No Pretrib Rapture

[for_his_glory]

The scripture you quoted does not say "under heaven" as you have now switched the word given to fit your need.
It says " OF HEAVEN " not "under heaven"
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
You are changing the words of scripture that do not exist.
This is what you end up doing having to do when you make things up apart from actual scripture.
My question stands .
If these non-raptured Christian are standing on earth watch His coming to them along with every eye , why would the angels be required to be gathering them from one end of heaven to the other?
These Christians occupying this vast space of heaven , FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER, are obviously not company to the eyes on earth that are beholding His coming,
Thus Requiring the angels to fetch them from far afield in vast expanse of heaven.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Additionally Jesus Christ Himself has given His Word that when He collects His church from topside earth He will personally be the first to greet them and receive them without any angel help needed.

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Please do not make bold that I did not bold in my post or this will be reported the next time you do this.

I explained what I meant by under heaven in post #438 and have never added to or taken away from scripture. What part do you not understand in Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. and 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

When Christ returns on the last day every eye will see Him come in the clouds as we are then caught up to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

 

[Randy]

All this you speak of occurs after the Anti-Christ betrays the years of peace Anti-Christ has established between the Israel and the nations who sought to destroy Israel and the Jews, and people are being dragged before to anti-Christ to either submit or die.

I am speaking to the years prior to all of that as the Anti-Christ is working His way to power with claims of peace and tranquility , and the following period where the world falls for His claims and He actually does establish peace for the Jews.
What are all of these strident outspoken Christians doing during all these years ?
Not a word of them protesting or confronting anti-christ during this period of peace is spoken of in scripture.
Why is that ?

What are all these enlightened Christians doing as the Anti-Christ works his way to the top.
I am speaking of the years of peace Anti-Christ establishes between Israel and the middle east nations that once sought to destroy Israel.
What are all these millions of Christians doing during these years of Anti-Christ's established world peace ?
During this period of "Peace" Why is there not one word of the world's Christian population confronting Anti-Christ daily at his headquarters in massive protests and media campaigns, daily pulling back the curtain on the real identity of Anti-Christ as told in the scripture ?
What are all these Christians doing standing by silent and mute like scared rabbits before the hell they know is coming breaks out ?
In full disobedience of the Lord's command to speak out against the ultimate evil personified .

Its Gods will for this antiChrist to have 42 months of reign and it will come about at the appointed time set by God. Nothing can change that. Evil is in the world right now. What are you doing about it as if you could stop it? Satan leads the whole world astray. He can only be bound by God.
I don't read of any pretrib gathering. I read of a gathering on the last day at the resurrection of us all.

 

[for_his_glory]

The word Rapture is not found in scripture as scripture calls it being caught up at the last trump, meaning the seventh trumpet of God, 1 Corinthians15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, is explained in these verses if you read them for what they say. Rev 14:6-20 is the precursor for the catching up of the saints that makes up the true body of Christ. This is separating the wheat from the tares or in other words saints from sinners as sinners being those who have taken the mark of the beast in Rev 13. Christ is sending the angels to separate the wheat from the tares to protect His own in safety from the seven vial judgments that will take place, Rev 15:1-8; 16:1-21.

After mystery Babylon is revealed and then destroyed, Rev Chapters 17, 18, heaven rejoices her destruction as the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. It is not until we read in Rev 19 of Christ second coming as we, His Bride, have prepared ourselves, those in the grave and we that are still alive, to be caught up together to the clouds and given our new glorified bodies as we are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white then meet Christ in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1Corinthians 15:51-58. We are then joined to our Groom (Jesus) for the marriage supper (union) of the Lamb and His Bride. Fine linen means we are now arrayed in Gods righteousness.

Rev Chapters 19, 20 we the saints of God then come down to earth with Him as Jesus plants His feet on the Mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, to fight the final battle as He smites the nations and now rules over them. Jesus then binds Satan for a time (I don’t believe in a literal 1000 years, but only being symbolic in numbering) as then he will be loosed for awhile to try and attack the saints of God that are encamped in Gods protection. Jesus will then cast Satan into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet that has caused a great falling away, 2Thessalonians 2:3. Then comes Gods final judgment on those who have rejected Christ and they are then cast into the lake of fire for their names were not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev Chapter 20. Heaven and earth are restored and the New Jerusalem is ushered down and we are with the Lord for eternity.

Reference:
Genesis Chapter 49; Deuteronomy 31:28-30; Jeremiah 30:18-24; Daniel 12:1-4; Matthew 24:21-31; 25:31-33; John 6:37-40; Revelation 14:11-16
Reference to symbolic numbering of 1000) - Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

The word Rapture is found nowhere in any scripture or in any concordances or Bible dictionaries. Some people have taken the transliterate word of the Greek, Harpazo, to mean Rapture, but the definition of this word is:
1. To seize, carry off by force, obtain by robbery
2. To seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3. To snatch out or away

The Latin word rapio is where the word Rapture came from as it means to be seized or snatched up. No where in scripture does it say we will be seized or snatched up as we are obtained by robbery. We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air after receiving our new glorified bodies that will be like Jesus and will evermore be with Him on the last day, John 6:40. It's no secret quiet rapture as many teach as the voice and the sound of a trumpet during the last day will be very loud and every eye will see Jesus return so it doesn't sound like we are seized or snatched up from the earth as God sends His angels out to gather the saints of God from the four corners of the earth, Rev 1:7; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Matthew 24:29-31.

