No conditions to be reconciled !

[OzSpen]

I doubt I'll ever have to correct you Oz.
We may sometime have a different opinion on a CONCEPT,
but never on substance of a verse.

I read the above twice, and yes, i think I understand.
ANY amount of faith will suffice for salvation. This I've always understood.
But we each need a certain amount of faith for what we need to do.
IOW, if I'm a minister or pastor I need MORE faith for that ministry in order to do my work -
If I'm just a normal person witnessing or giving testimony, I won't need as much faith
as the pastor. Ditto for all other gifts.

I hope I've understood it correctly.

Wondering

You've got it - my understanding.

There is one other point in Rom 12:3 (ESV) that helps to clarify the meaning of 'measure of faith'. Here 'measure' is a noun, but the verb associated with it, i.e. 'I measure', merizo, has implications of distribution, with 'measure' thought of as a portion of something.

Perhaps the closest parallel to this application is 2 Cor 10:13 (ESV), 'But we will not boast beyond limits, but will boast only with regard to the area of influence God assigned to us, to reach even to you'.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed dont use individual verses .. the Scriptures were not written i chapter and verse.. so why then say that this sentence ( in this case
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. ) is not for today or us yet the rest is?
The way i read your post we are not to evangelize,,, only the Apostles were..
I posted John 15:16 in the context of John 15:13 through 17 .. I would come to the same conclusion posting/reading all of John

John 15:16 says specifically that Jesus ORDAINED the Apostles for a specific function, or functions.

Here's the meaning of ordained:

ORDAINED (adjective)

The adjective ORDAINED has 2 senses:

1. fixed or established especially by order or command
2. invested with ministerial or priestly functions

Jesus did mean to give some orders only for the Apostles and their successors.

Also, I did not say we are not to evangelize. Here's what I said in my previous post:

He's speaking specifically to the Apostles. THEY must go and make disciples of all nations.
We could witness and testify and do our part. But there is a specific ministry to pass on God's word, would you not agree?

Wondering

 

[OzSpen]

I doubt I'll ever have to correct you Oz.
We may sometime have a different opinion on a CONCEPT,
but never on substance of a verse.

Wondering,

I urge you to be a Berean with my or anybody else's teaching: 'Now these Jews [at Berea] were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so' (Acts 17:11 ESV).

These Jewish Christians were required to check out the apostle Paul (examining the Scriptures daily) to see if his teachings were correct.

If it applied to Paul, it most certainly applies to me as well.

Blessings,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

You don't make this easy beloved57.

Maybe you don't know what a qualifier is?
You could never just answer a question.
Too much time wasted getting to the point...

You said:
God is counting sins against some or how can they die in their sins Jn 8:24 ?


John 8:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Jesus was speaking to the Jews and telling them that they would die in their sins

IF (and now comes the qualifier)

they did not believe that HE was the Messiah from above, they would surely die in their sins.

IOW
They would die in their sins UNLESS they believed in Jesus.
IF they BELIEVED in Jesus then they WOULD NOT die in their sins.

Wondering

Excellent observation and teaching, Wondering.

 

[GodsGrace]

You've got it - my understanding.

There is one other point in Rom 12:3 (ESV) that helps to clarify the meaning of 'measure of faith'. Here 'measure' is a noun, but the verb associated with it, i.e. 'I measure', merizo, has implications of distribution, with 'measure' thought of as a portion of something.

Perhaps the closest parallel to this application is 2 Cor 10:13 (ESV), 'But we will not boast beyond limits, but will boast only with regard to the area of influence God assigned to us, to reach even to you'.

Oz

Thanks Oz. Also for the additional info.

I'd like to post 2 Corinthians 10:13 from the NASB. (Romans 12:3 is basically the same)

2 Corinthians 10:13New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 But we will not boast beyond our measure, but within the measure of the sphere which God apportioned to us as a measure, to reach even as far as you.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

None of those scriptures answer the question

You're welcome to your opinion. No opinion will offset 2 Cor. 5:19 in any case.

2 Corinthians 5:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

You want to count sins? Scripture sez NOT allowed in the direction most want to count.

If you understand how scripture addresses sin you'd understand who gets accounting for sin. It's pretty obvious:

1 John 3:
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

That's the only track available to reconcile these kinds of matters.

Scripture never deals with "man" as just and only man. In 2 Cor. 12:7 Paul provides us an intimate look at his own flesh with the same light as 1 John 3:8, Romans 7:21 and Mark 4:15 for examples. These are all in quite perfect harmony.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering,

I urge you to be a Berean with my or anybody else's teaching: 'Now these Jews [at Berea] were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so' (Acts 17:11 ESV).

These Jewish Christians were required to check out the apostle Paul (examining the Scriptures daily) to see if his teachings were correct.

If it applied to Paul, it most certainly applies to me as well.

Blessings,
Oz

LOL.
Some I trust more than others...

But I do look up scriptures and think everything through till I understand it.

No responsibility placed on you!

Thanks for this too Oz.

Wondering

 

[beloved57]

wondering

You don't make this easy beloved57.

You the one said something about a qualifier. Not me, dont try to make me explain something you bought up. Are you competent enough to explain it ? You brought it up. I merely stated that some men shall die in their sins Jn 8:24, and how so when no sin has been imputed to them ? 2 Cor 5:19 !

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering

You the one said something about a qualifier. Not me, dont try to make me explain something you bought up. Are you competent enough to explain it ? You brought it up. I merely stated that some men shall die in their sins Jn 8:24, and how so when no sin has been imputed to them ? 2 Cor 5:19 !

Did you read my post no. 220?
Now you bring up 2 Corinthians 5:19.

