New Jerusalem

[for_his_glory]

This is required to get a high school degree in the state I live in. You have to read your Biology book, which I thank God for the opportunity to be able to study science and learn more about God's creation.

Of course there have been court battles over this issue. I read my son's Biology book along with him when he was in High School. I graduated in 1970 so there have been a lot of revisions to the text book over the years.

My son said people want to debate the issue at school. I told him to just read your book and stay away from them.

This is all well and good, but we are straying away from the OP which is about the New Jerusalem. I'm not much into biology and the sciences and will leave that to the Science forum.

 

[Elijah7777]

I never thought of this before, but it could be that valley is the Garden of Eden that has laid under ground all these years. Something to think about.

Eden was situated between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. Abraham is recognized as the first Hebrew, which means he was the first to cross over the river to the other side. This suggests that Eden is not geographically close to the Mount of Olives. Science, particularly biology, provides significant insights into the Garden of Eden, helping us deepen our understanding of the Bible. In fact, every word in Genesis could warrant an entire book to fully explore its depth.

Genesis is rich with meaning, history, symbolism, and theology—it serves as the foundation for so much. Scholars, theologians, and readers have spent centuries unraveling its layers, yet there is always more to uncover.

If you're seeking a comparison between Eden and the New Jerusalem, you may be tackling an enormous subject, especially if you have limited knowledge of both. Without scientific inquiry, particularly in fields like archaeology and anthropology, it would be difficult to form a comprehensive understanding of Eden. To grasp government, one might study political science, law, economics, history, and philosophy—these disciplines examine how governments function, how policies are formulated, and how societies are structured.

The New Jerusalem is intrinsically connected to the Kingdom of God. In the beginning, David was the reigning king, and Jesus inherits the Kingdom from him. Naturally, this point remains a source of theological debate and even conflict between the descendants of Hagar and Sarah—the sons of servitude versus the sons of freedom.

I truly appreciate you keeping the discussion focused. If you wish to explore Jerusalem and Eden, these are vast areas of study. To make the topic more manageable, what specific aspects would you like to examine for comparison?

Biology and political science may seem unrelated at first, but they share intriguing parallels. Both fields study systems—biology focuses on living organisms and ecosystems, while political science analyzes governmental structures and societal dynamics. Here are some ways they intersect:

• Systems & Structures: Just as biology studies the organization of life, political science examines the frameworks of governance.
• Adaptation & Evolution: In biology, species evolve to survive, whereas political systems adapt over time in response to social and economic shifts.
• Interdependence: Organisms rely on their environment, just as nations depend on international relations, economic trade, and alliances.
• Decision-Making & Behavior: Biology explores how organisms react to stimuli, much like political science examines human behavior in governance and policymaking.

 

[Elijah7777]

Then we probably need to get back to the opening post

We can look at the New Jerusalem if you want. The New Jerusalem is a concept from the Bible, particularly in the book of Revelation, where it represents the ultimate fulfillment of God's kingdom—a holy city that descends from heaven to the new earth2. It symbolizes the restoration of God's presence among His people, free from sin, suffering, and death.

Key Features of the New Jerusalem:​

• A Holy City: Described as a radiant, glorious place where God dwells with His people.
• No More Pain or Death: It is a place of eternal peace, where sorrow and suffering no longer exist.
• Magnificent Structure: The city is depicted as having walls of jasper, gates of pearl, and streets of pure gold.
• No Need for a Temple: Unlike earthly Jerusalem, the New Jerusalem has no temple because God and the Lamb (Jesus) are its center.
• The Tree of Life & River of Life: Echoing Eden, the city contains the Tree of Life, bringing healing to the nations, and a river flowing from God's throne.

Some interpretations see the New Jerusalem as a literal city, while others view it as a symbol of God's redeemed people living in perfect unity with Him

 

[for_his_glory]

Eden was situated between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. Abraham is recognized as the first Hebrew, which means he was the first to cross over the river to the other side. This suggests that Eden is not geographically close to the Mount of Olives. Science, particularly biology, provides significant insights into the Garden of Eden, helping us deepen our understanding of the Bible. In fact, every word in Genesis could warrant an entire book to fully explore its depth.

