No conditions to be reconciled !

[OzSpen]

Not all enemies and rebel sinners are under Gods Wrath, for those who Christ died for are reconciled to God while being rebels and unbelievers Rom 5:10.

In #107, I asked concerning Titus 2:11 (SBL Greek NT), for a better translation of this verse that makes sense in English:

Ἐπεφάνη γὰρ ἡ χάρις τοῦ θεοῦ σωτήριος πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις,
appeared for the grace of the God salvation for all men.

I still await a better and more accurate translation than the seven (7) committee English Bible translations I provided in #107.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

replying with "This is a standard Calvinistic reply"..really isn't a very good responce. For instance in 2 Peter 3;1 just a few verses earlier Peter address those whom he as written to as "US".
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence..
Notice Peter didn't say "ALL". So, it is not without reason the Calvinist consider the "all" as refering to the elect.

In light of that,
John 6:39 also states..."And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day."

If Christ Jesus loses none that the Father gives Him...the "all" can't mean every single human as the universalist suggest...because many are lost.

The verse you gave is incorrect. It is not 2 Peter 3:1 (ESV) that you quote, but 2 Peter 1:3 (ESV). I'm using the ESV as my Bible reference to coordinate with CFnet's Bible translation facility online. The reason Peter uses us in 1 Pet 1:3 (ESV) is because he wrote 'to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours' (2 Pet 1:2 ESV). He wrote to Christian believers.

Because he writes to believers does not eliminate his inclusion of content about unbelievers as 2 Pet 3 (ESV) demonstrates. The connection you want to make with 'US' and 'ALL' to make 'US' refer to the elect, has no connection with 2 Pet 3:9 (ESV). Thus, John 6:39 (ESV) is a red herring that has no relevance to this discussion.

Let's stick with 2 Peter 3 (ESV) as the verse I quoted is 2 Peter 3:9 (ESV) with God not being willing that any should perish. Yes, this book is addressed to the 'beloved' (3:1, 8), Christian believers, but that does not limit its message to believers. How do we know? 2 Peter 3:3 (ESV) speaks of 'scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing' (3:3) and that scoffing will include, 'Where is the promise of his coming?' (3:4)

Then Peter proceeds with the message to these scoffers (2 Pet 3:4ff ESV). Then 2 Pet 3:7 (ESV) reminds these scoffers that the heavens and earth are stored up for the fire of destruction, 'being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly'. Note the emphasis here - the ungodly. Then 2 Pet 3:10 (ESV) gives more specific information about the day of the Lord - the day of judgment. It will come suddenly and there will be devastation for the heavens and the earth.

A message to the scoffers (2 Pet 3:8-9 ESV) that is a fact that must not be overlooked was that 'with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day'. In addition, beloved, 'the Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise' and this involves his patience, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance' (2 Pet 3:9 ESV).

Of course this book is written to believers, the beloved, but its message contains content regarding the ungodly. So far in what I've covered of 2 Pet 3 (ESV), we have seen that the teaching about unbelievers includes:

• scoffers will come in the last days;
• The scoffers question: Where is the promise of his coming?
• There will be a day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly;
• This day of judgment will mean devastation for the heavens and the earth - and for unbelievers.
  
• It's a fact: The Lord is not wishing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance.

Oz

 

[beloved57]

In #107, I asked concerning Titus 2:11 (SBL Greek NT), for a better translation of this verse that makes sense in English:

Ἐπεφάνη γὰρ ἡ χάρις τοῦ θεοῦ σωτήριος πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις,
appeared for the grace of the God salvation for all men.

I still await a better and more accurate translation than the seven (7) committee English Bible translations I provided in #107.

Oz

You can await all you want, nothing changes the fact that some sinners because of Christ's death are reconciled to God while they are enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10 and some are not because as enemies and unbelievers they are under Gods wrath and condemnation Jn 3:18,36 and Titus 2:11 doesnt say that its not true. So its only a waste of time and a diversion from the point made.

