no secret rapture. no pretrib possible. (duplicate thread)

[tacdon]

Uh-oh, rapture thread. It must be time to fess up. I was a hard core pre-trib believer until recently. I can make a very convincing case for a pre trib rapture, scriptures and all. However...I have done homework and praying about this and have recently changed my view to post trib.

When you set aside pre-conceived beliefs and study the Word for what it actually says, I believe that it makes sense for a post trib.

Want some scriptures? Ok. First off, scripture says that we wont go through Gods "wrath" and you are correct about this. But brother, wrath and tribulation are not the same things.

We are promised tribulation. It refines and purifys us.

Revelation 7:14
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb./

Out of great tribulation? Oh. An if we were raptured before the tribulation, does not the Holy Spirit go with us? How would people get saved during the tribulation if no Holy Spirit were here? As a Christian expect to face trials and tribulation in life, especially in this generation as the world grows more wicked each day. Don’t let them get you down, but rejoice when you go through them for you will come out a stronger, more mature servant of God, ready to take care of business. For God allows us to go through trials and tribulation in order to purge us, purify us, and prepare us for His service.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

2 Corinthians 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:/

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ./

Look at this one

Matthew 25:31-
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:/

Now why would the sheep and goats need to be separated if the sheep are already gone in rapture?

Along the same line of thinking...

Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn./

What's that parable about, and what harvest? The harvest of the Lord brother, His people. I have more, and am certainly not finished with my studies of this, but this seems to be becoming clear to me. The tribulation is all about the bride and making her spotless for Him. Refining by fire and tribulation such as the world has never seen before.

Where does it say the holy spirit would go with us if we are raptured?

 

[tacdon]

excellent post, think of it from a logic standpoint also, why would Jesus all believers that they would suffer persecution, except for the last generation because they're so special they get raptured while every one else has to suffer. It sounds more like an entitlement philosophy to me, that's how I know it's false

Not all have suffered much persecution. Not all christians from every generation have suffered the same, some have suffered very little. While others have suffered greatly. What we suffer in America as a christian is often pale in comparison to what people in 3rd world countries face.

 

[Edward]

Where does it say the holy spirit would go with us if we are raptured?

Going from memory here. 2 Thessalonians 2: ?? he who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way...something like that. then the rapture, believers gone, Holy Spirit gone and God sends a delusion that all will believe the lie.

Yeah, that's it. the Holy Spirit is said to be taken out of the way on earth at the rapture.
Which is also really out of context i am coming to believe but I don't have time to look it up at this exact moment, but I hope you get the idea. Perhaps a pre-trib believer can clarify for me here. I must run out for a moment and will return to this shortly.

 

[tacdon]

Going from memory here. 2 Thessalonians 2: ?? he who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way...something like that. then the rapture, believers gone, Holy Spirit gone and God sends a delusion that all will believe the lie.

Yeah, that's it. the Holy Spirit is said to be taken out of the way on earth at the rapture.
Which is also really out of context i am coming to believe but I don't have time to look it up at this exact moment, but I hope you get the idea. Perhaps a pre-trib believer can clarify for me here. I must run out for a moment and will return to this shortly.

How do we know it is the holy spirit who restrains? Maybe, its an angel that does it.

 

[Sinthesis]

How do we know it is the holy spirit who restrains? Maybe, its an angel that does it.

Exactly. It isn't the Holy Spirit who restrains. It is angelic, depending on how you define 'angel'.

 

[tacdon]

Exactly. It isn't the Holy Spirit who restrains. It is angelic, depending on how you define 'angel'.

I don't know who restrains, because the bible doesn't say who the restrainer is. My guess is either an angel or the holy spirit.

