No conditions to be reconciled !

[OzSpen]

Those terms may be on my "radar" but just not in the manner you might think.
I do not subscribe to them. (oh if only I could)
I am going to try to keep this as simple as possible. (best that I can)

And I want you to keep the story of Jonah and Sampson firmly in your mind.

I have "hinted" at such subjects before...now it is time.
When God created the Heavens and the Earth...AKA the whole universe...
It is a self continuing and sustaining system...meaning that if God did nothing to intervene it would continue.
That would include our population of people...capable of adapting to their environments. We are gregarious by nature...meaning we need the inputs of our society to live much more comfortably.

Now as we go through a society...our role and function in that society is both nature and nurture...(not so much one or the other but both in harmony)
Certain people have a genetic predisposition to be kind and loving and moral where others have more base, carnal and animistic(good luck or talisman) pursuits.

People fall all over the scale. There are always those that achieve scholastically and those that can't figure out which end of a screwdriver to hold.

When it comes to religion...depending upon the society it is introduced in (Jonah story) it can be wholesale rejected or accepted. And then not exactly by all. There will always be a few. And it can actually be predicted along a Calculus formula line.
(it is a rather complex formula with lots of inputs affecting the outcome...but it is predictable)
it simply is a complex game of numbers involving personalities and genetics.
(Some of the genetics can be self induced or influenced)

Some may find the religion of the "Holy Hamster" (who tells us all how to live and be happy if we will only adhere to his words) to be offensive...but then there are those who will believe if a population group is large enough. Of course the demographics of the adherents will likely include a large portion of the mentally ill segment of the population.
So...when it comes time for the Gospel message that we believe in...we find a huge cross section of the population...but only in particular sub-sets. (of which the numbers are not really changing...only shifting locations)

But that isn't to say that there are not times that God directly puts his finger into this pot and stirs things up a bit.
Case in point is Sampson...He had some definite heart issues.
God never changed his heart...Sampson always had free will...and sometimes was rather stubborn about it. (some of us really are super stubborn...I included)
There is the whole focus of the Old Testament which is Jesus...yeah that is a definite stirring of the pot.
In fact the Bible is a "stirring of the pot"...it is a perfect book. Something that we cannot create. We cant get JRRTolkein to not contradict himself much less 60+ authors over a span of over 1500 years to agree perfectly...So God is stirring the pot.
We have lots of instances throughout the Bible and history where it is obvious...except to those self-conditioned not to see it...as also demonstrated in the Gospel account and predicted in Isaiah.
***************************************
Edited to add:
Of course this also means that there are those who try to hijack the religion and those who " warp" it to fit their own desires...but then again there is a subset who change themselves to fit into the guidelines set by the demands of beliefs they subscribe to.
****************************************

Those very few who are "sent" by God to intervene on God's behalf...be very very careful around them.
No one snowflake feels responsible for an avalanche which destroys a town...
But God has shown that his one snowflake can actually stop one.

There are too many issues here for which I do not find biblical support. Let's take one of them,

• 'meaning that if God did nothing to intervene it would continue'. That's a Deistic view of God. Scripture provides contrary evidence in Heb 1:3 (ESV), in speaking of the Son, 'he upholds the universe by the word of his power'. So the universe would not continue because it needs God, the Son, to uphold it by the word of his power.
• 'Certain people have a genetic predisposition to be kind and loving and moral where others have more base, carnal and animistic(good luck or talisman) pursuits'. What's the biblical evidence? 'All are sinners' (Rom 3:23 ESV) and what is their predisposition, 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us' (1 John 1:8 ESV). In fact, 1 John 1:8-10 (ESV) demonstrates that our predisposition is not to be kind and loving and moral, but to demonstrate sin because we are sinners by nature.

There are a number of other issues in this post to which I could respond, but that is for some others to do.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Not one of those scriptures says that God offers salvation to all mankind.

Titus 2:11 (NIV) does: 'For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people'. The ESV translates as, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people' (Titus 2:11 ESV).

So the grace of God has appeared (in Christ) to offer salvation or bring salvation to ALL people. It does not say 'all of the elect'.

There's no room to run and hide now.

Oz

 

[beloved57]

Titus 2:11 (NIV) does: 'For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people'. The ESV translates as, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people' (Titus 2:11 ESV).

So the grace of God has appeared (in Christ) to offer salvation or bring salvation to ALL people. It does not say 'all of the elect'.