 

[Cygnus]

The verse you gave is incorrect. It is not 2 Peter 3:1 (ESV) that you quote, but 2 Peter 1:3 (ESV). I'm using the ESV as my Bible reference to coordinate with CFnet's Bible translation facility online. The reason Peter uses us in 1 Pet 1:3 (ESV) is because he wrote 'to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours' (2 Pet 1:2 ESV). He wrote to Christian believers.
rest snipped.
Oz

Good thing I made that mistake....Peter tell them it is the second time writing to THEM.

 

[beloved57]

Good thing I made that mistake....Peter tell them it is the second time writing to THEM.

These conversations have evaded the points made in the OP !

 

[JohnDB]

There are too many issues here for which I do not find biblical support. Let's take one of them,

• 'meaning that if God did nothing to intervene it would continue'. That's a Deistic view of God. Scripture provides contrary evidence in Heb 1:3 (ESV), in speaking of the Son, 'he upholds the universe by the word of his power'. So the universe would not continue because it needs God, the Son, to uphold it by the word of his power.
• 'Certain people have a genetic predisposition to be kind and loving and moral where others have more base, carnal and animistic(good luck or talisman) pursuits'. What's the biblical evidence? 'All are sinners' (Rom 3:23 ESV) and what is their predisposition, 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us' (1 John 1:8 ESV). In fact, 1 John 1:8-10 (ESV) demonstrates that our predisposition is not to be kind and loving and moral, but to demonstrate sin because we are sinners by nature.

There are a number of other issues in this post to which I could respond, but that is for some others to do.

Oz

What I did was blend known science with known scriptures. The scriptures prove the science.
Now as far as the physical brain structures which makes people more predisposed to be happy, sad, angry, smart, or into talismans...all the research isn't in on this yet. Because new studies are showing that we can influence our own dispositions and genetics.

Kinda like "no one can be this foolish by chance...I had to practice long and hard to get this stupid"

The hedonism circle is a known issue where the more hedonism a person practices the more they wish for.

But as far as God's support of the Universe... No argument there. There is something that keeps things going or it will end in chaos fairly quickly. The Universe is somewhat self sustaining... But not completely. And science has no means to ever measure God.
There are no scales to measure holiness nor the amount of Holy Spirit someone has...but treating the Holy or the Holy Spirit as common are very dangerous actions.

 

[OzSpen]

You can await all you want, nothing changes the fact that some sinners because of Christ's death are reconciled to God while they are enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10 and some are not because as enemies and unbelievers they are under Gods wrath and condemnation Jn 3:18,36 and Titus 2:11 doesnt say that its not true. So its only a waste of time and a diversion from the point made.

This is a red herring of a reply. I still await your more accurate translation of Titus 2:11 (ESV) than the 7 Bible translations I gave you.

Please provide a translation of this verse into readable English that makes sense:

Ἐπεφάνη γὰρ ἡ χάρις τοῦ θεοῦ σωτήριος πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις,
appeared for the grace of the God salvation for all men.

Oz

 

[Roro1972]

OK,
When looking at a Scripture I look at the whole context including Who, When, Why, and what occasion is this being said in the manner it's being said in.

A member of the Sanhedrin council comes to Jesus during the "socialization time" which is what nighttime was for. And engages in conversations.

Everyone is especially concerned with tehora. (Ceremonial cleanliness)

Jesus is relating more truth than Nicodemus can really get his head around. (Jesus is giving him the fire hose to drink from)

Nicodemus is talking about a whole life "do over" as to the magnitude of Jesus' statements...along with a remembrance of Jesus' miracles.

This, in John, is part of the proof of the inclusion of the Gentiles into Judaism... Which was only allowed by adopting Gentiles into a Jewish family.
But now, as evidenced by the "tongues" or languages on Pentecost the fulfilment of the real promise to Abraham is going to be fulfilled. "Father of many nations".

In a caste based faith based culture this is a complete undoing of the whole Apple Cart. It had to be discussed with " Israel's teacher ".

This is why John 3:16 says what it says...

John 1:12 is all about limits. Receiving and believing.

if we were adopted into the Jewish family we would have to circumcise males, eat kosher and a few other things.

 

[JohnDB]

if we were adopted into the Jewish family we would have to circumcise males, eat kosher and a few other things.

Giving up BBQ spare ribs on memorial day would be torturous in this household.

But it happens actually.
In Acts 6 it mentions 7 guys of the "Hellenized Jews" one of which was a true Greek Convert to Judaism...which now believed in Jesus. He went through the arduous process of becoming adopted just to give it all up.

