*** No one actually makes choices

[Danus]

God enables choice in regard to salvation. By grace he gives back the choice mankind surrendered when Adam fell in sin.

I don't think that's the same as God making or not making the choice for forgiveness and salvation for us, but making the choice possible as he gives the faith to do that. For as someone has already pointed out, many are called but few are chosen. The calling goes out to many, but few respond. Some simply reject what God enables them to know is true about salvation and the judgment to come.

Sorry, been away.

The verse in Matthew 22:14 "many are called but few are chosen" is not giving credence to the idea that we can, or will, freely choose salvation; is it. Since the one doing the choosing in that verse is not the recipient of the words, or do you think it is?

Would you freely choose God on your own with out Gods influence? If your free will allows you to simply do whatever you want and God did not effect you in some way, would you 'choose" Him?

 

[smaller]

This might ultimately get moved, or locked, or computers might just get thrown through windows, but I thought it'd be fun to post it anyway with a bold statement to say that NO ONE MAKES CHOICES. We only think we do, but all we are actually doing in life is stepping into our own fates to-which there is no alternative.

I've brought this up before, and some of my friends hate it, but others have started to see it as true also.

BALDERDASH! , you say? (or whatever you say to reflect Senseless talk or writing; nonsense) :

Well then what do you say?

I totally agree with your sight above.

Perfecting of the saints is not left to ourselves nor can that logically be the case. Perfection is a One Directional matter that can only be Performed by God Himself.

And in His Own Way are each of us 'finely' chiseled and chopped.

s

 

[Adullam]

I decided to not say anything on this thread... ;)

 

[smaller]

I decided to not say anything on this thread... ;)

When you decide to make yourself sinless by such decisions, by all means advise!

 

[Danus]

***** It's time to explain this thread ***

Although I thought there would be more, the reactions and thoughts received so far are about what I had anticipated trying to answer an OP with blown smoke on the real issue. I appreciate the responses, and now it's time to clear the smoke a little, and post the point of what this was all about.

I titled the thread "No one actually makes choices", but we're not really talking about choices as much as we are talking about change. Stick with me, if your "willing".

My intent with this thread was to provoke some thought on the subject of "free will".

I did not want to title my thread "Free Will" because frankly we have enough of those, and I figured I'd attack the subject in reverse order where it hits the most in the minds of many when contemplating what it means to have "free will", and address the subject of change in terms of time, and our power as individuals to effectively change by way of our own will; the past, the present, and the future.

For many free will is the ability to choose freely, but with that most people tend to include the idea of change with the notion of choice.

It's only natural. I can chose A then I can changed my mind, and chose B. I have options and the possibilities are endless. This is to suggest that a choice made will alter the corse of a given direction in the way we choose it to be by our own will.

I know what your asking; So do you believe we have choices or not Danus?! ....... Yes. I do, but not in the way some of you might think of choices.

Choice and change are not synonymous to the will of man. They may seem to be, but the fact is, no one makes a choice they where not already inclined to make to begin with.

RC Sproul once commented about a time when he held a lecture on the topic of predestination at his church. He noticed a man there who he'd had several debates with on the topic of free will. He walked up to greet the man saying; "Hey glad you came! I am surprised to see you here." The man said to him; "well, I didn't want to come, but my wife made me." To which RC replied; "Made you? She did not make you. You chose to come because you did not want to upset your wife. This was your inclination, and by your own free will to do so, but not your choice."

Free will, to make choices does not mean we can or will, choose anything given the options of a choice, ie this or that. In fact, man does not really choose freely at all, because we are limited not by outside forces, but we are limited by our own self more than anything else.

RC Spoul put's it this way; "One of the most important limits on my freedom is myself. If we examine the workings of the will closely we run into a point of irony that is often overlooked in discussions about free will. The point is this: Not only may I choose what I want, I must choose what I want if my choice is really to be free. Choice is made according to desire. Without desire there could be no free choice—certainly no moral choice."

Think deeply about this.

In order for free will, or free choice, to be free, I must choose what I want.

Think about it; No one chooses what they don't want and calls it a free choice, by free will.

If someone tells you that you can choose Option A or option B, but you can't choose B, or you should not choose B, because that's just the wrong choice, or an end, and the only right option is A, but you want B ....that's not free will if you choose A because your afraid of what you really want.