There's no room to run and hide now.

Oz

Thats a poor translation. The word offer is not in the text. The word is bringeth salvation, not offer ! The emphasis is on the grace of God bringing a application of salvation.

Besides that, you still have Rom 5:10 to deal with which states clearly that believers were reconciled to God by the death of Christ while they were enemies. Thats not the case with all men without exception since many as enemies are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation Jn 3:18,36 !

 

[beloved57]

Repetition of the same as, same as verses has no more impact.

You have not dealt with the empact it has.

 

[beloved57]

It doesn't say some people who were enemies of God were condemned and some were not condemned because of limited atonement.

John 3:18 (ESV) states, 'Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God'. This does not teach that some enemies of God are under condemnation and wrath because they were forced to be that way because of God's predestination to damnation.

John 3:36 (ESV) states: 'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him'. Nothing is said here about how they came to believe or disbelieve. It tells what happens to those who believe and those who don't believe.

A repetitious quoting John 3:18, 36 throughout this thread, I do not find convincing.

Oz

Unbelievers and enemies are both the same. Those unbelievers in Jn 3:18, 36 are under Gods Wrath and condemnation. Do you deny that ?

 

[beloved57]

So, I'll correct my statement. The scriptures which demonstrate the fallacy of your position have been repeated posted for you to peruse. The choice for you to actually consider them is out of the posters hands. That is your responsibility.
Nothing can be demonstrated to you that you don't want to know.

I have no problem with those scriptures quoted. However just because you quote them, or anyone else quotes them, doesnt change the fact that some enemies are reconciled to God and some are not.

 

[OzSpen]

Thats a poor translation. The word offer is not in the text. The word is bringeth salvation, not offer ! The emphasis is on the grace of God bringing a application of salvation.

Besides that, you still have Rom 5:10 to deal with which states clearly that believers were reconciled to God by the death of Christ while they were enemies. Thats not the case with all men without exception since many as enemies are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation Jn 3:18,36 !

That's an excellent translation. The Greek of Titus 2:11 (Greek) reads:
Ἐπεφάνη γὰρ ἡ χάρις τοῦ θεοῦ σωτήριος πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις, which literally is,
appeared for the grace of God salvation for all men [people].

Now take that literal, word-for-word translation and make sense for the English reader.

• The NIV has done that with an excellent dynamic equivalence translation (meaning for meaning), 'For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people' (Tit 2:11 NIV);
  
• The ESV in formal equivalence translation (approx. word for word), 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people' (Tit 2:11 ESV), a superb translation;
• The NASB formal equivalence translation, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men' (Tit 2:11 NASB) - an excellent translation.
• The KJV formal equivalence translation: 'For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men' (Tit 2:11 KJV). Excellent translation but with old fashioned language.
  
• The ISV (International Standard Version) dynamic equivalence is: 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people' (Tit 2:11 ISV) - again, an excellent translation.
• The HCSB, a formal equivalence translation, 'For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people' (Tit 2:11 HCSB) - a great translation.
• The NRSV, a formal equivalence translation, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all' (Tit 2:11 NRSV) is another excellent translation.

Anyone who has had to translate large chunks of the Greek NT into English - as I have done through many years of study - knows that a literal word-for-word translation is impossible in many examples. This is one of those.

So that I can become better informed, please provide a more accurate translation of the Greek text of Titus 2:11 (Greek) than those from the examples I have given.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

You have not dealt with the empact it has.

I hope you mean impact and not empact.

Same as, same as repetition that does not deal with objections to the same as, still makes it repetitive same as. Repetition of your Rom 5:10 and John 3:18, 36 passages - and not considering the points of those who have provided refutations of the emphases given - can lead to ignoring these posts.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Unbelievers and enemies are both the same. Those unbelievers in Jn 3:18, 36 are under Gods Wrath and condemnation. Do you deny that ?

Of course I believe that unbelievers are under God's wrath, but what I know is that Jesus' death appeased the wrath of God for all, as 1 John 2:2 (ESV) affirms.

Also, this I know regarding what is necessary to receive salvation:

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved (Rom 10:8-10 NIV).

Rebel sinners who are under God's wrath and have that wrath appeased by Jesus are free to receive Jesus by faith, to believe in their hearts that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead. They are then justified by faith in professing their faith to be saved.

That's Bible!