Kinda hard core in my book...but God chose Stephen to be the first martyr...the finest honor to be bestowed upon any. Then Jesus stood to honor Stephan's arrival into Heaven.

That's what being a true believer is all about. Don't think I could ever live up to that kind of Schwartz. And I'm as hard core as they come.

 

[Roro1972]

Giving up BBQ spare ribs on memorial day would be torturous in this household.

But it happens actually.
In Acts 6 it mentions 7 guys of the "Hellenized Jews" one of which was a true Greek Convert to Judaism...which now believed in Jesus. He went through the arduous process of becoming adopted just to give it all up.

Kinda hard core in my book...but God chose Stephen to be the first martyr...the finest honor to be bestowed upon any. Then Jesus stood to honor Stephan's arrival into Heaven.

That's what being a true believer is all about. Don't think I could ever live up to that kind of Schwartz. And I'm as hard core as they come.

I do not see anything in Acts 6 that tells me Christians (church) were adopted into the Jewish family.
her in 11 Jews are complaining of saved gentiles ways
2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

 

[JohnDB]

I do not see anything in Acts 6 that tells me Christians (church) were adopted into the Jewish family.
her in 11 Jews are complaining of saved gentiles ways
2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

Not what I meant.
I said that there was one guy (Nicolas) who was from Antioch and was a proselyte of Judaism. (Meaning he had to go through the adoption process)

Now Nicolas gave up his adopted status and all the rituals to worship Jesus (who required none)

Acts 6:5

 

[MarkT]

Reconciled while being enemies !
False religionists, who reject Salvation by Grace, do also reject the Truth of God's Grace, that those Christ has died for, had been reconciled to God, by that Death, while they were enemiesRom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

This reconciliation to God was without them meeting any conditions, not any requirements, in fact it occurred while they were in a state of hostility and hatred and enmity against God;

And it was while they were being so, that they were actually reconciled, that is brought into harmony and agreement with God, received into His Favor and Friendship ! Dont be deceived by false teachers, they were reconciled to God, not potentially reconciled to God, it was not just possibly and not actually, they were reconciled to God on the bases of the Death of Christ. If it was only made possible, Christ's Death fell far short of the Glory of God. They were all reconciled to God and put in harmony with Him, as they had been when they were in harmony with God in Adam before the fall !

The fleshly carnal mind ruled by pride cannot receive this Grace Truth, it rejects it every time !

OK. I agree with that. We were sinners when we first heard the word; we were reconciled to him while we were sinners. Of course we had to be sinners to be reconciled to him. This was so that God would be glorified.

However, when you say he didn't die for all men, I would have to disagree.
1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe.

If he didn't die for all men, then how could they be condemned for not believing in him?

 

[Jim Parker]

If he didn't die for all men, then how could they be condemned for not believing in him?

If I knew I was one of the men Jesus did NOT die for, why would I have any interest in Him. (Since He had none in me)
The question is based on the absurdity of limited atonement; it is a nonsense question.
John 3:16 says God so loves the world (Gr: KOSMOS).... Christ did not just die for sinners but for all of creation.
Rev 21:5 (RSV) And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new."

 

[OzSpen]

If I knew I was one of the men Jesus did NOT die for, why would I have any interest in Him. (Since He had none in me)
The question is based on the absurdity of limited atonement; it is a nonsense question.
John 3:16 says God so loves the world (Gr: KOSMOS).... Christ did not just die for sinners but for all of creation.
Rev 21:5 (RSV) And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new."

Jim,

John Calvin's answer to your absurd question of limited atonement is related to Calvin's support for double predestination. The saved and the damned are predestined by God Himself to their eternal destiny. I examined this in my article: Did John Calvin believe in double predestination?

The answer is, 'Yes, he did promote double predestination', and I've provided some evidence in this article.

Matt Slick of CARM, a Calvinistic ministry, had to admit there is evidence to demonstrate that Jesus died for everyone:

• John 1:29, “The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, ‘Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'”
• John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
• John 4:42, “and they were saying to the woman, ‘It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.'”
• 1 Tim. 4:10, “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.”
• 1 John 2:2, “and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.”
• 1 John 4:14, “And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.”