This is not how it's done beloved 57.
You have to show that you read my post 220, (where I explained John 8:24) maybe make a comment of disagreement.

I mean, you keep posting scripture you want me to comment on.

This is Apologetics and Theology
not a homework assignment.

Wondering

 

[beloved57]

Did you read my post no. 220?
Now you bring up 2 Corinthians 5:19.

This is not how it's done beloved 57.
You have to show that you read my post 220, (where I explained John 8:24) maybe make a comment of disagreement.

I mean, you keep posting scripture you want me to comment on.

This is Apologetics and Theology
not a homework assignment.

Wondering

Do you know what this thread is about ?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Christ died for the sins of the world.
He came to save the world.
If you think differently, you are judging by your own standards and the Bible does not support that.
John 3:17;

 

[beloved57]

wondering

You have to show that you read my post 220, (where I explained John 8:24) maybe make a comment of

You are in contradiction. You speak of sin in the flesh that brings death, that means you are teaching God imputes sin, for the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23, whereas 2 Cor 5:19 says God does not charge sin on some people. So you are in contradiction !

 

[beloved57]

Christ died for the sins of the world.
He came to save the world.
If you think differently, you are judging by your own standards and the Bible does not support that.
John 3:17;

Nobody denied Jn 3:17. However you fail to explain how some sinners that are enemies are reconciled to God while being so by Christs death Rom 5:10 and some sinners as enemies are under Gods wrath and condemnation Jn 3:18,36, what makes the difference ?

 

[OzSpen]

wondering

You are in contradiction. You speak of sin in the flesh that brings death, that means you are teaching God imputes sin, for the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23, whereas 2 Cor 5:19 says God does not charge sin on some people. So you are in contradiction !

beloved57,

Do you accept the content of Rom 3:23 (HCSB), 'For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God'? Have ALL people of the ENTIRE human race sinned?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Nobody denied Jn 3:17. However you fail to explain how some sinners that are enemies are reconciled to God while being so by Christs death Rom 5:10 and some sinners as enemies are under Gods wrath and condemnation Jn 3:18,36, what makes the difference ?

I do NOT deny the content of John 3:17 (ESV), which states, 'For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him'. So are you going to accept what this verse states, 'in order that the world might be saved through him'? How many people are included in the world? Who are exempt?

However, you do not want to include both verses of Rom 5:10-11 (ESV) in your theology, 'For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation'.

The only ones who are 'reconciled to God' by the death of Jesus are - get it - those who have 'received reconciliation'.

There is no automatic, unilateral reconciliation. People ('those') need to 'receive reconciliation'. There is no forced reconciliation here by an absolute decree of a deterministic God who drags people into the kingdom. They 'receive' redemption; redemption is not dumped on them without thought of acceptance. Do you know what 'receive' means?

Oz

 

[beloved57]

beloved57,

Do you accept the content of Rom 3:23 (HCSB), 'For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God'? Have ALL people of the ENTIRE human race sinned?

Oz

Where did I say I didn't accept the content of Rom 3:23 ? This is a evasive rabbit trail question. 2 Cor 5:19 says nothing about people not having sinned, but that God was not imputing sin. Do you know what that means?

 

[beloved57]

I do NOT deny the content of John 3:17 (ESV), which states, 'For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him'. So are you going to accept what this verse states, 'in order that the world might be saved through him'? How many people are included in the world? Who are exempt?

However, you do not want to include both verses of Rom 5:10-11 (ESV) in your theology, 'For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation'.

The only ones who are 'reconciled to God' by the death of Jesus are - get it - those who have 'received reconciliation'.

There is no automatic, unilateral reconciliation. People ('those') need to 'receive reconciliation'. There is no forced reconciliation here by an absolute decree of a deterministic God who drags people into the kingdom. They 'receive' redemption; redemption is not dumped on them without thought of acceptance. Do you know what 'receive' means?

Oz

Where did I deny verse Rom 5:11? Its you who deny Rom 5:10 which precedes verse 11. Those who recevied the atonement in verse 11 had been already reconciled to God by Christ death while they were enemies so stated vs 10!

 

[OzSpen]

Where did I say I didn't accept the content of Rom 3:23 ? This is a evasive rabbit trail question. 2 Cor 5:19 says nothing about people not having sinned, but that God was not imputing sin. Do you know what that means?

Where did I say you don't accept the content of Rom 3:23 (ESV)? Not I. Don't blame me! I was simply asking you if you believed 'ALL people have sinned' and by implication are sinners?

 

[OzSpen]

Where did I deny verse Rom 5:11? Its you who deny Rom 5:10 which precedes verse 11. Those who recevied the atonement in verse 11 had been already reconciled to God by Christ death while they were enemies so stated vs 10!

You have not written that you accept that people need to 'receive reconciliation' to be redeemed.

I most definitely believe in the content of Rom 5:10 (ESV) as long as it is understood in the light of its being combined with Rom 5:10-11 (ESV), i.e. people need to have 'received reconciliation' to be saved. They are not forced to accept your brand of reconciliation: SAVED BY SOVEREIGN GRACE. The Bible's view from Rom 5:10-11 (ESV) is that reconciliation comes to any person who has 'received reconciliation'. This does NOT mean that a person has 'been forced to receive reconciliation'.

Oz

 

[beloved57]

Where did I say you don't accept the content of Rom 3:23 (ESV)? Not I. Don't blame me! I was simply asking you if you believed 'ALL people have sinned' and by implication are sinners?

You brought up Rom 3:23 ! Why ? It had no bearing on 2 Cor 5:19 or Rom 5:10!