National Israel is cursed forever !

[GodspromisesRyes]

if its new jerusalem, then reconcile that with the last two chapters of revalation. as new jerusalem is in heaven at present and not the earth.

We are in heaven jason NOW.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Phl 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

This is a spiritual truth. And the "mansion" that Jesus is preparing for us in heaven is OUR IMMORTAL INNCORRUPTABLE bodies that we will put on when we are " changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye" that is the new jerusalem.

2Cr 5:1 ¶ For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Cr 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Cr 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Cr 5:4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Cr 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.


Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

WE are the heavenly jerusalem! It is not a literal building it is US clothed in immortatlity and incorruption.

Rev 21:9 ¶ And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

He is going to show him the LAMBS WIFE the BRIDE

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

HOLY JERUSALEM is the BRIDE the LAMBS WIFE he is shown AMEN

Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Having the glory of God! We are the ones promised that we will be glorified together with Christ.

 

[adam332]

if its new jerusalem, then reconcile that with the last two chapters of revalation. as new jerusalem is in heaven at present and not the earth.

I'm not sure what you want me to reconcile. I completely agree that New Jerusalem is in heaven. I also believe that it will not be on Earth until after the millennium. I never claimed that New Jerusalem is currently on Earth, so we must have some mis-communication somewhere.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Also it should be noted, that when the branches from the wild olive tree [ Gentiles] were grafted into the good olive tree [ elect Israel] it did not mean that the gentiles had to pack up their belongings and move to the middle east. Thats because this is not a matter of earthly, material, fleshly Israel, but spiritual and heavenly Israel, the Israel of God.

To be grafeted into Israel was not literial national Israel who had been broken off of Elect Israel, but being grafted into Elect Israel [ spiritually].

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Also it should be noted, that when the branches from the wild olive tree [ Gentiles] were grafted into the good olive tree [ elect Israel] it did not mean that the gentiles had to pack up their belongings and move to the middle east. Thats because this is not a matter of earthly, material, fleshly Israel, but spiritual and heavenly Israel, the Israel of God.

To be grafeted into Israel was not literial national Israel who had been broken off of Elect Israel, but being grafted into Elect Israel [ spiritually].

I think that it also helps to realize that things are not always how they have been made to look. God gave abraham the promised land (physical) but abraham considered himself a stranger and foreigner even in that physical land because he waited for the heavenly city!He was given physical promises and spiritual promises. People are always looking at the LAND issue and thinking about it forever, the problem is the scriptures are clear from gen to rev that the righteous, the saints, the faithful, the meek INHERIT THE WHOLE EARTH! not just the little plot of land in physical israel. And the truth is that no one who is not righteous inherits anything!

the physical is always just a pointer to the spiritual. And for some reason alot of christians have been given the idea that spiritual truths, or understanding scripture in the spirit is somehow not real, when for us we should be the ones to realize IT IS WHAT IS REAL and ETERNAL.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Also it should be noted, that when the branches from the wild olive tree [ Gentiles] were grafted into the good olive tree [ elect Israel] it did not mean that the gentiles had to pack up their belongings and move to the middle east. Thats because this is not a matter of earthly, material, fleshly Israel, but spiritual and heavenly Israel, the Israel of God.

To be grafeted into Israel was not literial national Israel who had been broken off of Elect Israel, but being grafted into Elect Israel [ spiritually].

I think that it also helps to realize that things are not always how they have been made to look. God gave abraham the promised land (physical) but abraham considered himself a stranger and foreigner even in that physical land because he waited for the heavenly city!He was given physical promises and spiritual promises. People are always looking at the LAND issue and thinking about it forever, the problem is the scriptures are clear from gen to rev that the righteous, the saints, the faithful, the meek INHERIT THE WHOLE EARTH! not just the little plot of land in physical israel. And the truth is that no one who is not righteous inherits anything!

the physical is always just a pointer to the spiritual. And for some reason alot of christians have been given the idea that spiritual truths, or understanding scripture in the spirit is somehow not real, when for us we should be the ones to realize IT IS WHAT IS REAL and ETERNAL.

You have made some valid points.

 

[stranger]

GodspromisesRyes wrote:

well I am not sure what is so hard about it. What promises did we inherit in Christ? Who were those promises given to? Well the first messianic promise was given to adam and eve, but even after that we see that the promise- before the law- was given to ABRAHAM.- In Christ we are told that WE are the children of abraham.Rom 4:13 ¶ For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression. 16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

If abraham is not the church then how is he our Father? How did he knowingly await the same holy city heavenly city as we and be partaker of it made perfect in us.
Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The gospel promises were given to abraham and His seed. He was saved by faith just as we are, He waited for the same thing that we obtain in Christ and Christ coming and salvation being by faith was fulfillment of what was promised to Him. Surely He is not sepeate from us, the promise was to abraham- and His seed Christ which we are now in and we inherit the same promise.