 

[Consecrated Life]

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus has said that He will be the one who comes to His church to receive them from topside earth , not an angel band doing the gathering in the heavenly realm.

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Clearly these are two separate events .
The first is Jesus receiving His own up from earth at a time when no one expects it.

Mat 24:44
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

HIs first coming completely unexpected as prophesized .
His second coming with all the precursing bells & whistles has the whole world alarmed to His soon prophesized arrival in judgement.

Mar 13:24-26
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.



The second is the gathering of His own together who have been about their assigned duties in the vast expanse of heaven as He prepares to come to bring judgement to the earth after all hell has broken out on the earth and any recent believers on earth are anxiously awaiting His certain coming in judgement of the earth as prophesized with full knowledge and expectation of it .
This coming happens with all the precursing bells & whistles so that everyone is expecting His coming.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus has said that He will be the one who comes to His church to receive them from topside earth , not an angel band doing the gathering in the heavenly realm.

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Clearly these are two separate events .
The first is Jesus receiving His own up from earth at a time when no one expects it.

Mat 24:44
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

HIs first coming completely unexpected as prophesized .
His second coming with all the precursing bells & whistles has the whole world alarmed to His soon prophesized arrival in judgement.

Mar 13:24-26
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.



The second is the gathering of His own together who have been about their assigned duties in the vast expanse of heaven as He prepares to come to bring judgement to the earth after all hell has broken out on the earth and any recent believers on earth are anxiously awaiting His certain coming in judgement of the earth as prophesized with full knowledge and expectation of it .
This coming happens with all the precursing bells & whistles so that everyone is expecting His coming.

If you want to ignore scripture over what you carnally think then by all means go ahead as I am done with this.

 

[Consecrated Life]

If you want to ignore scripture over what you carnally think then by all means go ahead as I am done with this.

I'm quoting scripture .
Not only does Jesus saying HIs coming will be unexpected , but that He will come when it is least expected ?
This cannot be Jesus's warning for the Pre-trib crowd because we understand there is no time when He cannot come.
It is the post- Trib crowd says that Jesus cannot come today ,
and cannot come tomorrow and cannot come until after a laundry list of events have taken place, the anti-christ has world power, the anti-christ establishes world peace, the anti-christ forces everyone to take the mark or die , etc,etc,etc,,,,,& etc.

So tell me according to scripture which crowd is Jesus's admonition that His coming will be completely unexpected have the most application too :
The pre-trib crowd that says He can come today or anytime
Or the crowd that says He cannot come today, or tomorrow , or anytime until world power is secured & world peace has been established by anti-christ ?

Mat 24:44
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm quoting scripture .
Not only does Jesus saying HIs coming will be unexpected , but that He will come when it is least expected ?
This cannot be Jesus's warning for the Pre-trib crowd because we understand there is no time when He cannot come.
It is the post- Trib crowd says that Jesus cannot come today ,
and cannot come tomorrow and cannot come until after a laundry list of events have taken place, the anti-christ has world power, the anti-christ establishes world peace, the anti-christ forces everyone to take the mark or die , etc,etc,etc,,,,,& etc.

So tell me according to scripture which crowd is Jesus's admonition that His coming will be completely unexpected have the most application too :
The pre-trib crowd that says He can come today or anytime
Or the crowd that says He cannot come today, or tomorrow , or anytime until world power is secured & world peace has been established by anti-christ ?

Mat 24:44
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If the Church was present during the tribulation why do they go into disobedient, silent hiding, disobeying the Lord's command at this Most paramount point of History preaching the Word and confronting Anti-Chrst more fervently than ever before as the Anti-Christ maneuvers his way up to world power ?

"The Church was present during the tribulation" is another misleading, inaccurate, blanketed statement. The Lord himself has revealed that some will go into the great tribulation while others won't.

Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. (Rev. 2:22-23)

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. (Rev. 3:16)

 

[Randy]

"The Church was present during the tribulation" is another misleading, inaccurate, blanketed statement. The Lord himself has revealed that some will go into the great tribulation while others won't.

The gathering is on the last day. It is clear the beast, that is destroyed by a coming of the lord, makes war with the saints. If any escape the great tribulation it will be through the death of the body.

Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. (Rev. 2:22-23)

The elect cannot be deceived and do not worship and take the mark of the beast. The deceived do. God allows this powerful delusion into the world to deceive those who refuse to believe and repent and love to do evil so they will be condemned.

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

I believe King Josiah was made a similar promise. How was that fulfilled?

So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. (Rev. 3:16)

Thats indicative of those who do NOT have the Spirit of Christ in them. Many give lip service, but their hearts are far from God.

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40;For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day

if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself. (Christ and those in the faith are ONE) If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ in them they don't belong to Him and they are NOT in the faith regardless of what they may proclaim.

