 10Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah? 11And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance - 8152
Shinar
Probably of foreign derivation; Shinar, a plain in Babylonia -- Shinar.

 

[jasoncran]

oh please, this is from a GUY who read the the bible for himself and believed that isreal wasnt promised land in the endtimes.

i was a jw, so i asked and look for my self.

so what is this spritual city then? as its also defended in the book of revalation unless you believe that the battle of harmeggido is a metaphor then(as its not gonna happen).

the jews accept the messiah as we do btw in the return they acknowledg their straying away and return to the lord , and in the millenial reigh there are used to judge the earth and christ reigns in jerusalem then and the rest of us gentile saints will also be there to rule with him

we are called co rulers.

that is what i was taught.

not all men die in the final battle.

isiah alludes to this time, so does exekiel, and others.

i could say that is the catholics that started the replacement theology of yours and i would be quite correct.

the lord didnt abandon his people just set them aside and went to the gentile. paul spoke of this in romans.


and in the gospel of mathew didnt jesus say this to the city of jerusalem, oh jersusalem though that killest the prophets i would gather you like the hens gathers its chicks but you would not, therefore you shall not see me till ye say blessed is he who cometh in the name of the lord.

 

[TonkaTim]

I haven't replaced anything.

I addressed what Paul is saying in Romans 11 in my first post in this thread.

This is what Paul is teaching in Romans 9,10, 11. This is what the Messianics teach and call it Olive Tree Theology. Christianity is not a new religion, It did NOT begin in 35 AD. It is what the disciples called it - the way. It has always been the way. It has been the way from the beginning. ALL the other religions are the new ones. It is why Jesus said "I am the way", He has always been the way.

I'd suggest taking a look at the scriptures Paul starts this discussion with - Hosea 1 & 2. Then take a look at Hosea 14 so you can see where & where Paul gets the olive tree. Its clear in my first post.

 

[jasoncran]

Let me ask this.

What is Zechariah saying 5-11
KJV
"5Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth. 6And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth. 7And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. 8And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. 9Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. 10Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah? 11And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance - 8152
Shinar
Probably of foreign derivation; Shinar, a plain in Babylonia -- Shinar.

dude, i taking from zechariah 9:10 -17 and also zechariah 8.and chapters 12-14

and that verse above is talking about the beast itself not the promise of restoration.

 

[jasoncran]

I haven't replaced anything.

I addressed what Paul is saying in Romans 11 in my first post in this thread.

This is what Paul is teaching in Romans 9,10, 11. This is what the Messianics teach and call it Olive Tree Theology. Christianity is not a new religion, It did NOT begin in 35 AD. It is what the disciples called it - the way. It has always been the way. It has been the way from the beginning. ALL the other religions are the new ones. It is why Jesus said "I am the way", He has always been the way.

I'd suggest taking a look at the scriptures Paul starts this discussion with - Hosea 1 & 2. Then take a look at Hosea 14 so you can see where & where Paul gets the olive tree. Its clear in my first post.

thats not the whole nation as well duh, paul is a jew and believes, and what of the statement by christ to the city of jerusalem. we gentiles are allowed in because God set aside the jew, if we also look a the verse romans 2:28.
what does it say, who is a jew but that the is a jew inwardly (meaning accepting christ)

the idea that jews arent in the new covenant and reach god throught the ot ways isnt what i am saying,
this is the nation as a whole accept the messiah and his teachings and returns to him!

 

[TonkaTim]

thats not the whole nation as well duh, paul is a jew and believes, and what of the statement by christ to the city of jerusalem. we gentiles are allowed in because God set aside the jew, if we also look a the verse romans 2:28.
what does it say, who is a jew but that the is a jew inwardly (meaning accepting christ)

the idea that jews arent in the new covenant and reach god throught the ot ways isnt what i am saying,
this is the nation as a whole accept the messiah and his teachings and returns to him!

And that is what Hosea is saying?

lo ammani - not my people

not my people will be called a new name - sons of the living God?

God's going to wait for thousands of years while millions perish in false doctrine and just save a few at the end?


And.. Lo Ammani is not dispersed among the goyim? right?

 

[jasoncran]

then paul was lying then when he went to the jew first then

and god said in that book that he will provoke isreal to jealously with the gentiles

and he also said that the stars would fall if he abandons isreal.

if you read that in hosea its i said to a people that arent my people , thou art my people big difference.

isiah said the same thing

what does the goyim have to do with what the bible says? you wanted me to use the bible and lo i am.