Genesis is rich with meaning, history, symbolism, and theology—it serves as the foundation for so much. Scholars, theologians, and readers have spent centuries unraveling its layers, yet there is always more to uncover.

If you're seeking a comparison between Eden and the New Jerusalem, you may be tackling an enormous subject, especially if you have limited knowledge of both. Without scientific inquiry, particularly in fields like archaeology and anthropology, it would be difficult to form a comprehensive understanding of Eden. To grasp government, one might study political science, law, economics, history, and philosophy—these disciplines examine how governments function, how policies are formulated, and how societies are structured.

The New Jerusalem is intrinsically connected to the Kingdom of God. In the beginning, David was the reigning king, and Jesus inherits the Kingdom from him. Naturally, this point remains a source of theological debate and even conflict between the descendants of Hagar and Sarah—the sons of servitude versus the sons of freedom.

I truly appreciate you keeping the discussion focused. If you wish to explore Jerusalem and Eden, these are vast areas of study. To make the topic more manageable, what specific aspects would you like to examine for comparison?

Biology and political science may seem unrelated at first, but they share intriguing parallels. Both fields study systems—biology focuses on living organisms and ecosystems, while political science analyzes governmental structures and societal dynamics. Here are some ways they intersect:

• Systems & Structures: Just as biology studies the organization of life, political science examines the frameworks of governance.
• Adaptation & Evolution: In biology, species evolve to survive, whereas political systems adapt over time in response to social and economic shifts.
• Interdependence: Organisms rely on their environment, just as nations depend on international relations, economic trade, and alliances.
• Decision-Making & Behavior: Biology explores how organisms react to stimuli, much like political science examines human behavior in governance and policymaking.

We do not need to be so scientifically or need biology to know what area the garden of Eden is located. Scripture gives us the sum of the location, but yet no one will ever know exactly where it is physically.

The location where the garden of Eden was is described in Genesis 2:10-14. Eden is located somewhere between Turkey, Iraq and Syria where the four heads of the rivers come from. Eastern gate of the Garden of Eden that the two Cherubim guard faces what would have been where the tower of Babel was built and Babylonian Empire becoming the Roman Empire that has always opposed Gods people.

The four rivers of Genesis 2:10-14
Pison in the land of Havilah
Gihon in the land of Ethiopia
Hiddekel east of Assyris
Euphrates in Turkey through Iraq (Iraq used to be the Babylonian Empire)

Scripture also teaches us about the New Jerusalem, Rev 21:1-5, and also about the elements of this present earth that will be burned up and the Earth made new again, 2Peter 3:10. According to PEW there are around 2.4 billion Christians worldwide and Jerusalem has a population of around 973,960. This does not mean that everyone that calls themself a Christian are truly Christ own. Considering how many around the world are truly Christ own that will be gathered up to Him on the last day, would a physical new Jerusalem in size hold everyone!

Rev 21:15-17 the measurements given by the angel are 1400 square miles. 1400 sq miles can hold hold up to approximately 28,000,000 people. There are many interpretations of a literal place or a symbolic place as I do not think anyone can know for a surety what the new Jerusalem will look like, even though scripture gives a description.

Pew Research Center - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Elijah7777]

Rev 21:15-17 the measurements given by the angel are 1400 square miles. 1400 sq miles can hold hold up to approximately 28,000,000 people. There are many interpretations of a literal place or a symbolic place as I do not think anyone can know for a surety what the new Jerusalem will look like, even though scripture gives a description.

1400 by 1400 by 1400 miles is the size of the Whole Arab Continental plate. We know what it looks like today. We do not know what it will look lile in the Kingdom age. I think I will have a condo there because we are told we will go to the feast of the tabernacles to pay our respect once a year. Of course my friends will be welcome to use my condo. They might even have their own room.