Oz

 

[Mike]

This thread is becoming dysfunctional to the point that I wonder if it should continue. I could clear out the last ~10 posts either because they criticize the person and not the post, or because they do not support the objection at all. It would be beneficial to refresh yourselves on the guidelines for the A&T. Use scripture to support your position if you are refuting another's. Don't just parachute in with a "you're wrong" statement. That's not respectful or productive. Critique the person's position; not the person.

 

[beloved57]

Of course I believe that unbelievers are under God's wrath, but what I know is that Jesus' death appeased the wrath of God for all, as 1 John 2:2 (ESV) affirms.

Also, this I know regarding what is necessary to receive salvation:


Rebel sinners who are under God's wrath and have that wrath appeased by Jesus are free to receive Jesus by faith, to believe in their hearts that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead. They are then justified by faith in professing their faith to be saved.

That's Bible!

Oz

Unbelievers that Christ died for are not under Gods Wrath. They are reconciled to God Rom 5:10!

 

[beloved57]

I hope you mean impact and not empact.

Same as, same as repetition that does not deal with objections to the same as, still makes it repetitive same as. Repetition of your Rom 5:10 and John 3:18, 36 passages - and not considering the points of those who have provided refutations of the emphases given - can lead to ignoring these posts.

Oz

None of you can explain the proposition. The fact remains that those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10, but all enemies and unbelievers are not reconciled to God by Christ death but are under Gods condemnation and wrath John 3:18,36. So it is obvious that Christ death was not for all without exception.

 

[beloved57]

Ozpen

Of course I believe that unbelievers are under God's wrath, but what I know is that Jesus' death appeased the wrath of God for all, as 1 John 2:2 (ESV) affirms.

Those under Gods Wrath and Condemnation, Jesus death did not appease Gods Wrath for them. If it did they could not be under Gods Wrath. So you have made a false statement and inconsistent with scripture.

 

[beloved57]

That's an excellent translation. The Greek of Titus 2:11 (Greek) reads:
Ἐπεφάνη γὰρ ἡ χάρις τοῦ θεοῦ σωτήριος πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις, which literally is,
appeared for the grace of God salvation for all men [people].

Now take that literal, word-for-word translation and make sense for the English reader.

• The NIV has done that with an excellent dynamic equivalence translation (meaning for meaning), 'For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people' (Tit 2:11 NIV);
  
• The ESV in formal equivalence translation (approx. word for word), 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people' (Tit 2:11 ESV), a superb translation;
• The NASB formal equivalence translation, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men' (Tit 2:11 NASB) - an excellent translation.
• The KJV formal equivalence translation: 'For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men' (Tit 2:11 KJV). Excellent translation but with old fashioned language.
  
• The ISV (International Standard Version) dynamic equivalence is: 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people' (Tit 2:11 ISV) - again, an excellent translation.
• The HCSB, a formal equivalence translation, 'For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people' (Tit 2:11 HCSB) - a great translation.
• The NRSV, a formal equivalence translation, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all' (Tit 2:11 NRSV) is another excellent translation.

Anyone who has had to translate large chunks of the Greek NT into English - as I have done through many years of study - knows that a literal word-for-word translation is impossible in many examples. This is one of those.

So that I can become better informed, please provide a more accurate translation of the Greek text of Titus 2:11 (Greek) than those from the examples I have given.

Oz

Yes it's a poor translation. There's no scripture that says God offers salvation. Titus 2:11 says that the Grace of God brings Salvation to all men, not offers. You misquote scripture.

 

[beloved57]

That's an excellent translation. The Greek of Titus 2:11 (Greek) reads:
Ἐπεφάνη γὰρ ἡ χάρις τοῦ θεοῦ σωτήριος πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις, which literally is,
appeared for the grace of God salvation for all men [people].

Now take that literal, word-for-word translation and make sense for the English reader.

• The NIV has done that with an excellent dynamic equivalence translation (meaning for meaning), 'For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people' (Tit 2:11 NIV);
  
• The ESV in formal equivalence translation (approx. word for word), 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people' (Tit 2:11 ESV), a superb translation;
• The NASB formal equivalence translation, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men' (Tit 2:11 NASB) - an excellent translation.
• The KJV formal equivalence translation: 'For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men' (Tit 2:11 KJV). Excellent translation but with old fashioned language.
  