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The gathering is on the last day. It is clear the beast, that is destroyed by a coming of the lord, makes war with the saints. If any escape the great tribulation it will be through the death of the body.

Yes, that's why the dead will rise first (1 Thess. 4:16). It is written that "He" that restrains must be taken out of the way so that the Antichrist can be revealed, that's God's true church. The "gathering" is the resurrection.

The elect cannot be deceived and do not worship and take the mark of the beast. The deceived do. God allows this powerful delusion into the world to deceive those who refuse to believe and repent and love to do evil so they will be condemned.

Don't be so sure about that, hubris could be your downfall.

For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Matt. 24:24)

I believe King Josiah was made a similar promise. How was that fulfilled?

Was King Josiah exiled to Babylon?

Thats indicative of those who do NOT have the Spirit of Christ in them. Many give lip service, but their hearts are far from God.

Yeah, so? Actually this is the worst church among the seven, Lord Jesus has no good thing to say about them, only reproach. Yet even in this church, like the other six churches, there's still a faithful remnant - "He who has an ear, let him hear!"

 

[Consecrated Life]

"The Church was present during the tribulation" is another misleading, inaccurate, blanketed statement. The Lord himself has revealed that some will go into the great tribulation while others won't.

Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. (Rev. 2:22-23)

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. (Rev. 3:16)

The Lord does leave , forsake or vomit out of His mouth any of His sheep .
You seem unaware that the majority of people who call themselves 'Christians" are not Christians ?

Mat 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So who are you saying goes through the tribulation , actual Christians , or the false Christians That Jesus spits out of His mouth ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The Lord does leave , forsake or vomit out of His mouth any of His sheep .
You seem unaware that the majority of people who call themselves 'Christians" are not Christians ?

All seven churches are the Lord's churches, a bad church is still a church. If they were not Christians, God wouldn't have dictated a letter to them.

The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches. (Rev. 1:20)

So who are you saying goes through the tribulation , actual Christians , or the false Christians That Jesus spits out of His mouth ?

"Vomit out my mouth" is a reference of the Babylonian exile, lukewarm, apostate Christians will be excommunicated from their comfort dwelling as much as the Jews were banished from the holy land. Nevertheless, salvation cannot be lost, God will never break his covenant with his people.

Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God. But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the Lord.’ (Lev. 26:44-45)

 

[Consecrated Life]

All seven churches are the Lord's churches, a bad church is still a church. If they were not Christians, God wouldn't have dictated a letter to them.

"The Church was present during the tribulation" is another misleading, inaccurate, blanketed statement. The Lord himself has revealed that some will go into the great tribulation while others won't.

So EXACTLY which Christians are you saying goes thru the tribulation, and which Christians do not ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

So EXACTLY which Christians are you saying goes thru the tribulation, and which Christians do not ?

The bible is clear, Thyatira church goes through tribulation, Philadelphia church does not.

 

[Consecrated Life]

The bible is clear, Thyatira church goes through tribulation, Philadelphia church does not.

And what is God's purpose for Thyatira church to accomplish in the tribulation ?

 

[Fish153]

The bible is clear, Thyatira church goes through tribulation, Philadelphia church does not.

There is nothing in Revelation 2 that states Thyatira will go through the Tribulation. The WHOLE church will be gone before the Tribulation. The Tribulation period is the 70th week of Daniel and has to do with the Jews and the Nation of Israel.

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not ALL sleep, but we shall ALL be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE shall be changed". (1 Cor. 15:51, 52).

Please note that Paul says: "We shall not ALL sleep..." meaning we shall not ALL DIE. "but we shall ALL be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye".

Paul is clearly stating ALL---ALL---meaning EVERY BELIEVER. EVERY BELIEVER will be taken by the Lord---for we are ALL His body. Yes--- some are not faithful---and they will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ for it. But God is not leaving some saints on earth to go through Tribulation----that just is NOT Biblical.

Combine this with:
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words". (1 Thess. 4: 15-18)

There will be a rapture of the church. And that Rapture will include EVERY true believer in Jesus. The only people left behind will be those who CLAIM to be believers but are not. The Rapture will cause many of those to do a new evaluation and possibly accept the Lord. 144,000 Jews will evangelize the earth at that time and a great multitude will believe. But they are not THE CHURCH. They are Tribulation believers. Revelation even mentions them:

"And he said, “These are they who have come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7)

But the Church has not been appointed to wrath-----the Church is gone in the rapture before the Tribulation begins.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

And what is God's purpose for Thyatira church to accomplish in the tribulation ?

Consequence for commiting adultery with Jezebel.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There is nothing in Revelation 2 that states Thyatira will go through the Tribulation. The WHOLE church will be gone before the Tribulation. The Tribulation period is the 70th week of Daniel and has to do with the Jews and the Nation of Israel.

You're behaving like an NPC repeating the doctrine you've been programmed with. And you're contradicting the bible. Rev. 2:22 clearly states that those who committed adultery with Jezebel will be cast into great tribulation unless they repent.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Consequence for commiting adultery with Jezebel.

And after that they go to be with the Lord forever ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

And after that they go to be with the Lord forever ?

No, go to be with Jezebel forver.