Musk does that today. He got tired of paying taxes and he sold all of his property. Now he just staying in the mansions of the rich people that he works with. Although I hear he is building a mansion for his family at the mega Tesla factory in Texas.

 

[for_his_glory]

1400 by 1400 by 1400 miles is the size of the Whole Arab Continental plate. We know what it looks like today. We do not know what it will look lile in the Kingdom age. I think I will have a condo there because we are told we will go to the feast of the tabernacles to pay our respect once a year. Of course my friends will be welcome to use my condo. They might even have their own room.

Musk does that today. He got tired of paying taxes and he sold all of his property. Now he just staying in the mansions of the rich people that he works with. Although I hear he is building a mansion for his family at the mega Tesla factory in Texas.

We have thoughts of what the new Jerusalem will be like, or look like, but we will not know in full until we are there. We can only imagine in our own mind, but have no clue of the Spiritual within the description as flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God. We have no clue what we will be or look like when we are changed into a new glorified body like that of Jesus.

IMO, the description given in Rev 21:9-27 could be more symbolic than being literal as that of the brilliance and the beauty of everything that we will see there as our focus needs to be dwelling with God and Christ Jesus rather than thinking about where we will live or what we will eat as there may be no need of either one. It's a possibility that it will be like the garden of Eden as all things being made new again.

 

[Elijah7777]

We have thoughts of what the new Jerusalem will be like, or look like, but we will not know in full until we are there.

Actually that is true of past and future in the Bible. Even looking back on Eden Science and History tells us a lot that we do not read about in our Bible. But people want to reject what Science and History tells us. People like to hold onto their traditional understanding even when new information comes along.

 

[Randy]

The New Jerusalem, the City of God ,is a city built by God that descends to earth. The testimony about this city was given twice in REV. I believe that clear testimony.

This is very clear to me.
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

 

[Elijah7777]

The testimony about this city was given twice in REV. I believe that clear testimony.

That is a big city. The New Jerusalem is described as 12,000 stadia in each dimension, which translates to about 4.8 million square kilometers. The Arabian Plate spans approximately 5 million square kilometers.

This means the Arabian Plate is roughly 200,000 square kilometers larger than the New Jerusalem. So they get airspace and mineral rights. But it looks like the shoreline is questionable. They will not be able to declare a three mile limit the way I am sure they would want.

 

[Elijah7777]

We can only imagine in our own mind

Actually the thing about AI is you can determine what is possible and what is not possible. Neil Degrasse loves to do that with science fiction. He tries to determine what could and what could not be. Take Noah for example. There is speculation that Noah built Göbekli Tepe, because of all the animals there. But the animals are wild and not the same as what the Bible tells us was on Noah's Ark. So we look at what is and what is not possible.

 

[Randy]

That is a big city. The New Jerusalem is described as 12,000 stadia in each dimension, which translates to about 4.8 million square kilometers. The Arabian Plate spans approximately 5 million square kilometers.

This means the Arabian Plate is roughly 200,000 square kilometers larger than the New Jerusalem. So they get airspace and mineral rights. But it looks like the shoreline is questionable. They will not be able to declare a three mile limit the way I am sure they would want.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

 

[Elijah7777]

there was no longer any sea.

You do know that a sea is not an ocean.

 

[for_his_glory]

Actually the thing about AI is you can determine what is possible and what is not possible. Neil Degrasse loves to do that with science fiction. He tries to determine what could and what could not be. Take Noah for example. There is speculation that Noah built Göbekli Tepe, because of all the animals there. But the animals are wild and not the same as what the Bible tells us was on Noah's Ark. So we look at what is and what is not possible.

I do not go by speculations, but by facts only. AI being man made technology can only give what man programs into it. There are many mysteries of God that we may never understand like the new Jerusalem until we are there.

 

[for_his_glory]

Actually that is true of past and future in the Bible. Even looking back on Eden Science and History tells us a lot that we do not read about in our Bible. But people want to reject what Science and History tells us. People like to hold onto their traditional understanding even when new information comes along.