Hi GodspromisesRyes,

Thanks for the reply. I'm starting to see the differences in our respective approaches a little more clearly. I agree that we are children of Abraham - but as a Messianic Jew once pointed out to me - there are children of Abraham by promise (gentiles) and children of Abraham by promise and bloodline (Jews). Often the following verse is used to eliminate the distinction between Jew and Gentiles (Greeks).

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I understand this to mean that jews and Gentiles (Greeks) are united in Christ and on equal footing. Both share all the benefits of the gospel, faith etc. I don't see it meaning that being in Christ means the Jew stops being a Jew or the Greeks/Gentiles stops being a Greek/Gentile.

To summarise, I agree we are all the children of Abraham by promise. We inherit the promises and benefits of the Gospel...

Where you have assumed only one identity in the children of Abraham I assume there is two : Jews and Gentiles. This marks the difference in how we read scripture.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

stranger- it is true that there are jews by bloodline who are children of abraham because of faith and gentiles by bloodline who are children of abraham by faith but there is no longer any differnce between us. We are made one- we inherit the same promises, we are of the same body, we both die to the flesh and are alive in the Spirit and Paul says that it is US regardless of flesh- who are circumsied in heart that are the jews.

 

[savedbygrace57]

rom 11:18

rom 11:

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

We gentile believers should not boast about our being grafted into Covenant Israel [ the election of grace], for it was not because we were better than they, or more in tune with God than they, but simply because we were blessed to be chosen in Christ too before the foundation of the world, we were too, foreknown of God.

acts 15:

13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:


14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

It is because we were chosen in the root [Jesus christ] that this privilege comes to us gentiles

In vs 16 of acts 15 above, the tabernacle of David is being equated to the calling in of the elect gentiles, this again confirms the oneness of the people of God and the Covenant Israel being comprised of both jews and gentiles who were chosen in the root, Jesus christ before the foundation of the world.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

savedbygrace AMEN!
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.


Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

 

[stranger]

stranger- it is true that there are jews by bloodline who are children of abraham because of faith and gentiles by bloodline who are children of abraham by faith but there is no longer any differnce between us. We are made one- we inherit the same promises, we are of the same body, we both die to the flesh and are alive in the Spirit and Paul says that it is US regardless of flesh- who are circumsied in heart that are the jews.

Hi GodspromisesRyes,

Not sure if you intended to say 'gentiles by bloodline who are children of abraham by faith' or whether this was a typo and you intended 'gentiles who are children of abraham by faith' ?

I have been arguing for gentiles being children of Abraham by promise/faith but not by bloodline. The long and short of it is that gentiles were not literally descended from Abraham. If this presupposition is wrong my later arguments fall like a row of dominos. I'm interested in how you progress to your present position step by step and this is a good a place to start as any.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Hi GodspromisesRyes,

Not sure if you intended to say 'gentiles by bloodline who are children of abraham by faith' or whether this was a typo and you intended 'gentiles who are children of abraham by faith' ?

I have been arguing for gentiles being children of Abraham by promise/faith but not by bloodline. The long and short of it is that gentiles were not literally descended from Abraham. If this presupposition is wrong my later arguments fall like a row of dominos. I'm interested in how you progress to your present position step by step and this is a good a place to start as any.

The point that I am getting to stranger is that God does not consider those who are unbelievers, but the flesh and bloodline of abraham to be abrahams children.- He considers those who walk by faith in Christ Jesus and who do the works of abraham, to be abrahams children. There is not a point in seperating the body of Christ into those beleivers who are messianic jews and those who are gentiles- in the flesh.We are made one. The flesh profits nothing.

 

[savedbygrace57]

stranger- it is true that there are jews by bloodline who are children of abraham because of faith and gentiles by bloodline who are children of abraham by faith but there is no longer any differnce between us. We are made one- we inherit the same promises, we are of the same body, we both die to the flesh and are alive in the Spirit and Paul says that it is US regardless of flesh- who are circumsied in heart that are the jews.

Hi GodspromisesRyes,

Not sure if you intended to say 'gentiles by bloodline who are children of abraham by faith' or whether this was a typo and you intended 'gentiles who are children of abraham by faith' ?

I have been arguing for gentiles being children of Abraham by promise/faith but not by bloodline. The long and short of it is that gentiles were not literally descended from Abraham. If this presupposition is wrong my later arguments fall like a row of dominos. I'm interested in how you progress to your present position step by step and this is a good a place to start as any.

The children of Abraham by bloodline only are not the children of God. Rom 9:


7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Just to be a mere jew by blood does not make one a child of God, it is just that simple.

 

[stranger]

Hi GodspromisesRyes,

Not sure if you intended to say 'gentiles by bloodline who are children of abraham by faith' or whether this was a typo and you intended 'gentiles who are children of abraham by faith' ?

I have been arguing for gentiles being children of Abraham by promise/faith but not by bloodline. The long and short of it is that gentiles were not literally descended from Abraham. If this presupposition is wrong my later arguments fall like a row of dominos. I'm interested in how you progress to your present position step by step and this is a good a place to start as any.

