No conditions to be reconciled !

[smaller]

God is so Sovereign that He does not fear or have a worry about our free will.

Freely translated as a God who doesn't care, doesn't have to care, is completely disinterested and completely non-involved without any plan whatsoever. An arrogant insufferable elitist. (just like all the other jerks at the top of the piles of suffering humanity only moreso, as a Divine Jerk.)

No thank you to such theological apologetic, which is aka an excuse for a failure.

Perhaps on the other hand God is so intimately Sovereign that we simply don't perceive it as such and can not by His Own Design of us.

A far greater case can be made from scripture for this as our reality. And from time to time we have the curtains drawn back to see/perceive a tiny little fraction of Him.

See Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 and 1 John 3:8 for scripture facts showing the reality of our Divinely Imposed spiritual blindness.

God may know what we will choose but that knowing doesn't mean that He will intervene to cause our choice outside of what He has already accomplished.

Yeah, back to the above disinterested God theories. I seriously do not believe in the disinterested God John. And if that is the case and we are to be 'like Him' then I am also disinterested in Him, likewise.

The fact is I am disinterested in people's notions of such a God and perhaps the majority of the population is, likewise, because of the promotions of such a powerless toothless fairy tale of a detracted and withdrawn Party from His creation and from reality.

And have replaced God with their own disinterested excuses for Him.

 

[JohnDB]

Disinterested is an addition on your part.

And I agree that to the unholy God is seemingly absentee.
But Jesus said that his Father is always working and so was He. (I tend to believe Him....)

So our understanding of how Sovereign God really is depends upon how well you know Him. And many of us see God's hands in a lot of places and people...the ultimate end unknown to us but we still sit and watch.

 

[smaller]

So our understanding of how Sovereign God really is depends upon how well you know Him. And many of us see God's hands in a lot of places and people...the ultimate end unknown to us but we still sit and watch.

Yes, very similar to the God you propose.

 

[smaller]

Reconciliation is quite a wonderful matter of God in Christ to partake in. It is the joy of "real" Christianity to take the message of the Gospel to ALL people, that God is not counting sins against any of us.

2 Cor. 5:19.

Very few christians believe that is the message, however.

That also does not mean that sins are not being counted either. And this is where most of us stumble.

We can all see that the sins of others are demonic, of the devil. And we pity the slaves and the fools for their abuses by Satan.

But we never see our sins as "of the devil." 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15 etc. Nor do any of understand that our sins are being counted against Satan and his minions. And that Divine Retribution comes upon our own flesh in the form of DEATH. Romans 8:10.

It's an interesting dilemma that we've been Divinely dropped into here on earth in the flesh.

People are meant to be reconciled. Devils are meant to be resisted. Both of these "activities" transpire in the same location. IN US. Few can sort out or perceive the differences between these two goal posts and often confuse the players. It's not an easy gig and that's all there is to it.

 

[JohnDB]

Reconciliation is quite a wonderful matter of God in Christ to partake in. It is the joy of "real" Christianity to take the message of the Gospel to ALL people, that God is not counting sins against any of us.

2 Cor. 5:19.

Very few christians believe that is the message, however.

That also does not mean that sins are not being counted either. And this is where most of us stumble.

We can all see that the sins of others are demonic, of the devil. And we pity the slaves and the fools for their abuses by Satan.

But we never see our sins as "of the devil." 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15 etc. Nor do any of understand that our sins are being counted against Satan and his minions. And that Divine Retribution comes upon our own flesh in the form of DEATH. Romans 8:10.

It's an interesting dilemma that we've been Divinely dropped into here on earth in the flesh.

People are meant to be reconciled. Devils are meant to be resisted. Both of these "activities" transpire in the same location. IN US. Few can sort out or perceive the differences between these two goal posts and often confuse the players. It's not an easy gig and that's all there is to it.

So if I am understanding what you are proposing....
People are some kind of treasured pawns in a cosmic struggle between good and evil? Human autonomy is only an illusion?

But what about the famous passages such as in Joshua, "choose you this day whom you will serve....but as for me and my house we will serve the LORD"

Why say "choose" if he didn't mean it?