Science and history is very important for our learning, especially when it comes to Biblical archaeological discoveries. Until the beginning of the 19th century very little was known of biblical times and biblical backgrounds, except what was written in the OT and NT and also what was preserved in the writings of classical antiquity. But yet, a few things like the garden of Eden, Noah's ark, Ark of the covenant will never be found as God does not want to literally reveal them to us. We can speculate in a general location, but, can not pinpoint the actual place.

Is the new Jerusalem literal or symbolic in its description as there is a lot of speculation. We really will not know until we are taken there when Christ returns.

 

[Elijah7777]

a few things like the garden of Eden, Noah's ark, Ark of the covenant will never be found

Actually, science gives us an abundant, overwelming amount of information about Eden. Even Science borrows the words Eden, Adam & Eve. Although they do not use them in the exact same way as the BIBLE>

What we know about Eden from Science and in the Bible ties in with the story of Noah and the animals that would have been on the Ark. What people do not realize is what God told Noah to bring on the Ark.

"Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth." (Genesis 7:2-3, NIV)

Clean animals are

• Cattle
• Sheep
• Goats
• Deer
• Gazelle
• Antelope

• Clean Sea Creatures​

  • Salmon
  • Trout
  • Bass
  • Tuna
  • Cod

  • Clean Birds​

    • Doves
    • Pigeons
    • Quail
    • Chicken
    • Sparrows

We have so much to deal with that is in the Bible and what History and Science says about what we read in the Bible. We really do not have a lot of time for anything else. There are professors at the University of Jerusalam that have a lot to say about these animals. Even you can get a PhD if you want to study this.
The Hebrew University of Jerusalem offers programs that specifically mention animal husbandry. Their M.Sc. program in Animal Husbandry and Veterinary Science covers topics like livestock management, animal welfare, and veterinary medicine. Additionally, their M.Sc. in Animal Sciences discusses advanced animal husbandry practices used in Israel.

When the Hebrew Children were living in the wilderness Moses told them where to put their toilet and where to get rid of their garbage. This is the distance they are allowed to travel on the sabbath and this is why their camp sites look like the shape of a shoe.

The point is if people would spend more time to study Science and History they would know a lot more about their Bible. They want to argue with Darwin and yet Evolution gives us more evidence for the Bible than anything else. Science and the Bible BOTH have the EXACT same theme. COMMON ANCESTOR.

The Bible gives us very exact geneology from Adam and Eve to Mary. The DNA for 4,000 years is almost beyond what Science is able to do. But Science does give us enough information to prove that what we read in the Bible is 100% accurate and true.

The Hebrew nation needed water to drink. There is even a story about noah and the rock that he hit twice instead of once and the water came out of the rock for them to drink. So we know that waters is not abunant in the desert and the camps they had in those 40 years had to have had water. Which would mean they are areas that are going to be populated today.

We can go on forever with what Science and History tells us about the Bible and what we learn from Moses. For example The word "husband" first appears in the Bible in Genesis 3:6, where Adam is referred to as Eve’s husband. No one says anything about Husband and wife until Adam and Eve.

Science and the Bible have a lot to say about what happened 6,000 years ago. I began my study of this when I took a class in Ancient History in High School. Also back in the 60's was when the first book came out on DNA. I got a copy and read the book at the time and found it very interesting. At the time our Biology book talked about Mandel and his experments on pea plants. So we have come a long way in that regard and all of our new information helps us to have a more indepth understanding of our Bible.

 

[Elijah7777]

Is the new Jerusalem literal or symbolic

The New Jerusalem is said to be a city but is the size of all of the arab continental plate.

• The New Jerusalem is described in Revelation 21 as 12,000 stadia per side, which is about 1,400 miles (2,200 km) in length, width, and height.
• That would make its total area around 4,840,000 square kilometers.
• The Arabian Plate covers approximately 5,000,000 square kilometers.

So the Arabian Plate is about 160,000 square kilometers larger than the estimated footprint of the New Jerusalem. That means they are not going to be able to control the beaches or the water the way they would like. I am sure they are going to try to claim it, but God simply does not give it to them.