Yet. this is pretty much the "free will argument" in Christianity among mankind. Has been for a long time. In fact, we have institutionalized this very ironic way of thinking about God, salvation, and what's best for all....for a long, long time.

" I must choose what I want if my choice is really to be free." This is absolute undeniable truth.

No one chooses what they do not desire, because if they did then they would not be choosing freely by their own will to freely choose. They would be forced, of pushed into making a choice that is not their own. In this since no one has option A or B because they already have an inclination freely to one of those. There is no choice beyond the will to choose, unless the will is changed.

If the will of man is sinful by nature he will chose according to his own will, sin. The only way he will choose righteousness is if his will is changed. If he has the power to change his will freely, then he does not need God, but is he does not have the power to change his will freely, then he does need God. The bible tells us that God is the one who initiates change.

People often think that "Calvinist" believe that there are two sets of Christians who both believe in Christ, but only one is going to haven because they are chosen elect, and the other is not.

This is not the case of Calvin, or reformed theology. All who believe are elect in Christ. But the reason I think many non-Calvinist think this is what Calvin was saying is because they fail to see the definition of free will in the way Calvin understood it, which is to say that because man's nature is sinful by nature, his desires are limited to his own self, and he will choose what he wants in order to choose freely, and because of this, he really has no choice but that which he is inclined to freely choose.

This is both liberating and disturbing. Depends on how you see your own choices in life, because if you choose God, then you chose him freely, and if you chose him freely you did so with a desire to choose him, and if you have a desire for God, it is because God has a desire for you by his choice and not our own, because a sinful nature does not choose God. A sinful nature has to first be inclined not to be what it is.

People will sometimes ask me why I refer to myself as a sinner, or a saved sinner. Easy, I could never choose God. I tried, but never could, and so I choose the only thing I was inclined to choose, just as so many others in this life do.

How liberating it was to not be shackled by rules of right and wrong when I was an atheist I never looked back. Right and wrong where what ever I said they where. But little did I know of the prison I was building my own prison.

Look around. there are plenty of people who do not choose God, and nothing you say to them will make a difference if they do not have a desire to do so. people will freely choose what they are inclined to choose.

I am not an atheist today. I follow Christ and have been for more than 20 years. This was not my choice, but because I had run out of choices on my own, God chose me. That is salvation and I now choose what I am inclined to choose. I do not choose what I do not want, but that does not mean I'm not a sinner still. I still have an old nature until I am perfected.

Romans 7:15-24
New International Version (NIV)

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

 

[Cassian]

***** It's time to explain this thread ***

Although I thought there would be more, the reactions and thoughts received so far are about what I had anticipated trying to answer an OP with blown smoke on the real issue. I appreciate the responses, and now it's time to clear the smoke a little, and post the point of what this was all about.

I titled the thread "No one actually makes choices", but we're not really talking about choices as much as we are talking about change. Stick with me, if your "willing".

My intent with this thread was to provoke some thought on the subject of "free will".

I did not want to title my thread "Free Will" because frankly we have enough of those, and I figured I'd attack the subject in reverse order where it hits the most in the minds of many when contemplating what it means to have "free will", and address the subject of change in terms of time, and our power as individuals to effectively change by way of our own will; the past, the present, and the future.

For many free will is the ability to choose freely, but with that most people tend to include the idea of change with the notion of choice.

It's only natural. I can chose A then I can changed my mind, and chose B. I have options and the possibilities are endless. This is to suggest that a choice made will alter the corse of a given direction in the way we choose it to be by our own will.

I know what your asking; So do you believe we have choices or not Danus?! ....... Yes. I do, but not in the way some of you might think of choices.

Choice and change are not synonymous to the will of man. They may seem to be, but the fact is, no one makes a choice they where not already inclined to make to begin with.

RC Sproul once commented about a time when he held a lecture on the topic of predestination at his church. He noticed a man there who he'd had several debates with on the topic of free will. He walked up to greet the man saying; "Hey glad you came! I am surprised to see you here." The man said to him; "well, I didn't want to come, but my wife made me." To which RC replied; "Made you? She did not make you. You chose to come because you did not want to upset your wife. This was your inclination, and by your own free will to do so, but not your choice."

Free will, to make choices does not mean we can or will, choose anything given the options of a choice, ie this or that. In fact, man does not really choose freely at all, because we are limited not by outside forces, but we are limited by our own self more than anything else.