• The ISV (International Standard Version) dynamic equivalence is: 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people' (Tit 2:11 ISV) - again, an excellent translation.
• The HCSB, a formal equivalence translation, 'For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people' (Tit 2:11 HCSB) - a great translation.
• The NRSV, a formal equivalence translation, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all' (Tit 2:11 NRSV) is another excellent translation.

Anyone who has had to translate large chunks of the Greek NT into English - as I have done through many years of study - knows that a literal word-for-word translation is impossible in many examples. This is one of those.

So that I can become better informed, please provide a more accurate translation of the Greek text of Titus 2:11 (Greek) than those from the examples I have given.

Oz

Besides, Titus 2:11 says nothing to solve the issue that some sinners are reconciled to God by Christ death while they are enemies Rom 5:10 and some are not, and remain under Gods Wrath and Condemnation John 3:18,36.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes it's a poor translation. There's no scripture that says God offers salvation. Titus 2:11 says that the Grace of God brings Salvation to all men, not offers. You misquote scripture.

In #107, I asked for a more accurate translation to be provided, but I see that it is missing. How come?

Please note that 'brings' also is not in the Greek text. So 'brings salvation' is a poor translation also. Why would you be adding 'brings'?

I'm waiting for a better translation and the reasons for it being a superior translation.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Those under Gods Wrath and Condemnation, Jesus death did not appease Gods Wrath for them. If it did they could not be under Gods Wrath. So you have made a false statement and inconsistent with scripture.

That is not what 1 John 2:1-2 (ESV) teaches:

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

So Jesus is the propitiation (appeasing the wrath of God) for 'our' sins. Who are the people referred to as 'our'? Verse 1 tells us they are 'little children' for whom there is 'an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous'. So, John is referring to believers for whom Jesus propitiated the wrath of God.

But John goes further than propitiation for believers. He adds, 'but also for the sins of the whole world'. Ah, everybody in the world is included. Yes, 'the whole world'. This is not referring to the world of the elect believers. He has already mentioned these. They are the ones covered by the language of 'our sins'. But he goes further to include everyone in the big, wide, wonderful world - sinners all.

The problem seems to be the inability to grasp how Jesus could be the propitiation for all people and that all people are not saved (universalism). That's because of a failure to grasp what Jesus taught according to John 5:40 (ESV), 'yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life'.

People are freed to come or refuse to come to Jesus for eternal life. That's Bible.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

None of you can explain the proposition. The fact remains that those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10, but all enemies and unbelievers are not reconciled to God by Christ death but are under Gods condemnation and wrath John 3:18,36. So it is obvious that Christ death was not for all without exception.

The begging the question fallacy, i.e. circular reasoning, continues.

 

[beloved57]

Of course I believe that unbelievers are under God's wrath, but what I know is that Jesus' death appeased the wrath of God for all, as 1 John 2:2 (ESV) affirms.

Also, this I know regarding what is necessary to receive salvation


Rebel sinners who are under God's wrath and have that wrath appeased by Jesus are free to receive Jesus by faith, to believe in their hearts that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead. They are then justified by faith in professing their faith to be saved.

That's Bible!

Oz

Not all enemies and rebel sinners are under Gods Wrath, for those who Christ died for are reconciled to God while being rebels and unbelievers Rom 5:10.

 

[Cygnus]

This is a standard Calvinistic reply to the content of 2 Peter 3:9 (NIV), 'Not wanting anyone to perish'. ANY means ANY not ANY Jews, ANY Gentiles, ANY of the elect. It means ANY people.

2 Peter 3:9 (NIV) states, 'The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some [Gk. tines] understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone [Gk. tinas] to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The Greek tells me that 'some' (tines) understand slowness BUT God does not want anyone (tinas) to perish. As A T Robertson, an eminent Greek scholar of the 20th century, put it,


Oz

Works consulted
Robertson, A T 1933. Word Pictures in the New Testament: The General Epistles and The Revelation of John, vol 6. Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press. Also available HERE.

replying with "This is a standard Calvinistic reply"..really isn't a very good responce. For instance in 2 Peter 3;1 just a few verses earlier Peter address those whom he as written to as "US".
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence..
Notice Peter didn't say "ALL". So, it is not without reason the Calvinist consider the "all" as refering to the elect.

In light of that,
John 6:39 also states..."And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day."

If Christ Jesus loses none that the Father gives Him...the "all" can't mean every single human as the universalist suggest...because many are lost.