 

[Edward]

Yeah that is correct, the scripture does not really get very specific about identifying the restrainer, however that wasn't the point to identify the restrainer, but to make the point that the Holy Spirit is in residence on the earth during the time of the great trib. There is some discussion about if the Holy Spirit is or is not on the earth at that time, but it is generally held to be believed that He is not on the earth then. Some questions arise about will it be possible to be saved during the tribulation at all, but i think it will be simply because there is scripture which says that multitudes are saved during that time and I think it is a given that this would not be possible without the Holy Spirit to be drawn to God and saved. The Holy Spirit will be here, and so will the believers also because of the other scriptures speaking of separating the sheep and goats and the tares and wheat will be growing together until the harvest when the tares (condemned) will be gathered first and then the believers.

All throughout the OT when wars were won, the losing side and their king would be brought before the winning king and give homage to the victor and so forth. Personally I think now that this will be done in Jerusalem with Jesus on the throne and take place at the beginning of the millennium. This could indeed be the separation of the sheep and goats and the separating of the tares from the wheat.

I'm still learning this post trib view so any more mature or knowledgable post trib believers feel free tochime in with any details or corrections that you may see.

Blessings.

 

[n2thelight]

I don't know who restrains, because the bible doesn't say who the restrainer is. My guess is either an angel or the holy spirit.

Michael is the best fit..........

 

[Edward]

Michael is the best fit..........

Good morning on this beautiful day that the Lord hath made brothers.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just thinking. Every time in scripture I read of Michael, he is fighting, but for Israel. What we're talking about is everyone on earth. We're grafted into the vine though, so there's that. but also, this would be a drawing of the people to God type situation and not a fight per se, so perhaps the Holy is indeed the best fit.

 

[n2thelight]

Good morning on this beautiful day that the Lord hath made brothers.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just thinking. Every time in scripture I read of Michael, he is fighting, but for Israel. What we're talking about is everyone on earth. We're grafted into the vine though, so there's that. but also, this would be a drawing of the people to God type situation and not a fight per se, so perhaps the Holy is indeed the best fit.

Another subject,but one must understand who Israel is...Will just say this,they're not all Jew's,now to why I think it's Michael...

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

"And now", is Paul's reminder to them that they did talk about this when he was with them in person. Who then is this one that would "be revealed in his time?"
The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this.

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].
"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

 

[Deborah13]

Going from memory here. 2 Thessalonians 2: ?? he who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way...something like that. then the rapture, believers gone, Holy Spirit gone and God sends a delusion that all will believe the lie.

Yeah, that's it. the Holy Spirit is said to be taken out of the way on earth at the rapture.
Which is also really out of context i am coming to believe but I don't have time to look it up at this exact moment, but I hope you get the idea. Perhaps a pre-trib believer can clarify for me here. I must run out for a moment and will return to this shortly.

Paul is speaking to those at the church in Thessalonica.

2Th 2:5 Do ye not remember that, being yet with you, these things I said to you?
2Th 2:6 and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,
2Th 2:7 for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now will hinder --till he may be out of the way,
2Th 2:8 and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence,
2Th 2:9 him, whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,
2Th 2:11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
2Th 2:12 that they may be judged--all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness.

And just how does this fit in with the rapture. You see if all the believers are gone from the earth and all those left are unbelievers then we see here that all unbeliever will be under a delusion and be judged as unrighteous, then who are the survivors of the tribulation?

 

[Edward]

Another subject,but one must understand who Israel is...Will just say this,they're not all Jew's,now to why I think it's Michael...

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

"And now", is Paul's reminder to them that they did talk about this when he was with them in person. Who then is this one that would "be revealed in his time?"
The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this.

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].
"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

That could be brother. I need to chew on that for a few.

 

[Edward]

Paul is speaking to those at the church in Thessalonica.

2Th 2:5 Do ye not remember that, being yet with you, these things I said to you?
2Th 2:6 and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,
2Th 2:7 for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now will hinder --till he may be out of the way,
2Th 2:8 and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence,
2Th 2:9 him, whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,
2Th 2:11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
2Th 2:12 that they may be judged--all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness.

