No conditions to be reconciled !

[OzSpen]

The point you have tried to make has done nothing to resolve the point I have made in the OP which is what I want to discuss since thats what I started out with. I have no problem with 1 Tim 4:10, have you studied that scripture thoroughly before bringing it into this discussion ? Thats your responsibility, not mine !

You have not answered the content of what I wrote of 1 Tim 4:10 (ESV) at #152. Asking, 'Have you studied that scripture thoroughly before bringing it into this discussion?' is NOT an answer to what I wrote.

Of course I've studies 1 Tim 4:10 (ESV) over many years. I'm an exegete of the Greek language. Since you have a set mind against any understanding contrary to your fixed Calvinistic view, there is no point in doing a detailed exegesis. I've provided my explanation at #152 and you have refused to examine that content.

Your saying, 'I have no problem with 1 Tim 4:10', is a pointless comment that provides no further information to deal with its content.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering,

That is very well stated. Congratulations for seeing the light of God's redemption in Christ and receiving that redemption.

I hope you realise that beloved57 CANNOT conclude as you and I do. Take a look at the footer on every one of this person's posts, starting with the OP. It states, 'SAVED BY SOVEREIGN GRACE'. Presuppositions make a powerful impact on one's conclusions. So when 'saved by sovereign grace' is the starting point, it is not surprising that the concluding point is as stated by beloved57 at #162:

The problem does not remain for us guys at all. The problem remains with the steadfast immovable presupposition of beloved57, SAVED BY SOVEREIGN GRACE and not as stated in Eph 2:8 (ESV), 'BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH'.

Oz

Hi Oz
Know what frightens me?
If I had read "saved by sovereign grace" just 5 months ago I would have
thought it was okay. Because - we are saved, okay / it is by grace, okay /
God is sovereign, okay.

It took these threads to make me aware of ideas I was not aware of before.
And I've been Christian a really long time...

This does frighten me and I try to make an effort to pay more attention now - but
sometimes someone's wording still escapes me.

Wondering
still raining

 

[smaller]

Personally I think God is going to prove out to be a LOT more Sovereign than anybody really see's or perceives.

Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I'd consider Calvin's version of Divine Sovereignty exceedingly pale by comparisons. And the freewill postures move God so far down on the list Divine Sovereignty doesn't exist.

So who does the reconciling? God or man?

2 Corinthians 5:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz
Know what frightens me?
If I had read "saved by sovereign grace" just 5 months ago I would have
thought it was okay. Because - we are saved, okay / it is by grace, okay /
God is sovereign, okay.

It took these threads to make me aware of ideas I was not aware of before.
And I've been Christian a really long time...

This does frighten me and I try to make an effort to pay more attention now - but
sometimes someone's wording still escapes me.

Wondering
still raining

Wondering,

We are all on a learning curve that is bigger for some than others. Since I've spent a number of years in theological teaching and years of study, I've been able to see some of the warning signs in what people write. By 'warning signs', I mean indicators of that person's presuppositions and/or theological views. I guess my skills were sharpened over the last 5 years in pursuing my PhD in an examination of the presuppositions of a leading promoter of heresy.

The 'Big Wet' hit Brisbane today and we received 62mm of rain in our region. That's 2.5 inches. What made it bad was the extra problem of high winds. However, the storm system has moved out to sea. See HERE. The outback of Queensland and other states are drought stricken.

It's 10.30pm on this Sat night and bed is calling.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Personally I think God is going to prove out to be a LOT more Sovereign than anybody really see's or perceives.

Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I'd consider Calvin's version of Divine Sovereignty exceedingly pale by comparisons. And the freewill postures move God so far down on the list Divine Sovereignty doesn't exist.

So who does the reconciling? God or man?

2 Corinthians 5:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

smaller,

I don't doubt God's sovereignty. It's the 'how' that I have questions about.

Notice what you didn't highlight in 2 Cor 5:19 'that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ'. How can that be when we know that the whole world is not saved and reconciled to him? Making it mean 'that God was reconciling SOME of the world to himself in Christ' is not what Paul stated.

