National Israel is cursed forever !

[savedbygrace57]

But it is those who believe that God will curse a people based upon race, those are promoting a type of racism.

No all nationalities of people are cursed by the law outside of Christ, to include jews. Matt 25:


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Also, all other nations did not have the advantage that the jews had by that being the nation that Christ according to the flesh came, so by in large, that nation is even more culpable than any other nation for their wickedness.

Do you honestly believe any other nation would have done better?

We are not talking about any other nation, but the one God chose for that purpose.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Salvation is based upon the election [in christ] of Grace. rom 11:

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for [Salvation]; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The election hath obtained it ! Obtained what ? 2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[savedbygrace57]

rom 11:

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.


Paul here warns the gentiles of becoming high minded about their position in Covenant Israel, for it was only because of God given Faith in Christ that they were so grafted in with those ethnic jews who likewise had Faith God given Faith.

This portion of scripture if properly understood, gives us to understand that belief in or Faith in Christ is not a natural thing, but it is supernaturally given by the power of God. 1 pet 1:5

Phil 1:

29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Its not a matter of free choice or freewill to believe in Christ, but it is a matter of free grace, Sovereign grace as to who has Faith unto salvation.

eph 2:

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Sinthesis]

Cursed? Or Beloved!

• Rom 11:28 - As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

[jasoncran]

God promised them to return. if we were to remove all americans from america, how many generations would recall the constitution and the culture, after the fact.

odd when modern hebrew is similiar to ancient hebrew and the culture is retained for the most part.

never mind the miraculious victory in the six day war, isreal had their pants down at first.

 

[veteran]

So our Heavenly Father lied when He said this through His servant Moses?


Deut 7:6-10
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because He would keep the oath which He had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, He is God, the faithful God, Which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate Him to their face, to destroy them: He will not be slack to him that hateth Him, He will repay him to his face.
(KJV)

What Apostle Paul was teaching in Scripture like Romans 9 & 11, was how God has not forgotten His people Israel which He did foreknow just because some didn't believe. This is why Paul speaks of a remnant of the seed of Israel which God had preserved in Elijah's day, and that Paul said existed in his day. The idea is there will ALWAYS be a remnant of flesh Israel that will be faithful and believe, regardless of others that refuse.

The Faith on Christ by Gentiles in NO WAY can take away from His promise to flesh Israel, to that remnant of Israel that has believed. And it certainly does not show a curse upon that flesh remnant of Israel that has always existed, and has believed on Christ Jesus. The curse is upon those who refuse Christ, and those who do not follow His commandments, of both unbelieving Gentiles and unbelieving Israel. That certainly DOES NOT apply to all the seed of Israel, not even the majority of flesh Israel, for the Jews only represent three tribes of original Israel.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vet:

The Faith on Christ by Gentiles in NO WAY can take away from His promise to flesh Israel

Flesh Israel is not God's children !

rom 9:

8That is, They [Israel orAbrahams seed] which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:

You are talking about people who have no relationship with God.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

The promises were all IN Christ. The promises are not to the fleshly seed of anyone.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The promises are to CHRIST, and to the children of abraham who are such by faith in CHRIST to whom all the promises belong.

The jews who do believe in Christ Jesus recieve the promises because they are spiritual seed of abraham by faith in Christ, not because they are a physical seed. The same way that us gentile believers in Christ recieve the promises by faith.

This is not about gentiles taking away promises of a fleshly seed- it is about the promises being made with those who Believe in Christ to whom belong those promises. We are not taking anything away from fleshly people, because those who are of the flesh who are not born again have no promises and those jews who are the seed of abraham by flesh but have believed enter into the same promises as we do, not differnt ones because they are flesh.

We have to remember that this is not a new body of people here- Those of them who did not believe were cut off and we who God has saved of trhe gentiles were GRAFTED IN TO THEM that did believe. WE were added to THEM and the covenants and promises, while those of them who did not believe were disqualified and cut off.

The body of Gods people being left- the true holy nation, true Israel are all faithful believers of all flesh.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The jews who do believe in Christ Jesus recieve the promises because they are spiritual seed of abraham by faith in Christ, not because they are a physical seed. The same way that us gentile believers in Christ recieve the promises by faith.

You are on the right track with this statement.

 

[savedbygrace57]

I would like to go back to a point in rom 11:

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Well because of unbelief they were broken off, that is, the natural branches that belonged to covenant Israel, Now even though unbelief is reprehensible, it nevertheless is determined solely by the Sovereignty of God, that is what determines who shall believe God and His word, and who shall not believe. Because of the Fall, when satan was able to deceive eve into unbelief of what God had said, God said if thou eat, thou shalt surely die, and satan said, thou shalt not surely die [Gen 3:3-4], because of this man was judged by God as a unbeliever, we were concluded or consigned under unbelief..


rom 11:

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The word concluded in the greek means:

to shut up together, enclose
of a shoal of fishes in a net
to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

We are by nature shut up in unbelief, completely enclosed by it. God has hopelessly shut up all into unbelief or disobedience, by nature.