 

[reba]

Why say "choose" if he didn't mean it?

Why say chosen if He didn't mean it...
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Are we not to love one another are we not to go forth and show fruit...Is He not our friend?

 

[GodsGrace]

Why say chosen if He didn't mean it...
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Are we not to love one another are we not to go forth and show fruit...Is He not our friend?

Reba,
In John 15:16 Jesus is speaking specifically to the Apostles.
Otherwise it sounds like what He's saying is that ONLY A SELECT FEW are chosen for salvation.

Wondering

 

[reba]

Ok wondering .. then are we to discount all He said to them as not being to us also ? Or do we pick and choose those that fit our theology?
Wondering, This post may seem like a direct challenge it is not. My heart/mind go back and forth over this often... As much as the Word says Joh 15:16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you it also says
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God is not confused so the confusion is mine

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok wondering .. then are we to discount all He said to them as not being to us also ? Or do we pick and choose those that fit our theology?
Wondering, This post may seem like a direct challenge it is not. My heart/mind go back and forth over this often... As much as the Word says Joh 15:16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you it also says
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God is not confused so the confusion is mine

Reba,
I've written to you a couple of times regarding this. I remember well because of the fact that someone could prove either belief using scripture.

John 15:16 WAS specifically for the Apostles. 98% of scripture could be applied to any one of us - you're 100% correct about this and I know what you're talking about.

But some scripture is specifically for someone. For instance in Mathew 28:18-20
Who is Jesus speaking to?
He's speaking specifically to the Apostles. THEY must go and make disciples of all nations.
We could witness and testify and do our part. But there is a specific ministry to pass on God's word, would you not agree?

Then Jesus tells them to baptize all. Do you or I baptize people? No. Jesus was speaking specifically to the Apostles.
He tells the Apostles to teach. Can we teach? To a limited degree we can all teach and we can all learn from each other. I taught kids for years. But I don't have the ministry of teaching - I don't have the capability or the knowledge available to me for this ministry. Think of those on CFnet that do- its a very specific mission that they have.

So how do you get off the fence?
By not using individual scripture. By not pulling out verses.
By understanding a whole and complete concept.

Is God a loving God?
Is God a just God?

If you answered YES, now ask yourself if a loving and just God would
purposefully create men and women, not give them the opportunity for salvation,
and then send them to hell forever?

Where would the love be?
Where would the justice be?

Is this the God you're serving??

See. You don't need scripture. We have to post it on some forums. But it doesn't work because each side could post something that seems to make sense. The Apostles NEVER KNEW we'd ever come up with such a concept as the TULIP, so they weren't very careful in how they worded ideas.

Go with the concept of how God is, His attributes.
Don't worry about individual verses.

Blessings
Wondering

 

[reba]

Agreed dont use individual verses .. the Scriptures were not written i chapter and verse.. so why then say that this sentence ( in this case
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. ) is not for today or us yet the rest is?
The way i read your post we are not to evangelize,,, only the Apostles were..
I posted John 15:16 in the context of John 15:13 through 17 .. I would come to the same conclusion posting/reading all of John

 

[JohnDB]

Agreed dont use individual verses .. the Scriptures were not written i chapter and verse.. so why then say that this sentence ( in this case
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. ) is not for today or us yet the rest is?
The way i read your post we are not to evangelize,,, only the Apostles were..
I posted John 15:16 in the context of John 15:13 through 17 .. I would come to the same conclusion posting/reading all of John

Because in context it is something different.

Students in Bethmidrash (post secondary education) would choose a rabbi to ask about the opportunity of being their disciple.

Jesus, behaving as an unorthodox rabbi, asked his disciples to follow him.

The only disciple/apostle that finished school and did well before Jesus was Paul. All the rest washed out in high school. All the rest had the best intentions but failed miserably when it came time for scholastic achievement. Others were much better.
God always deserves the best...and each of the disciples felt like they weren't it. (Which is why they left school)

But God told them (by saying directly otherwise in this passage) that they were exactly who He wanted.