The point that I am getting to stranger is that God does not consider those who are unbelievers, but the flesh and bloodline of abraham to be abrahams children.- He considers those who walk by faith in Christ Jesus and who do the works of abraham, to be abrahams children. There is not a point in seperating the body of Christ into those beleivers who are messianic jews and those who are gentiles- in the flesh.We are made one. The flesh profits nothing.

Hi GodspromisesRyes,

Thanks for your reply. OK, I can see your overriding concern is about 'unbelieving Jews' sneaking into the equation, though I was referring to gentile believers not Jews.

Setting aside ALL consideration of unbelievers (whether Jews or Gentiles); and considering believers ONLY here are two basic definitions:

1. There are children of Abraham by promise/faith and bloodline -Jewish believers
2. There are children of Abraham by promise/faith - Gentile believers

Do you agree or disagree with definitions 1 and 2?

 

[stranger]

stranger- it is true that there are jews by bloodline who are children of abraham because of faith and gentiles by bloodline who are children of abraham by faith but there is no longer any differnce between us. We are made one- we inherit the same promises, we are of the same body, we both die to the flesh and are alive in the Spirit and Paul says that it is US regardless of flesh- who are circumsied in heart that are the jews.

Hi GodspromisesRyes,

Not sure if you intended to say 'gentiles by bloodline who are children of abraham by faith' or whether this was a typo and you intended 'gentiles who are children of abraham by faith' ?

I have been arguing for gentiles being children of Abraham by promise/faith but not by bloodline. The long and short of it is that gentiles were not literally descended from Abraham. If this presupposition is wrong my later arguments fall like a row of dominos. I'm interested in how you progress to your present position step by step and this is a good a place to start as any.

The children of Abraham by bloodline only are not the children of God. Rom 9:


7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Just to be a mere jew by blood does not make one a child of God, it is just that simple.

Hi savedbygrace57,

Thanks for your reply. I can see your overall concerns are the same as GodspromisesRyes' though I was referring to gentile believers, not Jews, as seen in quoted portion of this post 'stranger wrote...'

Here is a fresh attempt. Setting aside ALL consideration of unbelievers (whether Jews or Gentiles); and considering believers ONLY here are two basic definitions:

1. There are children of Abraham by promise/faith and bloodline -Jewish believers
2. There are children of Abraham by promise/faith - Gentile believers

Do you agree or disagree with definitions 1 and 2?

 

[savedbygrace57]

The children of abraham manifested by Faith in Christ ,whether jew or gentile are one Family, The True Israel. This is the Israel that Jesus was a Saviour unto acts 13:

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

 

[jasoncran]

that doesnt mean that the prophecy ( of the return)means that ot sacrifices will be accepted. that prophecy simply means that god is allowing the hebrew to return to his land , and that in the end times they hebrew as a whole will return to christ and witness(144,000) first to the whole world. the rest convert and end then the anti-christ will attack that holycity.

i simply dont a see a spritural jerusalem, when there a lot of descriptions of battles in locations that are called the same today. for if it was just a simple literary device then why doenst just say that my people will be killed here or there.

but it doenst.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Ladies and Gentlemen, This is a very simple concept I am showing here, just because National Israel has lost her National Covenant relationship with God, never to have it again, that does not mean that some ethnic jews Will not come to Faith in Christ, for God had a election of grace in all Nations to include National Israel.

But it is those who believe that God will save a people based upon race, those are promoting a type of racism.

The word racism in our english dictionary means:


The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

Its very subtle, but many ethnic jews as well as others, believe that God favors them over and above other people groups, based upon race, that is what the bible calls respect of persons, and that is not of God.

God does favor some over others, but its not based upon race, but grace.

 

[Sinthesis]

Ladies and Gentlemen, This is a very simple concept I am showing here, just because National Israel has lost her National Covenant relationship with God, never to have it again, that does not mean that some ethnic jews Will not come to Faith in Christ, for God had a election of grace in all Nations to include National Israel.

But it is those who believe that God will save a people based upon race, those are promoting a type of racism.

The word racism in our english dictionary means:


The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

Its very subtle, but many ethnic jews as well as others, believe that God favors them over and above other people groups, based upon race, that is what the bible calls respect of persons, and that is not of God.

God does favor some over others, but its not based upon race, but grace.

But do you believe the obverse is true?

i.e.

But it is those who believe that God will curse a people based upon race, those are promoting a type of racism.

-or...

The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is inferior to others.

 

[savedbygrace57]

But it is those who believe that God will curse a people based upon race, those are promoting a type of racism.

No all nationalities of people are cursed by the law outside of Christ, to include jews. Matt 25:


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Also, all other nations did not have the advantage that the jews had by that being the nation that Christ according to the flesh came, so by in large, that nation is even more culpable than any other nation for their wickedness.

 

[Sinthesis]

But it is those who believe that God will curse a people based upon race, those are promoting a type of racism.

No all nationalities of people are cursed by the law outside of Christ, to include jews. Matt 25:


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Also, all other nations did not have the advantage that the jews had by that being the nation that Christ according to the flesh came, so by in large, that nation is even more culpable than any other nation for their wickedness.

Do you honestly believe any other nation would have done better?