 

[TonkaTim]

The outline of what Paul is teaching in Romans is clear

1. Righteousness from God.
2. Unrighteousness of all
A. Gentiles - not my people
B. Judah
C. all people
3. Justification, Sanctification, Freedom
4. Vindication
A. All of Israel
5. Righteousness in practice
A. The Body - the Ekkesia
B. In the world
C. Weak & Strong

So Paul's theme & the scriptures he cites in Hosea have no practical purpose for All of Israel?

And All of Israel has no relation to the Ekkesia?

So Paul is teaching 2-ways and not reconciling the 1-way right?

 

[TonkaTim]

Doc who is a Christian Jew, who was caught up in the false doctrine of Talmudsim is trying to teach what he knows from experience.

Just like a former smoker is the most zealous non-smoker.

One who escapes false teachings is the most zealous to expose those false teaching.

 

[jasoncran]

wow, you assume that i believe two way dispensation i dont, i merely believe that as a nation the jews return, those that return are the nation, not the ones that dont.

isreal isnt that state at present.

let me assume something then.

if the entire nation of isreal is forsaken, and theres no national capital called jerusalem that the ac sits in when the temple is built then. where is the antichrist and what is he?

and then you have also left out the provacation of the jews by us gentiles.

 

[TonkaTim]

wow, you assume that i believe two way dispensation i dont, i merely believe that as a nation the jews return, those that return are the nation, not the ones that dont.

isreal isnt that state at present.

let me assume something then.

if the entire nation of isreal is forsaken, and theres no national capital called jerusalem that the ac sits in when the temple is built then. where is the antichrist and what is he?

and then you have also left out the provacation of the jews by us gentiles.

That is the point of the outline Paul specifically addresses Judah in chapters 2 & 3 as he is building his complete message in Romans. Chapter 11 deals with All of Israel. I don't know why so many have such a hard time understanding that Judah is not All of Israel.

Jerusalem has existed from the time of Titus till the present without the need for a nation of partial unrepentant Judah to exist.

That said - if you'd like to discuss the genetics and the land we can discuss the Christian believers (ekklesia) who have been on all the promised land since the time of the apostles.

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes
This scientic paper link shows the DNA info of the Sephardic Jews & the native Christians. It shows the DNA is the same.

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome

Y-Chromosone (DNA) is from the father, meaning they genetically have the same fathers, they are genetic brothers.

Arab Christians and Arabic-speaking Christians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This link shows native Christians have been on the promised land since the time of the apostles.
Quotes from linked wiki article;

Arab Christians, and Arabic-speaking Jews for that matter, predate Arab Muslims, as there were many Arab tribes which adhered to Christianity since the first century, including the Nabateans and the Ghassanids.

Arab Christians are Christians in certain countries in the Arab world. Arab Christians are indigenous to the Middle East,

Palestinian Christians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This link shows the persecution of the native Christians since the arrival of the Zionist post WW2.
Quotes from linked wiki article;

Christians now comprise just 2.5 percent of the population Jerusalem, they once comprised around 51%

during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War; in West Jerusalem, over 51% of Christian Palestinians lost their homes to the advancing Israeli army

Christians were also often found in the more affluent segments of Palestinian society that fled or were expelled from the country during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War

What about these people? How do they fit in to your theory?

 

[zone]

I have my views on Babylon, but I'm at work right now and don't have time to go into it now. I do want to mention a couple of things though.



For those reading this that don't know the Noahide laws, here they are:

1. Do not commit idolatry
2. Do not murder
3. Do not steal
4. Prohibition of sexual immorality
5. Do not blaspheme
6. Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7. Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts)

All of these laws are included within the Mosaic law. If people accept the Mosaic law, they automatically accep the Noahide laws as well, since they are a subset of the Mosaic law. What do you mean by saying that acceping the Mosaic law will "[culminate] in our acceptance of the Noahide laws"?

Also, as a Jew, you should realize that the Sanhedrin cannot be our enemy, since it doesn't exist today and hasn't existed for over 1600 years. Although an attempt was made a few years ago to re-establish the Sanhedrin, it was never officially recognized and therefor has not authority.

oh but the Sanhedrin DO EXIST today. they reappeared in 2004, while everyone was either looking for the "rapture", focusing on Rome, or the EU or whatever else.

regards,
zone

Sanhedrin Launched In Tiberias

A unique ceremony - probably only the second of its kind in the past 1,600 years - is taking place in Tiberias today: The launching of a Sanhedrin, the highest Jewish-legal tribunal in the Land of Israel

The Sanhedrin, a religious assembly that convened in one of the Holy Temple chambers in Jerusalem, comprised 71 sages and existed during the Tannaitic period, from several decades before the Common Era until roughly 425 C.E. Details of today's ceremony are still sketchy, but the organizers' announced their intention to convene 71 rabbis who have received special rabbinic ordination as specified by Maimonides.