Now why does man think he has a freewill choice to reverse this and become obedient or a believer in Christ ? Proud man believes he can undo what God has done ! but lets look at ecc 7:

13Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

rev 3:

7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

It has to be given [ not offered] from heaven to believe on Christ and or the the things of God; it is not something that comes naturally see 1 cor 2:14 & phil 1:29

Paul tells the gentiles, be not high minded, but rather fear, because ye stand by Faith, and Faith is not our own. This verse if properly understood, should give us to know that Faith is not of man, or why would Paul make such a statement as this ? It is because standing by Faith is nothing less than standing by the power of God 1 pet 1:5, for faith in us is maintained by God's power. Remember when Jesus told peter Lk 22:32

But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

I infer from this that Jesus prayed for Peter's faith to be kept by the power of God, which incident peter probably had in mind when He penned 1 pet 1 5. Faith is God given and God sustained. Notice rom 14:

Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

For clearly, its God who causes one by His power to stand by Faith; so the gentiles must not boast against the jews who have been broken off, if so, then we are actually by implication saying that we are the ones responsible for our being grafted in, and not the root that bore us, which is Christ; It is because of our election in Christ, our Head, that He communicates o us His life, and His Faith, that is the faith of the Son of God gal 2:

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[jasoncran]

how then is the the abomonation of desolation spoken by the lord to Jews of that day. work out if isreal isnt a state again in the end times?

i am not teaching nor preaching two dispentional gospels or suchlike, just that isreal returns and the anti-christs tricks them and they then cry out to the real messiah and repent and are saved.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

saved amen to that last post!!!!


jason that is kinda a whole diff topic, but my answer to you would be that most of what you just said is tradition and not scripture. but maybe you could make another topic on it???

 

[jasoncran]

saved amen to that last post!!!!


jason that is kinda a whole diff topic, but my answer to you would be that most of what you just said is tradition and not scripture. but maybe you could make another topic on it???

it relates as some here think that lord has forgotten his people, the jew. no he hasnt, you gentiles are provoking the jew to repent. we are in the time of the gentiles. but in the trib, near the end of the trib the nation of isreal accepts the messiah. that was the promise given and prophecied.

the lord has simply just set aside isreal, and will deal with them later and return to cause them calamity and draw them in.

 

[Sinthesis]

saved amen to that last post!!!!


jason that is kinda a whole diff topic, but my answer to you would be that most of what you just said is tradition and not scripture. but maybe you could make another topic on it???

it relates as some here think that lord has forgotten his people, the jew. no he hasnt, you gentiles are provoking the jew to repent. we are in the time of the gentiles. but in the trib, near the end of the trib the nation of isreal accepts the messiah. that was the promise given and prophecied.

the lord has simply just set aside isreal, and will deal with them later and return to cause them calamity and draw them in.

Calamity worse than that of 70AD? No. For the most part, Jews of today are the foolish virgins. This does not mean they are damned, only that the fools choose to still live under the first covenant, as they are blind to the new one.

 

[jasoncran]

saved amen to that last post!!!!


jason that is kinda a whole diff topic, but my answer to you would be that most of what you just said is tradition and not scripture. but maybe you could make another topic on it???

it relates as some here think that lord has forgotten his people, the jew. no he hasnt, you gentiles are provoking the jew to repent. we are in the time of the gentiles. but in the trib, near the end of the trib the nation of isreal accepts the messiah. that was the promise given and prophecied.

the lord has simply just set aside isreal, and will deal with them later and return to cause them calamity and draw them in.

Calamity worse than that of 70AD? No. For the most part, Jews of today are the foolish virgins. This does not mean they are damned, only that the fools choose to still live under the first covenant, as they are blind to the new one.

uh,yes. the whole world suffers, and many jews die. think about in jerusalem in 70 ad only less then 200000 were killed compared to a remnant of isreal and israel of today i think has 10 million.

the tribulation is for all men ,not just the jew. but isreal does exist again as a nation. see the defense of that by veteran.

 

[man-ofGod]

Did you ever read any Old Testament, like Isaiah or Ezekiel. Both have many prophesies about Israel, and its future restoration. Wherever you learned that Israel has no future restoration you need to unlearn it, and get your theology straight.

There is certainly a future restoration of Israel; however, the question I put to you is, “Who is Israel?†Certainly common interpretation does not even ask that question, but assumes to know the answer. The answer is, according to common interpretation, those who are circumcised of the flesh or to be even clearer, the literal modern day Jews. The circumcision of the flesh was a perpetual covenant that God made with the Jews. According to scripture, this was the sign of the covenant God gave to the Jews throughout their generations.