Oz

 

[smaller]

smaller,

I don't doubt God's sovereignty. It's the 'how' that I have questions about.

Notice what you didn't highlight in 2 Cor 5:19 'that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ'. How can that be when we know that the whole world is not saved and reconciled to him? Making it mean 'that God was reconciling SOME of the world to himself in Christ' is not what Paul stated.

Oz

Scriptures have clearly explained why people don't believe. And yes, that too is a Sovereign Act, by deferral (aka omission) of the Sovereign in acting to remove that barrier that is not of the person.

See Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4 and Eph. 2:2 for quick references.

If you are seeing only people in these equations you are not seeing the scriptural picture. No offense. It's a common problem because the problem itself is very real and exists also with the church members themselves. Again, see Romans 7:21, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 3:8 for quick references.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering,

We are all on a learning curve that is bigger for some than others. Since I've spent a number of years in theological teaching and years of study, I've been able to see some of the warning signs in what people write. By 'warning signs', I mean indicators of that person's presuppositions and/or theological views. I guess my skills were sharpened over the last 5 years in pursuing my PhD in an examination of the presuppositions of a leading promoter of heresy.

The 'Big Wet' hit Brisbane today and we received 62mm of rain in our region. That's 2.5 inches. What made it bad was the extra problem of high winds. However, the storm system has moved out to sea. See HERE. The outback of Queensland and other states are drought stricken.

It's 10.30pm on this Sat night and bed is calling.

Oz

Hope the worst is over. I think so.
That's a lot of water in a short period of time.
On the link I found this nice picture:

Maybe taken from the Fortezza, from the angle, or else Piazzale Michelangelo. One of my favorite places
in Italy.
Have a blessed day.

 

[beloved57]

Not at all. You are spinning the wheels repeating the same old, same old verses and going nowhere. I've answered the main point of the thread, but I don't begin where you do with SAVED BY SOVEREIGN GRACE. I begin with Eph 2:8 (ESV), 'BY GRACE ARE YOU SAVED THROUGH FAITH'.

There is no point in discussing Scriptures that contradict your SAVED BY SOVEREIGN GRACE as you won't engage with us to discuss how these OTHER Scriptures do not support your decreed, deterministic, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace of Calvinism's SAVED BY SOVEREIGN GRACE.

Have you ever tried convincing an Aussie he really has an American accent and that it's impossible for him to speak English in any other way with any other than a Yankee accent because the Yankee accent is the only genuine English way to pronounce English in Australia? That's the kind of analogy that applies just as strongly to your refusal to see salvation any other way than the Calvinistic SAVED BY SOVEREIGN GRACE.

Oz

Yes you are evading it.

 

[reba]

Personally I think God is going to prove out to be a LOT more Sovereign than anybody really see's or perceives.

Agree smaller We are so used to personal freedoms we have zero idea what sovereign is ..

 

[smaller]

Agree smaller We are so used to personal freedoms we have zero idea what sovereign is ..

God is sooo Sovereign that He Is such and we don't even realize it. Now that's Sovereign.

 

[OzSpen]

Scriptures have clearly explained why people don't believe. And yes, that too is a Sovereign Act, by deferral (aka omission) of the Sovereign in acting to remove that barrier that is not of the person.

See Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4 and Eph. 2:2 for quick references.

If you are seeing only people in these equations you are not seeing the scriptural picture. No offense. It's a common problem because the problem itself is very real and exists also with the church members themselves. Again, see Romans 7:21, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 3:8 for quick references.

You didn't address what I wrote. Do you know what that is called?

 

[OzSpen]

Yes you are evading it.

It's not evading at all. You are the one evading Eph 2:8 (ESV), 'By grace are you saved through faith'. Whose faith is it? Yours, mine or God's?

Oz

 

[reba]

It's not evading at all. You are the one evading Eph 2:8 (ESV), 'By grace are you saved through faith'. Whose faith is it? Yours, mine or God's?

Oz

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

This is one of the verses that keeps me jumping this fence..