RC Spoul put's it this way; "One of the most important limits on my freedom is myself. If we examine the workings of the will closely we run into a point of irony that is often overlooked in discussions about free will. The point is this: Not only may I choose what I want, I must choose what I want if my choice is really to be free. Choice is made according to desire. Without desire there could be no free choice—certainly no moral choice."

Think deeply about this.

In order for free will, or free choice, to be free, I must choose what I want.

Think about it; No one chooses what they don't want and calls it a free choice, by free will.

If someone tells you that you can choose Option A or option B, but you can't choose B, or you should not choose B, because that's just the wrong choice, or an end, and the only right option is A, but you want B ....that's not free will if you choose A because your afraid of what you really want.

Yet. this is pretty much the "free will argument" in Christianity among mankind. Has been for a long time. In fact, we have institutionalized this very ironic way of thinking about God, salvation, and what's best for all....for a long, long time.

" I must choose what I want if my choice is really to be free." This is absolute undeniable truth.

No one chooses what they do not desire, because if they did then they would not be choosing freely by their own will to freely choose. They would be forced, of pushed into making a choice that is not their own. In this since no one has option A or B because they already have an inclination freely to one of those. There is no choice beyond the will to choose, unless the will is changed.

If the will of man is sinful by nature he will chose according to his own will, sin. The only way he will choose righteousness is if his will is changed. If he has the power to change his will freely, then he does not need God, but is he does not have the power to change his will freely, then he does need God. The bible tells us that God is the one who initiates change.

People often think that "Calvinist" believe that there are two sets of Christians who both believe in Christ, but only one is going to haven because they are chosen elect, and the other is not.

This is not the case of Calvin, or reformed theology. All who believe are elect in Christ. But the reason I think many non-Calvinist think this is what Calvin was saying is because they fail to see the definition of free will in the way Calvin understood it, which is to say that because man's nature is sinful by nature, his desires are limited to his own self, and he will choose what he wants in order to choose freely, and because of this, he really has no choice but that which he is inclined to freely choose.

This is both liberating and disturbing. Depends on how you see your own choices in life, because if you choose God, then you chose him freely, and if you chose him freely you did so with a desire to choose him, and if you have a desire for God, it is because God has a desire for you by his choice and not our own, because a sinful nature does not choose God. A sinful nature has to first be inclined not to be what it is.

People will sometimes ask me why I refer to myself as a sinner, or a saved sinner. Easy, I could never choose God. I tried, but never could, and so I choose the only thing I was inclined to choose, just as so many others in this life do.

How liberating it was to not be shackled by rules of right and wrong when I was an atheist I never looked back. Right and wrong where what ever I said they where. But little did I know of the prison I was building my own prison.

Look around. there are plenty of people who do not choose God, and nothing you say to them will make a difference if they do not have a desire to do so. people will freely choose what they are inclined to choose.

I am not an atheist today. I follow Christ and have been for more than 20 years. This was not my choice, but because I had run out of choices on my own, God chose me. That is salvation and I now choose what I am inclined to choose. I do not choose what I do not want, but that does not mean I'm not a sinner still. I still have an old nature until I am perfected.

Romans 7:15-24
New International Version (NIV)

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

It does not matter from what direction you might come, when it is based on a false premise.

Man does not have a sinful nature. Man has a mortal nature that is sinful. Man can choose to sin or not to sin. All men are the same. God created man the same. All men fell by the same condemnation through Adam, death. And all men were saved from death by Christ, I Cor 15:22, Rom 5:18 among many others.

Calvinism has created a creature that does not exist in scripture.

 

[reba]

Very nicely stated Danus

 

[Danus]

[video=google;5447393660509611469]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5447393660509611469[/video]

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This might ultimately get moved, or locked, or computers might just get thrown through windows, but I thought it'd be fun to post it anyway with a bold statement to say that NO ONE MAKES CHOICES. We only think we do, but all we are actually doing in life is stepping into our own fates to-which there is no alternative.

I've brought this up before, and some of my friends hate it, but others have started to see it as true also.

BALDERDASH! , you say? (or whatever you say to reflect Senseless talk or writing; nonsense) :

Well then what do you say?

Jonah 1:1-3 "Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me. But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD."