If circumcision of the flesh applies to Israel in the last days, why did Paul write that “there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.†Clearly this verse only proves that there is something more to being a Jew/Israelite then a physical trait. There has to be something more apparent and more important to God then just the blood that may run in someone’s veins –although you have to question if there are any true decedents of the bloodline given that a genealogy has not been kept since Jesus’ time, not to mention the mixing of the bloodline before, during, and after Jesus’ time.

So then, who is Israel? God through his word does not leave this question unanswered. The literal Jews, who alone had the true light, were called Israel, but in addition to this, people who were not literal decedents of Jacob were also grafted into Israel if they accepted the God of Israel. Jer 31:33 makes it clear that the new covenant will be with the house of Jacob and the house of Judah. If you are not in either of these camps, then you do not partake in the new covenant that Christ established in 31 A.D. Therefore, the word Israel, according to scripture, can only be seen to have spiritual connotation.

Once you accept this point, scripture makes a lot more sense especially when you consider prophecy who secular and some Christian universities would have you believe that you must be a scholar to understand.

 

[veteran]

vet:

The Faith on Christ by Gentiles in NO WAY can take away from His promise to flesh Israel

Flesh Israel is not God's children !

rom 9:

8That is, They [Israel orAbrahams seed] which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:

You are talking about people who have no relationship with God.

You're not heeding what God's Word says, for Romans 11:1-5 declares God reserved an elect of the SEED of Israel to Himself back in Elijah's days, even to Apostle Paul's days. Your Dispensationalist interpretation of Romans 9:8 tries to change the Rom.11:1-5 Scripture. Get over it, the promises were first given to Israel by God.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

it relates as some here think that lord has forgotten his people, the jew. no he hasnt, you gentiles are provoking the jew to repent. we are in the time of the gentiles. but in the trib, near the end of the trib the nation of isreal accepts the messiah. that was the promise given and prophecied.

the lord has simply just set aside isreal, and will deal with them later and return to cause them calamity and draw them in.

I am not saying that God has forgotten the jews at all, He is saving and will save a remnant of him, but that is who He said He would save- A REMNANT. It is not the entire physical nation of Israel that will believe but a remnant of them who will be grafted back in and will be united again with beleivers of all ages including us. This is happening already now, but will be in larger numbers in the trib.

 

[jasoncran]

it relates as some here think that lord has forgotten his people, the jew. no he hasnt, you gentiles are provoking the jew to repent. we are in the time of the gentiles. but in the trib, near the end of the trib the nation of isreal accepts the messiah. that was the promise given and prophecied.

the lord has simply just set aside isreal, and will deal with them later and return to cause them calamity and draw them in.

I am not saying that God has forgotten the jews at all, He is saving and will save a remnant of him, but that is who He said He would save- A REMNANT. It is not the entire physical nation of Israel that will believe but a remnant of them who will be grafted back in and will be united again with beleivers of all ages including us. This is happening already now, but will be in larger numbers in the trib.

ah, but isreal is land that will be occupied by the jews and have jesus ruling from there in the millenium.

that much we do know, vet has posted all those.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

it relates as some here think that lord has forgotten his people, the jew. no he hasnt, you gentiles are provoking the jew to repent. we are in the time of the gentiles. but in the trib, near the end of the trib the nation of isreal accepts the messiah. that was the promise given and prophecied.

the lord has simply just set aside isreal, and will deal with them later and return to cause them calamity and draw them in.

I am not saying that God has forgotten the jews at all, He is saving and will save a remnant of him, but that is who He said He would save- A REMNANT. It is not the entire physical nation of Israel that will believe but a remnant of them who will be grafted back in and will be united again with beleivers of all ages including us. This is happening already now, but will be in larger numbers in the trib.

ah, but isreal is land that will be occupied by the jews and have jesus ruling from there in the millenium.

that much we do know, vet has posted all those.

not at all true. Israel is believers- WE ARE LAND. Israel was Israel before they were in the land, when they were in the wilderness when they were in egypt when they were in babylon. Israel is people and God says that we are His land.
1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building. (husbandry = tilled land)

Even abraham was not willing to be content with the physical land over there but knew that was not the real promise, what He waited for was a heavenly city whose builder and maker is God.
Hbr 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Hbr 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.

Abraham was not even willing to settle there as if he owned it, he stayed a stranger there and looked for the heavenly promise.- No one inherits anything outside of Christ because all the promises are In him.

The promises to those righteous in Christ are that the meek- the saints inherit the earth

Psa 25:12 What man [is] he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way [that] he shall choose.
Psa 25:13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Psa 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psa 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Mat 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.