no secret rapture. no pretrib possible. (duplicate thread)

[Edward]

That makes sense brother. I never really thought of that before. I'm going to chew on that for awhile...

 

[Eugene]

How many guys were thrown into the furnace and how many were there?

Three thrown in and ONE like unto the Son of God were in the furnace. Of course a few (200,000,000?) that took the three to the furnace were slain by the flames that could not even leave the smell of fire on the three.

 

[Eugene]

What do you think of these two verses? Don't these point to a pre trib rapture?

Revelation 3:10

10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Hi Brother tacdon, to me you are exactly right, but I will add that all the church does not have that same condition of deliverance awaiting them. There is the majority of the church called a great multitude in Rev 7:9 said to be taken out of great tribulation in Rev 7:14 that will stand before the throne of God prior to the revealing of the man of sin in the second half of the tribulation.

 

[tacdon]

I used to, but if we do a word study on "keep" you from the hour of temptation, we see that the translation points more towards protection than it does a taking away...

Keep G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch./

Plus if you read the whole chapter for context you also see that it is to the church of Philidelphia (which we are not) and says that this for he that overcometh...have we?

If you say that "keep" really means protect, then you have to ask the question How will God protect?

Taking away is a way to protect. or it could be the protection like the passover. Now about your comment that it was only for the church of Philidelphia. The bible doesn't work that way, the verses often apply to many more people than just what it was addressed to.

You only replied to one verse you didn't reply to the other.

 

[Edward]

If you say that "keep" really means protect, then you have to ask the question How will God protect?

Taking away is a way to protect. or it could be the protection like the passover. Now about your comment that it was only for the church of Philidelphia. The bible doesn't work that way, the verses often apply to many more people than just what it was addressed to.

You only replied to one verse you didn't reply to the other.

Right good question. Taking away is one way to protect. How will God protect us when the time comes? However He wants to. How many different scriptures would you like for examples of how He protected His people? Some, he sent Angels to protect (one Angel slew 185,000 syrians in one night for them), in another he simply empowered the people to be able to stand (like David & Goliath), others he sent multitudes of angels and chariots into the war with them (with Elijah), others he translated to other locations or even to heaven (Enoch, Peter in Acts)...thewre's more I'm sure but this is just off of the top of my head. And if you think these things will not be happening in the great trib, I would remind you that this will be a time of trouble like the world has never seen before. if the Lord would protect His people in lesser situations then He certainly will in these times also.

Good point about Philadelphia. That was essentially my point. You are exactly right, we can't take one verse and apply it it to us, while ignoring the rest. Either it all applys to us, or none of it does, lol. It would merely be a history book if it did not ALL apply to us. All through scripture we are told that we will suffer, and have many trials and temptations. That we are to be overcomers and endure until the end. We're not better than all the others who have lived to escape these trials and temptations that are coming. He wants us to look to Him for help, protection, and sustenance. These trials will be a growth for us and teach us much. Purify us by fire and make us a spotless bride for Him to come for.

 

[tacdon]

Right good question. Taking away is one way to protect. How will God protect us when the time comes? However He wants to. How many different scriptures would you like for examples of how He protected His people? Some, he sent Angels to protect (one Angel slew 185,000 syrians in one night for them), in another he simply empowered the people to be able to stand (like David & Goliath), others he sent multitudes of angels and chariots into the war with them (with Elijah), others he translated to other locations or even to heaven (Enoch, Peter in Acts)...thewre's more I'm sure but this is just off of the top of my head. And if you think these things will not be happening in the great trib, I would remind you that this will be a time of trouble like the world has never seen before. if the Lord would protect His people in lesser situations then He certainly will in these times also.

Good point about Philadelphia. That was essentially my point. You are exactly right, we can't take one verse and apply it it to us, while ignoring the rest. Either it all applys to us, or none of it does, lol. It would merely be a history book if it did not ALL apply to us. All through scripture we are told that we will suffer, and have many trials and temptations. That we are to be overcomers and endure until the end. We're not better than all the others who have lived to escape these trials and temptations that are coming. He wants us to look to Him for help, protection, and sustenance. These trials will be a growth for us and teach us much. Purify us by fire and make us a spotless bride for Him to come for.

I hope the pretrib rapture is right, I'd rather it be that way. Personally, after reviewing different scriptures I'm not sure, because some scriptures can be used to support either view.