If Jonah had no choice of his own will, then his going to Tarshish was something God apparently made him do. Then we have God forcing Jonah to disobey Him just so God could punish Jonah, which makes no sense and proves no point.

Jonah making his own choice of his own free will to disobey God and God punishing him for that abuse of his free will does makes sense and proves a point..God will punish those that choose to disobey Him.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Acts 2:23 "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: "


If the Jews had no free will choice of their own in murdering the Messiah, then God forced them to do it making God guilty of murder and the Jews were nothing more than a "weapon" God used to murder. And Peter was wrong for putting this sin of murder upon the Jews for it was God's "wicked hands have crucified and slain".

 

[Danus]

Jonah 1:1-3 "Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me. But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD."

If Jonah had no choice of his own will, then his going to Tarshish was something God apparently made him do. Then we have God forcing Jonah to disobey Him just so God could punish Jonah, which makes no sense and proves no point.

Jonah making his own choice of his own free will to disobey God and God punishing him for that abuse of his free will does makes sense and proves a point..God will punish those that choose to disobey Him.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Acts 2:23 "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: "


If the Jews had no free will choice of their own in murdering the Messiah, then God forced them to do it making God guilty of murder and the Jews were nothing more than a "weapon" God used to murder. And Peter was wrong for putting this sin of murder upon the Jews for it was God's "wicked hands have crucified and slain".

....Well lets talk about that ol'Jonah. You bring up a good example. Maybe God allowed him to make his own decision, but look at the outcome. Did Jonah plan to be in the belly of a fish? Also, what did Johna end up doing? wjhat he did not want to do or what God wanted him to do? What was that outcome?

 

[BobE]

This might ultimately get moved, or locked, or computers might just get thrown through windows, but I thought it'd be fun to post it anyway with a bold statement to say that NO ONE MAKES CHOICES. We only think we do, but all we are actually doing in life is stepping into our own fates to-which there is no alternative.

I've brought this up before, and some of my friends hate it, but others have started to see it as true also.

BALDERDASH! , you say? (or whatever you say to reflect Senseless talk or writing; nonsense) :

Well then what do you say?

It was interesting as I was reading the title of the thread, I was aware of a choice point. I could click on it, and read; or I could simply ignore it. I felt inclinations in both directions. I paused, I considered my options, and I selected one.

Even if this was somehow "fated," in real time, I experienced the phenomenon of volition.

Some believe, philosophically, that I really didn't have a choice because some higher power actually selected this course for me in advance. I don't happen to believe that, but even if I did, my experience of choice was a matter of subjective reality for me.

My philosophy for the day

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

....Well lets talk about that ol'Jonah. You bring up a good example. Maybe God allowed him to make his own decision, but look at the outcome. Did Jonah plan to be in the belly of a fish? Also, what did Johna end up doing? wjhat he did not want to do or what God wanted him to do? What was that outcome?

God created all men with free will and allows man to excerise that gift.

The fact God punished Jonah for the choice Jonah made does not mean Jonah had no free will to choose. You have the free will to choose to rob or not rob a bank. If you choose to rob the bank, when you get caught you will go to jail against your will, but that punishment does not mean you never had free will. Once you are let out of jail that punishment was meant to affect your future choices where you will be far less likely to rob a bank again, but you still can rob again if you choose and go to jail again. After Jonah was punished for his bad choice he was less likely to choose to disobey again, though he could. We are told in Jonah 3 "And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee." And what did Jonah of his own free will choose to do? "So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD." That's the outcome.

 

[Danus]

God created all men with free will and allows man to excerise that gift.

The fact God punished Jonah for the choice Jonah made does not mean Jonah had no free will to choose. You have the free will to choose to rob or not rob a bank. If you choose to rob the bank, when you get caught you will go to jail against your will, but that punishment does not mean you never had free will. Once you are let out of jail that punishment was meant to affect your future choices where you will be far less likely to rob a bank again, but you still can rob again if you choose and go to jail again. After Jonah was punished for his bad choice he was less likely to choose to disobey again, though he could. We are told in Jonah 3 "And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee." And what did Jonah of his own free will choose to do? "So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD." That's the outcome.