An attempt to reconvene the Sanhedrin was made several centuries ago in Tzfat. The body in fact ordained such greats as Rabbi Yosef Karo, the author of the classic Jewish Law code Shulhan Arukh. However, the opposition of other leading rabbis soon forced the end of the endeavor.

One of the leaders of today's attempt to revive the Sanhedrin is Rabbi Yeshai Ba'avad of Beit El. He said that the 71 rabbis "from across the spectrum received the special ordination, in accordance with Maimonides' rulings, over the past several months." Rabbi Ba'avad explained that the membership of the new body is not permanent: "What is much more crucial is the establishment of this body. Those who are members of it today will not necessarily be its members tomorrow. But the goal is to have one rabbinic body in Jerusalem that will convene monthly and issue rulings on central issues. This is the need of the generation and of the hour."

Rabbi Yisrael Ariel, who heads the Temple institute in Jerusalem, is one of the participating rabbis. He told Arutz-7 today, "Whether this will be the actual Sanhedrin that we await, is a question of time - just like the establishment of the State; we rejoiced in it, but we are still awaiting something much more ideal. It's a process. Today's ceremony is really the continuation of the renewal of the Ordination process in Israel, which we marked several months ago. Our Talmudic Sages describe the ten stages of exile of the Sanhedrin from Jerusalem to other locations, until it ended in Tiberias - and this is the place where it was foretold that it would be renewed, and from here it will be relocated to Jerusalem."

Rabbi Ariel said that the rabbis there included many from the entire spectrum:
"Hareidi, religious-Zionist, Sephardi, Ashkenazi, hassidi, and many others - such as Rabbi Yoel Schwartz, Rabbi Adin Shteinzaltz, and many others... We can't expect a great consensus; that's not how things work here. But sometimes that's how the process goes, from the bottom up."
(IsraelNationalNews.com)

Sanhedrin Launched In Tiberias - Jewish World - Israel News - Israel National News

here's their own website. if you look for the Noahide Link, you'll see they're deadly serious:

The Sanhedrin - en

 

[jasoncran]

first off, you forget that i said that isreal isnt at that state, and two and no jew know his tribe. has that been told to them yet.

and if you want to go there then blame the u.n and brittain.



brittian denied the two state solution. ever heard of the white paper?
the arabs didnt have any problems with the jews getting a state,till the brits changed their minds.

and i will go to an actuall historical source not wikipedia as well any MUSLIM could add to that without having any problems with that.

if one is going to accuse any nation of that stuff then we need to go the right type of sources not wikipedia. an i'm sure those christians were well treated by those ever God fearing muslims. not.

 

[zone]

question, if the illunamati are satanic, then many of the founders were in out this judeo-christian law conspiracy. correct? that means that we christians that hold to the idea that the u.s was and is a christian nation are wrong, when in fact the govt is pro beast of revalations?

hi jason:
your Christian forefathers fought the battle from the very beginning to build a Christian nation. and the foundation was laid. but at the same time, the dark side was also building (anyone can see that even in the architecture). this is nothing surprising, the god of this world is permitted to build antichrist's kingdom: all things must be fulfilled. this epic struggle is going on around the world, nations change and some lose what they had while others gain strength.

unfortunately the USA was conquered from within. the enemies of Christ have made an endrun around your constitution (their own writings declare they would have to do this). your earliest Presidents warned repeatedly that it was happening. you were betrayed when control of your money was given to international bankers. but that's okay...these things must come to pass. come out of Babylon (meaning confusion in this sense i use it) and be separate. your country is fighting wars for the beast, unjust wars for drugs and oil and land.