I wonder how long before the tribulation period starts? Maybe, it will be soon like in a few years or maybe it'll be 1,000 years from now.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

I hope the pretrib rapture is right, I'd rather it be that way. Personally, after reviewing different scriptures I'm not sure, because some scriptures can be used to support either view.

I wonder how long before the tribulation period starts? Maybe, it will be soon like in a few years or maybe it'll be 1,000 years from now.

(oops - the trib period will start soon if it is not already. there won't be any secret whisking away of believers though - Scripture says clearly if you are a believer God will give you the grace at the time as it is needed to endure; not to be raptured. Everyone who wants to live in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution(looking up ref))

if it is as you expect, then next year is the best expected date for Jews and gentiles worldwide, based on 'Scripture' and current events and astrological signs. things like the current computer systems in use indicate it will be soon in any case.

however, corrie ten boom pointed out in 1960 in the untied states that 80% to 95% of believers worldwide were ALREADY IN IT. (suffering very severe tribulation/persecution for their faith)

2 Timothy 3:12 (CJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
12 And indeed, all who want to live a godly life united with the Messiah Yeshua will be persecuted,

2 Timothy 3:12 (AMP) | In Context | Whole Chapter
12 Indeed all who delight in piety and are determined to live a devoted and godly life in Christ Jesus will meet with persecution [will be made to suffer because of their religious stand].

 

[tacdon]

(oops - the trib period will start soon if it is not already. there won't be any secret whisking away of believers though - Scripture says clearly if you are a believer God will give you the grace at the time as it is needed to endure; not to be raptured. Everyone who wants to live in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution(looking up ref))

if it is as you expect, then next year is the best expected date for Jews and gentiles worldwide, based on 'Scripture' and current events and astrological signs. things like the current computer systems in use indicate it will be soon in any case.

however, corrie ten boom pointed out in 1960 in the untied states that 80% to 95% of believers worldwide were ALREADY IN IT. (suffering very severe tribulation/persecution for their faith)

2 Timothy 3:12 (CJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
12 And indeed, all who want to live a godly life united with the Messiah Yeshua will be persecuted,

2 Timothy 3:12 (AMP) | In Context | Whole Chapter
12 Indeed all who delight in piety and are determined to live a devoted and godly life in Christ Jesus will meet with persecution [will be made to suffer because of their religious stand].

It seems like there are varying degrees of persecution, many Christians in 3rd world countries have been killed, mutilated or raped for their faith. It seems like here in America that we get minor persecution, such as being yelled at or argued with.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

It seems like there are varying degrees of persecution, many Christians in 3rd world countries have been killed, mutilated or raped for their faith. It seems like here in America that we get minor persecution, such as being yelled at or argued with.

yes, it seems that way.

but some who took a strong stand the last 30 years(probably before that also) have been jailed, beaten, houses burned, car tires slashed and possibly worse(not 'verified', but likely some have died for their faith stance and for exposing the wickedness in the u.s.a.).

(and forgot almost - anyone who stands up to tell the truth is silenced effectively ad lib in the usa by lawsuits and other legal action, besides the physical means used --- some have become quiet as a result, or may now be in jail, or left the country)

 

[YogiD2]

The theory of the rapture was basically unknown and untaught to scholars until John Nelson Garby came along; he was the founder of the Plymouth Brethren Church.

Please read through this link. Very interesting information IMO. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...1113738AAtrcGw

 

[JLB]

Hi Brother tacdon, to me you are exactly right, but I will add that all the church does not have that same condition of deliverance awaiting them. There is the majority of the church called a great multitude in Rev 7:9 said to be taken out of great tribulation in Rev 7:14 that will stand before the throne of God prior to the revealing of the man of sin in the second half of the tribulation.

14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14

These have come out of the great tribulation... - they were in the great tribulation and have come out. The great tribulation would have started and these have come out.

There is Daniel's 70th week which is 7 years long.

There is the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation which is the later half of the 70 th week.

These that have come out of the tribulation have been martyred, which is how they have come out before Jesus returns.

and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb... is a reference to dying for the Lamb.