Exactly, and so you agree that man's free will is limited to his own sinful will, and that Gods righteous will supersedes man's sinful will, and is in fact necessary for man to have anything beyond his own will, ie salvation. That was not too hard at all.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Exactly, and so you agree that man's free will is limited to his own sinful will, and that Gods righteous will supersedes man's sinful will, and is in fact necessary for man to have anything beyond his own will, ie salvation. That was not too hard at all.

No.


Jos 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Man can just as easily choose to do what is right as he can choose to do what is wrong. Man is not totally depraved where he is only able to choose what is wrong. When God accepted Abel's sacrifice and not Cain's, Cain was angry and God said to Cain "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. ", Gen 4:7. God shows that it was within Cain's ability to choose to do well or not do well. God even tells Cain to rule over him (sin) which would make no sense if Cain were totally depraved and unable to do so, for why tell Cain to do something that would be impossible for him to do?
Jonah of his own will ended up choosing the right thing to do.

 

[Tri Unity]

I'll try, but it will ultimately be up to you to accept or deny it.

Why will it be up to us to accept or deny if no one makes their own choices, as you stated? If we will accept or deny based on what has already been determined, it will not be up to us at all.

Danus, you are caught up in a logic-trap. This was what made Calvin such a contradiction, yet he was not able to see it. Those Calvin was able to convince are likewise caught in his logic-trap; and they cannot see it either. Almost all belief systems have similar logic-traps. According to Calvin we have no choice of the matter, for everything is pre-determined. Felix is right; this is the Indian concept of fate dressed up in christian language. It also says that the poor, the victims, the raped, the murdered, the murderers... none of them had any choice. God planned for you to be raped and molested - you had no choice. God planned for you to be a rapist and murderer - you had no choice.

And some wonder why people would strongly oppose Calvinism? We had no choice!

BTW., your explanation of the purpose of this thread still says nothing. It seems that you are very confused about this subject. This is what Calvinism does to people - it poisons them. They are so delirious they don't realise they are delirious. Does a deceived person recognise he is deceived? If so, is he deceived?

 

[SpagLard]

In order for free will, or free choice, to be free, I must choose what I want.

That's not nescessarily so,.
people can choose against what they personally "want" "will" or "prefer"
You can flip it to say that whatever one ends up choosing is
what the person actually wanted, but i don't think that is correct.

Think about it; No one chooses what they don't want and calls it a free choice, by free will.

A person can be of two opinions , confused, and still choose.
A person can be uninformed of the results/effects of their choices and still choose.
A Person can commit suicide while Willing/wanting/ nothing more than to live.

When one chooses the lesser of two evils, one does not want either,
but a choice is still required,.. so one chooses against what one wants.

 

[Tri Unity]

"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." (James 1:8)

 

[SpagLard]

"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." (James 1:8)

Sure ,.. true.
but that does not take away free will,..or keep him from making choices.

 

[Tri Unity]

Sure ,.. true.
but that does not take away free will,..or keep him from making choices.

That's right! I wasn't disagreeing with you. Our choices become a two-edged sword; but we own them.

 

[Danus]

No.


Jos 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Man can just as easily choose to do what is right as he can choose to do what is wrong. Man is not totally depraved where he is only able to choose what is wrong. When God accepted Abel's sacrifice and not Cain's, Cain was angry and God said to Cain "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. ", Gen 4:7. God shows that it was within Cain's ability to choose to do well or not do well. God even tells Cain to rule over him (sin) which would make no sense if Cain were totally depraved and unable to do so, for why tell Cain to do something that would be impossible for him to do?
Jonah of his own will ended up choosing the right thing to do.

The only reason Jonah chose to disobey God was because God allowed him to. The choice Jonah made to disobey God was by Jonah's own will to disobey. It was not until God intervened that Jonah was able to make the choice God wanted him to make.

If man is not utterly sinful as the bible says, then he is somewhat righteous, which the bible clearly says he is not at all, but let's suppose man is somewhat righteous. If man is somewhat righteous then some where born with more righteousness than others, since some make the right choices and some do not, of their own volition. So, then those who do not make the right choices can't be blamed, since obviously they do not have what it takes to make the right choices. This notion would fit into your theologic. But, if it does not, there has to be something else. Some other means for man to make a right choice.

The bible says man is utterly sinful, no one does good, no not one, yet you say; that's not true some are not as sinful as others by their own power they are better than the others. You say this when you say man can choose good, and you say this when you say man is not sinful, and you say this against what the bible says of mankind, and you say that it is true.