America has been conquered, by stealth. the destruction of Christian monuments, symbols, prayer in schools; the destruction of the family unit; the free love & drugs - these things have been done by design. all around the world. it's the oldest trick in the book: every tyrant in the world uses the same playbook. America will be disarmed and subdued when the time comes. your treasury has been plundered and you have been sold like slaves.

you have been handed over to the Global Powers, your people just don't know it yet (some do). we are all going into a worldwide tyrannical dictatorship which will culminate in a Religious Theocracy ultimately ruling. all the consolidation of power we see taking place is the beast rising to power (it will be a new kind of Fascism/Communism). but there is an Harlot who will and is actually riding that Beast.

these things must come to pass.

regards,
zone.

 

[jasoncran]

of course, my issue with these guys isnt that isreal is that harlot , but they wont ever return to the christ. they dont see that part of the bible. only the other part. i do believe that isreal can be the harlot but lets be honest i think that the u.n, with the ideas that it has more anti christ ideals then the state of isreal does. all nations are going to come together when the time is right and worship the beast.

 

[zone]

of course, my issue with these guys isnt that isreal is that harlot , but they wont ever return to the christ. they dont see that part of the bible. only the other part. i do believe that isreal can be the harlot but lets be honest i think that the u.n, with the ideas that it has more anti christ ideals then the state of isreal does. all nations are going to come together when the time is right and worship the beast.

i personally after all my studies, have come to the inescapable conclusion that JERUSALEM is the Mother of Harlots. Jesus told Jerusalem she would remain DESOLATE (empty, void, filled with chaos and all the things that happen when God has withdrawn Himself), until they shall say Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.

he came unto His own, and they received Him not (nationally), but some did, obviously! only a remnant shall be saved: but that remnant will be a representation of the Whole House of Israel (all twelve tribes, even wicked Dan in the end). some of the remnant we know as the apostles and disciples of the first Church. and untold numbers have come to their Saviour since that time.

the gentiles were brought in, but this was the mystery of Ephesians - God purposed to do it from the Beginning. there are no second chances for anyone regarding their death in belief or unbelief. God Has Accomplished and Fulfilled all things in Christ, and there is no other Name by which men may be saved.

the son of perdition in 2 Thessalonians 2 (Judas was a type, as was apostate Solomon) must come first, before The Lord returns. he must present himself as the jewish mosiach and rule from Jerusalem: and he will, make no mistake about it. he'll claim descent through Solomon, but Jesus did not come through Solomon, he came through David through Nathan to Heli and Mary. (the masons, for one esoteric group are obsessed with Solomon - research the so-called star of david)

the global power structure we see (consolidation of global power, loss of national sovergenties, the UN; these are just the power grab. the UN and others must take control of the world through the appearance of benevolence and "equality">. marxism. that power will be exercised in the enforcement of The Noahide Laws for gentiles, and "Torah/Rabbinic Talmudism for jews. the Pharisees are gaining the Seat of Moses again. the true children of Israel have ALWAYS been persecuted by the antichrist spirit, as are christians and all others. i think the pharisees are not jews at all, but are Edomites (Esau) >> the Herod kinglines were. i think this will be the 8th Herod.

anyone who claims to be a jew (a child of God in Covenant with Him) yet follows the Babylonian Talmud and the other systems of the Pharisees will be in grave grave danger of never coming to the truth, since there is no truth in those books or in that system of Judaism. it is a wicked hybrid religion which is basically witchcraft. The Talmud contains the unpardonable sin, and many are committing it today, and teaching others the same. that's why Jesus condemned the Pharisees saying they searched the world for a convert, then made him a two-fold child of hell. by their Babylonian Oral Traditions (the same as the Mystery Religions/Masonry etc - they're working together) Jesus said they made the Word of God of none effect. so, there is NO TRUTH IN THEM.

if you are not familiar with the unpardonable sin, i can post it here for you. from their texts.

the true Israelites who are faithful yet remain blinded are faithful to Moses and the prophets and reject the rest: they are persecuted and are not many in number. i pray for them, that they come to Christ in simplicity of Faith, by Grace.

regards,
zone

 

[jasoncran]

is the very ten commandments that well are the same as the noahide laws demonic to you.

i read that link and well we christians are commanded to do much of the same. are we to take the lord name in vain, and are we to murder and also to fornicate etc.

or what does the lord say? that we are to do the first and second all esle will fall in place.

those noahide links you gave didnt mention that they wanted to rule the world only to live out their faith.

i dont think you understand that we have much in common with the jew that actually practices his faith. the only difference is that we can and an empowered to fulfill them by the blood of christ and that we know we arent perfect enough to fulfill the law. nowhere in the nt is the very idea of law negated just the curse and the need to follow the sacrifices. we are to follow the ten commandments are we not.