 

[OzSpen]

Hope the worst is over. I think so.
That's a lot of water in a short period of time.
On the link I found this nice picture:

Maybe taken from the Fortezza, from the angle, or else Piazzale Michelangelo. One of my favorite places
in Italy.
Have a blessed day.

Wondering,

The worst seems to be over but the big clean up by the SES (State Emergency Service volunteers) begins today. 'Brisbane Weather', which I have just read on this Sunday morning (6.44am), states that the Gold Coast Hinterland had 270mm of rain. That's approx. 11 inches in just over 24 hours. That's really belting it down.

I had my sandbags ready in case the water came close to entering the long back sliding door. It came close but they were not needed.

Jeremiah 14:22 (ISV) reminds us: 'Can any of the worthless gods of the nations make it rain? Can the heavens themselves bring forth showers? Aren't you the one who does this, LORD our God? So we hope in you, for you are the one who does all these things'.

This is not the season of the year when we expect this kind of a downpour. That normally happens in summer, but we are at the start of winter. Thank you, sovereign Lord, for sending the rain at your appointed time.

Blessings,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

This is one of the verses that keeps me jumping this fence..

reba,

Now read that verse in context:

3 For by the grace given to me I say to every one among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgement, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness (Rom 12:3-8 ESV).

'According as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith' refers to faith for the gifts of the Spirit to operate and NOT faith relating to salvation. This is why it is important not to pluck one verse to make it mean what it doesn't mean in context.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering,

...

Jeremiah 14:22 (ISV) reminds us: 'Can any of the worthless gods of the nations make it rain? Can the heavens themselves bring forth showers? Aren't you the one who does this, LORD our God? So we hope in you, for you are the one who does all these things'.

This is not the season of the year when we expect this kind of a downpour. That normally happens in summer, but we are at the start of winter. Thank you, sovereign Lord, for sending the rain at your appointed time.

Blessings,
Oz

Your prayer is very beautiful. It shows acceptance.
I'm tired of the rain here and am not in this same spirit as you are.
Thanks for reminding me that we are to be thankful for everything.
1 Thessalonians 5:16
5:18a

In Christ
Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

reba,

Now read that verse in context:


'According as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith' refers to faith for the gifts of the Spirit to operate and NOT faith relating to salvation. This is why it is important not to pluck one verse to make it mean what it doesn't mean in context.

Oz

Does the above (in red) mean that God has given to each one a different measure of faith? To some more than to others?
Jesus did say that if one has the faith of a mustard seed he could uproot a tree, or move a mountain. And yet many in the bible had a lot of faith.
Mathew 17:20
Luke 17:6

Wondering

 

[JohnDB]

Scriptures have clearly explained why people don't believe. And yes, that too is a Sovereign Act, by deferral (aka omission) of the Sovereign in acting to remove that barrier that is not of the person.

See Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4 and Eph. 2:2 for quick references.

If you are seeing only people in these equations you are not seeing the scriptural picture. No offense. It's a common problem because the problem itself is very real and exists also with the church members themselves. Again, see Romans 7:21, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 3:8 for quick references.

Agree smaller We are so used to personal freedoms we have zero idea what sovereign is ..

God is so Sovereign that He does not fear or have a worry about our free will.
God may know what we will choose but that knowing doesn't mean that He will intervene to cause our choice outside of what He has already accomplished.
For God's list of accomplishments is very precise and efficient in attracting those that He chose before the foundations of the world were laid when He was busy creating the Light...

We make choices for the same basic reasons we always have. Promise of pleasure or fear of pain. (Carrot or stick)

Logical conclusion is a method...not a reason.
And gratitude is also a method...not a reason.

 

[reba]

I dont believe it is that simple John...

 

[beloved57]

It's not evading at all. You are the one evading Eph 2:8 (ESV), 'By grace are you saved through faith'. Whose faith is it? Yours, mine or God's?

Oz

I have no problem with Eph 2:8. You are using that verse to be evasive of the point I already made ! Now have you studied that verse completely ? You are bringing it to the discussion, not me !