 

[OzSpen]

Does the above (in red) mean that God has given to each one a different measure of faith? To some more than to others?
Jesus did say that if one has the faith of a mustard seed he could uproot a tree, or move a mountain. And yet many in the bible had a lot of faith.
Mathew 17:20
Luke 17:6

Wondering

Rom 12:1-8 (ESV) provides the context of what is in red in Rom 12:3 (ESV):

I appeal to you therefore, brothers [and sisters], by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

3 For by the grace given to me I say to every one among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgement, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

I don't understand in this context that 'faith' refers to the truth of the Gospel that is believed. This would not be referred to as given to different Christian believers in differing measures because having faith in Jesus cannot be judged according to the quantity of faith.

The context makes it clearer as vv. 4 & 6 explain: 'For as in one body we have many members ... having gifts that differ'. 'For as' (v 4) launches into the meaning of 'measure of faith'. It is referring to the various needs of faith to deliver the diversity of gifts in the body.

Look at the various expressions that follow v. 3:

• 'the members do not all have the same function' (v 4 ESV);
• 'having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us' (v 6 ESV).

So it is clear there are different functions for the grace gifts given to people and for these different 'measures of faith' are needed.

Therefore, Paul is teaching that each member of the body of Christ receives his or her own measure of faith to exercise a diversity of gifts. So a Christian will be limited to his/her own sphere of activity in expression of his/her gift, based on the gracious, God-given measure of faith.

You have given examples of faith to move mountains (Matt 17:20). On a practical level, I consider that the measure of faith to be an apostle, prophet, or to be used as a healer would be a different measure to that of having the gift of helps or administrative actions.

I'm happy to rest in knowing that God's grace has given a different measure of faith to exercise certain gifts and that that does not apply to the faith to receive salvation.

If I'm in error with this assessment, I'm always open to correction.

Oz

 

[smaller]

So if I am understanding what you are proposing....
People are some kind of treasured pawns

The huge blindspot in all of these conversations is that these matters are never, emphasis never solely about people. Scripture clearly addresses that there is an overlap in the flesh with all people and devils. And the even funnier part is that the scriptures showing this to be a fact can be shown again and again to believers, yet they still can't see it and don't believe it.

Here is a look at a blinded captive unbeliever:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

I don't know about you but I see TWO parties involved with spiritual blindness and captivity. I see a captor, Satan and a blinded slave, the unbelieving person. Man and Satan. The same statement of fact that Jesus shows us in Mark 4:15 and that Paul also shows us, identically, in Acts 26:18.

God has for no uncertain fact bound everyone to disobedience, yes, God did this:

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

What "disobedience" is that? It is the disobedience of the devil, the spirit of disobedience:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

in a cosmic struggle between good and evil? Human autonomy is only an illusion?

God quite purposefully bound not only all mankind but all creation to vanity.

Romans 8:
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

But what about the famous passages such as in Joshua, "choose you this day whom you will serve....but as for me and my house we will serve the LORD"

I don't consider the choice between life and death a "choice." What fool would possibly chose death but a demonically blinded pawn? The reality is that everyone who supposedly "chose" properly in the desert died in the desert because of unbelief. All of them except 2 people, chosen by God, made it to the promised land. Even Moses and Aaron died in the desert because of unbelief. Were they saved anyway? Absolutely!

Why say "choose" if he didn't mean it?

If God commanded a devil to choose, do you think they obey? Uh, no.

Commands are given to arouse, provoke, and ultimately to condemn. People often think that the laws and commands are only for people but they are not. They are for sinners 1 Tim. 1:9 and the devil is also a sinner. 1 John 3:8.

By Gods Own Commands Satan resists everything of God in Christ.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Who put that enmity between the parties?

Uh, God.

 

[beloved57]

Reconciliation is quite a wonderful matter of God in Christ to partake in. It is the joy of "real" Christianity to take the message of the Gospel to ALL people, that God is not counting sins against any of us.

2 Cor. 5:19.

Very few christians believe that is the message, however.

That also does not mean that sins are not being counted either. And this is where most of us stumble.

We can all see that the sins of others are demonic, of the devil. And we pity the slaves and the fools for their abuses by Satan.