Some thoughts from a fellow traveller.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

John Calvin's answer to your absurd question of limited atonement is related to Calvin's support for double predestination. The saved and the damned are predestined by God Himself to their eternal destiny.

Yes. I cannot believe in that god. It is not the God of the Bible.

1 John 4:14, “And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.”

Not "some of" the world.

jim

 

[OzSpen]

Yes. I cannot believe in that god. It is not the God of the Bible.

Not "some of" the world.

jim

Surely you realise that interpretation of 1 John 4:14, “And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world", supports universalism! Therefore the meaning 'of the world' must surely be 'some from groups of the world'!

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

Surely you realise that interpretation of 1 John 4:14, “And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world", supports universalism! Therefore the meaning 'of the world' must surely be 'some from groups of the world'!

Oz

On the one hand, I don't think a conclusion that the words "savior of the world" in 1 John 4:14 necessarily supports universalism. It seems to me to tell us that salvation is universally available to whoever will repent and believe.
On the other hand, it does mean that all of mankind have been saved from physical death because all will rise immortal and incorruptible never to physically die again. (1 Cor 15:54-56) The circumstances of that immortality are dependent upon the what each individual did and sis not do. (John 5:28-29; Ro 6:2-10; Mat 25:31-46) Some will "inherit the kingdom" (Mat 25:34) and some will "depart into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Mat 25:41)
But all have been saved from the death that is the wages of sin.

jim

 

[OzSpen]

On the one hand, I don't think a conclusion that the words "savior of the world" in 1 John 4:14 necessarily supports universalism. It seems to me to tell us that salvation is universally available to whoever will repent and believe.
On the other hand, it does mean that all of mankind have been saved from physical death because all will rise immortal and incorruptible never to physically die again. (1 Cor 15:54-56) The circumstances of that immortality are dependent upon the what each individual did and sis not do. (John 5:28-29; Ro 6:2-10; Mat 25:31-46) Some will "inherit the kingdom" (Mat 25:34) and some will "depart into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Mat 25:41)
But all have been saved from the death that is the wages of sin.

jim

Jim,

I was giving you a tongue-in-cheek Calvinistic response that has been given to me over and over on Christian forums. I wrote about this in my article, Calvin’s appalling interpretation of ‘all men’.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant in your last sentence, 'But all have been saved from the death that is the wages of sin'. If you are saying that believers are saved from eternal death, I can agree with you. But that is not so for unbelievers, in my understanding. I'd be interested to hear your ruminations on your last sentence.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim,

I was giving you a tongue-in-cheek Calvinistic response that has been given to me over and over on Christian forums. I wrote about this in my article, Calvin’s appalling interpretation of ‘all men’.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant in your last sentence, 'But all have been saved from the death that is the wages of sin'. If you are saying that believers are saved from eternal death, I can agree with you. But that is not so for unbelievers, in my understanding. I'd be interested to hear your ruminations on your last sentence.
Oz

All of mankind has been saved from the physical death which is the wages of sin.
All of mankind will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible
Jesus, by His incarnation, death and resurrection has destroyed the power which death had to hold mankind in the grave.

1Co 15:51 (RSV) Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

All will be resurrected and be judged according to their works and sent to their eternal rewards; some to inherit the kingdom and some to the hell prepared for the devil and his angels (John 5:28-29; Ro 6:2-10; Mat 25:31-46) But none will ever physically die again.

And that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :yes

jim

 

[OzSpen]

All of mankind has been saved from the physical death which is the wages of sin.
All of mankind will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible
Jesus, by His incarnation, death and resurrection has destroyed the power which death had to hold mankind in the grave.

1Co 15:51 (RSV) Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

All will be resurrected and be judged according to their works and sent to their eternal rewards; some to inherit the kingdom and some to the hell prepared for the devil and his angels (John 5:28-29; Ro 6:2-10; Mat 25:31-46) But none will ever physically die again.

And that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :yes

jim

Jim,

I still have trouble with your first sentence, 'All of mankind has been saved from the physical death which is the wages of sin'. There will be only one group of human beings who will be saved from physical death, which is the wages of sin. That will be those who are still alive at Christ's second coming.

Have I missed something that you were trying to communicate?

Oz