1. High Priest’s Breastplate (Exodus 28:15-21)​

The breastplate of the High Priest contained 12 precious stones, each representing a tribe of Israel:

• Jasper
• Sapphire
• Emerald
• Topaz
• Amethyst
• Beryl
• Onyx
• Ruby
• Turquoise
• Diamond
• Carbuncle
• Chrysolite

2. New Jerusalem’s Foundations (Revelation 21:19-21)​

The New Jerusalem is described as having foundations adorned with 12 precious stones, including:

• Jasper
• Sapphire
• Chalcedony
• Emerald
• Sardonyx
• Carnelian
• Chrysolite
• Beryl
• Topaz
• Chrysoprase
• Jacinth
• Amethyst

3. Symbolism in Scripture​

Precious stones often symbolize God’s majesty, wisdom, and eternal promises:

• Sapphire – Represents divine favor and wisdom (Job 28:18).
• Emerald – Symbolizes renewal and resurrection (Revelation 21:19).
• Ruby – Associated with beauty and integrity (Proverbs 31:10).
• Diamond – Reflects strength and purity (Ezekiel 28:13).

These stones were not just decorative—they carried deep spiritual significance in biblical texts.

I have done some rock art using semi precious stone. I do not crush and polish them myself. I let other people do that for me and then I buy them for about $12 a pound. In the Kingdom age this will all be an interesting subject for the students to study.

Today people want to argue and dispute and they never get down to a serious study of the Bible or Science.

 

[for_his_glory]

Actually, science gives us an abundant, overwelming amount of information about Eden. Even Science borrows the words Eden, Adam & Eve. Although they do not use them in the exact same way as the BIBLE>

What we know about Eden from Science and in the Bible ties in with the story of Noah and the animals that would have been on the Ark. What people do not realize is what God told Noah to bring on the Ark.

"Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth." (Genesis 7:2-3, NIV)

Clean animals are

• Cattle
• Sheep
• Goats
• Deer
• Gazelle
• Antelope

• Clean Sea Creatures​

  • Salmon
  • Trout
  • Bass
  • Tuna
  • Cod

  • Clean Birds​

    • Doves
    • Pigeons
    • Quail
    • Chicken
    • Sparrows

We have so much to deal with that is in the Bible and what History and Science says about what we read in the Bible. We really do not have a lot of time for anything else. There are professors at the University of Jerusalam that have a lot to say about these animals. Even you can get a PhD if you want to study this.
The Hebrew University of Jerusalem offers programs that specifically mention animal husbandry. Their M.Sc. program in Animal Husbandry and Veterinary Science covers topics like livestock management, animal welfare, and veterinary medicine. Additionally, their M.Sc. in Animal Sciences discusses advanced animal husbandry practices used in Israel.

When the Hebrew Children were living in the wilderness Moses told them where to put their toilet and where to get rid of their garbage. This is the distance they are allowed to travel on the sabbath and this is why their camp sites look like the shape of a shoe.

The point is if people would spend more time to study Science and History they would know a lot more about their Bible. They want to argue with Darwin and yet Evolution gives us more evidence for the Bible than anything else. Science and the Bible BOTH have the EXACT same theme. COMMON ANCESTOR.

The Bible gives us very exact geneology from Adam and Eve to Mary. The DNA for 4,000 years is almost beyond what Science is able to do. But Science does give us enough information to prove that what we read in the Bible is 100% accurate and true.

The Hebrew nation needed water to drink. There is even a story about noah and the rock that he hit twice instead of once and the water came out of the rock for them to drink. So we know that waters is not abunant in the desert and the camps they had in those 40 years had to have had water. Which would mean they are areas that are going to be populated today.

We can go on forever with what Science and History tells us about the Bible and what we learn from Moses. For example The word "husband" first appears in the Bible in Genesis 3:6, where Adam is referred to as Eve’s husband. No one says anything about Husband and wife until Adam and Eve.