But we never see our sins as "of the devil." 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15 etc. Nor do any of understand that our sins are being counted against Satan and his minions. And that Divine Retribution comes upon our own flesh in the form of DEATH. Romans 8:10.

It's an interesting dilemma that we've been Divinely dropped into here on earth in the flesh.

People are meant to be reconciled. Devils are meant to be resisted. Both of these "activities" transpire in the same location. IN US. Few can sort out or perceive the differences between these two goal posts and often confuse the players. It's not an easy gig and that's all there is to it.

God is counting sins against some or how can they die in their sins Jn 8:24 ?

 

[GodsGrace]

God is counting sins against some or how can they die in their sins Jn 8:24 ?

John 8:24 has a qualifier.

What is the qualifier??

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Rom 12:1-8 (ESV) provides the context of what is in red in Rom 12:3 (ESV):

I don't understand in this context that 'faith' refers to the truth of the Gospel that is believed. This would not be referred to as given to different Christian believers in differing measures because having faith in Jesus cannot be judged according to the quantity of faith.

The context makes it clearer as vv. 4 & 6 explain: 'For as in one body we have many members ... having gifts that differ'. 'For as' (v 4) launches into the meaning of 'measure of faith'. It is referring to the various needs of faith to deliver the diversity of gifts in the body.

Look at the various expressions that follow v. 3:

• 'the members do not all have the same function' (v 4 ESV);
• 'having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us' (v 6 ESV).

So it is clear there are different functions for the grace gifts given to people and for these different 'measures of faith' are needed.

Therefore, Paul is teaching that each member of the body of Christ receives his or her own measure of faith to exercise a diversity of gifts. So a Christian will be limited to his/her own sphere of activity in expression of his/her gift, based on the gracious, God-given measure of faith.

You have given examples of faith to move mountains (Matt 17:20). On a practical level, I consider that the measure of faith to be an apostle, prophet, or to be used as a healer would be a different measure to that of having the gift of helps or administrative actions.

I'm happy to rest in knowing that God's grace has given a different measure of faith to exercise certain gifts and that that does not apply to the faith to receive salvation.

If I'm in error with this assessment, I'm always open to correction.

Oz

I doubt I'll ever have to correct you Oz.
We may sometime have a different opinion on a CONCEPT,
but never on substance of a verse.

I read the above twice, and yes, i think I understand.
ANY amount of faith will suffice for salvation. This I've always understood.
But we each need a certain amount of faith for what we need to do.
IOW, if I'm a minister or pastor I need MORE faith for that ministry in order to do my work -
If I'm just a normal person witnessing or giving testimony, I won't need as much faith
as the pastor. Ditto for all other gifts.

I hope I've understood it correctly.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

God is counting sins against some or how can they die in their sins Jn 8:24 ?

Already cited scriptural reality. The body dies because of sin:

Romans 8:10

Sin is a condition of the flesh, of the body:

Romans 7:17-20
Gal. 5:17

There is a life past or beyond the flesh, the body:

Romans 6:7
Phil. 1:23

 

[beloved57]

John 8:24 has a qualifier.

What is the qualifier??

Wondering

You tell me, I didn't say anything about a qualifier, you did.

 

[beloved57]

Already cited scriptural reality. The body dies because of sin:

Romans 8:10

Sin is a condition of the flesh, of the body:

Romans 7:17-20
Gal. 5:17

There is a life past or beyond the flesh, the body:

Romans 6:7
Phil. 1:23

None of those scriptures answer the question

 

[GodsGrace]

You tell me, I didn't say anything about a qualifier, you did.

You don't make this easy beloved57.

Maybe you don't know what a qualifier is?
You could never just answer a question.
Too much time wasted getting to the point...

You said:
God is counting sins against some or how can they die in their sins Jn 8:24 ?


John 8:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Jesus was speaking to the Jews and telling them that they would die in their sins

IF (and now comes the qualifier)

they did not believe that HE was the Messiah from above, they would surely die in their sins.

IOW
They would die in their sins UNLESS they believed in Jesus.
IF they BELIEVED in Jesus then they WOULD NOT die in their sins.

Wondering