And just how does this fit in with the rapture. You see if all the believers are gone from the earth and all those left are unbelievers then we see here that all unbeliever will be under a delusion and be judged as unrighteous, then who are the survivors of the tribulation?

Right, that's the thing. If all the believers are gone, and perhaps even the Holy Spirit too, and all the unbelievers are under a delusion...how could anyone be saved in the tribulation? That is one of the big things that I realized in my renewed studies. I (pre-trib believers) used to say well, when John was having his prophetic vision and the saints and 24 elders were already there before the throne of God, then there must have been a rapture. But even though john had this revelation, he doesn't really give the time period of when this is that he is in Heaven and all that is going on. Presumably, it is before the seals are opened, but not really carved into stone. All throughout scripture we are admonished to endure trials and tribulation to the end, and that we are to be overcomers, There have to be people here during the trib to speak the Word of God. One place in scripture says that multitudes come out of the tribulation...

I'm still shifting gears but am pretty hard core post trib now. I still respect Chuck Missler, he just does not have ALL the answers and no one does. This is because we are a body and must have unity to have completeness. We all have a portion and together...all the answers are here for us as a body. (Why unification and brotherly love and fellowship are so important.

 

[YogiD2]

I don't believe in a rapture. imo Joseph was a prepper. And he has made a example that we should all try to follow. And we should "act as if" this rapture won't happen.
Here's a Good link.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060831113738AAtrcGw

The theory of the rapture was basically unknown and untaught to scholars until John Nelson Garby came along; he was the founder of the Plymouth Brethren Church.

 

[Eugene]

Going from memory here. 2 Thessalonians 2: ?? he who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way...something like that. then the rapture, believers gone, Holy Spirit gone and God sends a delusion that all will believe the lie.

Yeah, that's it. the Holy Spirit is said to be taken out of the way on earth at the rapture.
Which is also really out of context i am coming to believe but I don't have time to look it up at this exact moment, but I hope you get the idea. Perhaps a pre-trib believer can clarify for me here. I must run out for a moment and will return to this shortly.

Those hindering the temptation to come upon all the world (Rev 3:10) are the very ones that will be removed prior to the tribulation; not the Holy Spirit Who will be very active in anything done during that time.

 

[Edward]

Those hindering the temptation to come upon all the world (Rev 3:10) are the very ones that will be removed prior to the tribulation; not the Holy Spirit Who will be very active in anything done during that time.

Hmmm. Could you expound on that, just a bit, brother?

 

[tacdon]

What do you think of these two verses? Don't these point to a pre trib rapture?

Revelation 3:10

10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[reba]

How many guys were thrown into the furnace and how many were there?

 

[Edward]

What do you think of these two verses? Don't these point to a pre trib rapture?

Revelation 3:10

10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I used to, but if we do a word study on "keep" you from the hour of temptation, we see that the translation points more towards protection than it does a taking away...

Keep G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch./

Plus if you read the whole chapter for context you also see that it is to the church of Philidelphia (which we are not) and says that this for he that overcometh...have we?

 

[Eugene]

Hi Brother Edward, I reckon the best way to understand this is to approach what the work of the Holy Spirit is.

Of course He is the power that raised Jesus from the dead Rom 8:11, but He also is the witness of all truth to not only us of the church, but will be to any that ever hear of Christ even in the end times. John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Now there will be the two witnesses during the first three and one-half years, but it will be the Holy Spirit’s power making it effectual; God always gives the increase. If He were gone, and it was left to man alone there would be no one saved in that time including those beheaded for not receiving the mark of the beast.

So who is it that hinders our Father from exercising His judgment to fall on an unbelieving world. To me it will be Jesus’ bride and her present ongoing witness who patiently keep Jesus’ words, or as Rev 3:10 says: keeping the word of my patience. We see them appearing with Jesus prior to the temptation to come upon all the world, and just who are they? In Rev 5:9 they sing of themselves “Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

What do you think?