Science and the Bible have a lot to say about what happened 6,000 years ago. I began my study of this when I took a class in Ancient History in High School. Also back in the 60's was when the first book came out on DNA. I got a copy and read the book at the time and found it very interesting. At the time our Biology book talked about Mandel and his experments on pea plants. So we have come a long way in that regard and all of our new information helps us to have a more indepth understanding of our Bible.

It's like I said, we can find the area of the garden of Eden, Noah's ark and where the Ark of the covenant was before the Last Temple was destroyed in 70AD, but can not pinpoint where each one was.

For example:
The location where the garden of Eden was is described in Genesis 2:10-14. Eden is located somewhere between Turkey, Iraq and Syria where the four heads of the rivers come from. Eastern gate of the Garden of Eden that the two Cherubim guard faces what would have been where the tower of Babel was built and Babylonian Empire becoming the Roman Empire that has always opposed Gods people.

The four rivers of Genesis 2:10-14
Pison in the land of Havilah
Gihon in the land of Ethiopia
Hiddekel east of Assyris
Euphrates in Turkey through Iraq (Iraq used to be the Babylonian Empire)

 

[for_his_glory]

The New Jerusalem is said to be a city but is the size of all of the arab continental plate.

• The New Jerusalem is described in Revelation 21 as 12,000 stadia per side, which is about 1,400 miles (2,200 km) in length, width, and height.
• That would make its total area around 4,840,000 square kilometers.
• The Arabian Plate covers approximately 5,000,000 square kilometers.

So the Arabian Plate is about 160,000 square kilometers larger than the estimated footprint of the New Jerusalem. That means they are not going to be able to control the beaches or the water the way they would like. I am sure they are going to try to claim it, but God simply does not give it to them.

1. High Priest’s Breastplate (Exodus 28:15-21)​

The breastplate of the High Priest contained 12 precious stones, each representing a tribe of Israel:

• Jasper
• Sapphire
• Emerald
• Topaz
• Amethyst
• Beryl
• Onyx
• Ruby
• Turquoise
• Diamond
• Carbuncle
• Chrysolite

2. New Jerusalem’s Foundations (Revelation 21:19-21)​

The New Jerusalem is described as having foundations adorned with 12 precious stones, including:

• Jasper
• Sapphire
• Chalcedony
• Emerald
• Sardonyx
• Carnelian
• Chrysolite
• Beryl
• Topaz
• Chrysoprase
• Jacinth
• Amethyst

3. Symbolism in Scripture​

Precious stones often symbolize God’s majesty, wisdom, and eternal promises:

• Sapphire – Represents divine favor and wisdom (Job 28:18).
• Emerald – Symbolizes renewal and resurrection (Revelation 21:19).
• Ruby – Associated with beauty and integrity (Proverbs 31:10).
• Diamond – Reflects strength and purity (Ezekiel 28:13).

These stones were not just decorative—they carried deep spiritual significance in biblical texts.

I have done some rock art using semi precious stone. I do not crush and polish them myself. I let other people do that for me and then I buy them for about $12 a pound. In the Kingdom age this will all be an interesting subject for the students to study.

Today people want to argue and dispute and they never get down to a serious study of the Bible or Science.

I have already gave what scripture gives us in post #24. Many try to explain it with a carnal mind as in the description given in Rev 21:9-27, or is it likened unto the description in Rev 21:11 where it is written "was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal". Remember, these are visions John is given as many that he received are literal and also symbolic in their meaning.

Like I said, we will just have to wait and see, but the important thing is that we need to be Spiritually prepared now so we have eternal life in the new Jerusalem. I think we are going to be surprised on how we got so many things wrong, except our salvation in and through Christ Jesus who saves us when He returns.

 

[Elijah7777]

"was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal"

I studied the physics of light when I was in college. So I am sure this means more to me than it does for you. I decided to get out of theater. But if I had stayed in then I would be working on a production something like Taylor Swift now a days.

 

[Randy]

You do know that a sea is not an ocean.

I assume it was the mediterranean sea. but it could be more the 1500-mile cubic City will be land based. You do note 1500 miles reaches into space as well don't you? A new heaven and earth.