The great tribulation is not 7 years long.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Right good question. Taking away is one way to protect. How will God protect us when the time comes? However He wants to. How many different scriptures would you like for examples of how He protected His people? Some, he sent Angels to protect (one Angel slew 185,000 syrians in one night for them), in another he simply empowered the people to be able to stand (like David & Goliath), others he sent multitudes of angels and chariots into the war with them (with Elijah), others he translated to other locations or even to heaven (Enoch, Peter in Acts)...thewre's more I'm sure but this is just off of the top of my head. And if you think these things will not be happening in the great trib, I would remind you that this will be a time of trouble like the world has never seen before. if the Lord would protect His people in lesser situations then He certainly will in these times also.

Good point about Philadelphia. That was essentially my point. You are exactly right, we can't take one verse and apply it it to us, while ignoring the rest. Either it all applys to us, or none of it does, lol. It would merely be a history book if it did not ALL apply to us. All through scripture we are told that we will suffer, and have many trials and temptations. That we are to be overcomers and endure until the end. We're not better than all the others who have lived to escape these trials and temptations that are coming. He wants us to look to Him for help, protection, and sustenance. These trials will be a growth for us and teach us much. Purify us by fire and make us a spotless bride for Him to come for.

He will protect His people today, the same exact way He protected the Children of Israel when they were carried out of Egypt on two wings of a great eagle, which is a reference to the Holy Spirit and the cloud by day and the fire by night surrounding God's people.

But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. Revelation 12:14


JLB

 

[Eugene]

14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14

These have come out of the great tribulation... - they were in the great tribulation and have come out. The great tribulation would have started and these have come out.

There is Daniel's 70th week which is 7 years long.

There is the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation which is the later half of the 70 th week.

These that have come out of the tribulation have been martyred, which is how they have come out before Jesus returns.

and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb... is a reference to dying for the Lamb.


The great tribulation is not 7 years long.


JLB

Hi Brother JLB, I agree with parts of your post with the exception of the Daniel's seventieth week which I believe was the seven years where the saints had all things in common; all of Daniel's seventy weeks were blessings.

The first 3 1/2 years of tribulation was called the "Hour of temptation" which the great multitude not ready when the Lord came at first where we see the twenty-four elders & four living ones caught up. They are one cohort made up of those first rank believers that died before Jesus' coming, and the four beasts as it were that were alive at His coming. They are all round about and in the midst of Jesus' throne, they have crowns and are shown as the Philadelphia & Smyrna churches; the one faithfully keeping the word of God, and the other faithful unto death.

 

[JLB]

Hi Brother JLB, I agree with parts of your post with the exception of the Daniel's seventieth week which I believe was the seven years where the saints had all things in common; all of Daniel's seventy weeks were blessings.

The first 3 1/2 years of tribulation was called the "Hour of temptation" which the great multitude not ready when the Lord came at first where we see the twenty-four elders & four living ones caught up. They are one cohort made up of those first rank believers that died before Jesus' coming, and the four
beasts as it were that were alive at His coming. They are all round about and in the midst of Jesus' throne, they have crowns and are shown as the Philadelphia & Smyrna churches; the one faithfully keeping the word of God, and the other faithful unto death.

I think we agree that the ones who have come out of the great tribulation are in heaven because they have died.

Not because they have been Raptured.


JLB

 

[Edward]

I hope the pretrib rapture is right, I'd rather it be that way. Personally, after reviewing different scriptures I'm not sure, because some scriptures can be used to support either view.

I wonder how long before the tribulation period starts? Maybe, it will be soon like in a few years or maybe it'll be 1,000 years from now.

Me too brother, me too. But on the other hand, I have to give way what I want to believe to the truth of what the scripture says. Plus the thought of...facing down a giant so to speak, and protected by the almighty GOD...makes me feel totally non-afraid and perhaps even looking forward to the experience. I say this of course, while not facing a giant, lol! But still, Lord be with me.

Oh, the trib. i don't think it has started yet. it doesn't start until the lamb has the book. i was reading it the other day and it didn't seem as if if has begun, but I forget exactly why now...

 

[Edward]

(oops - the trib period will start soon if it is not already. there won't be any secret whisking away of believers though - Scripture says clearly if you are a believer God will give you the grace at the time as it is needed to endure; not to be raptured. Everyone who wants to live in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution(looking up ref))

if it is as you expect, then next year is the best expected date for Jews and gentiles worldwide, based on 'Scripture' and current events and astrological signs. things like the current computer systems in use indicate it will be soon in any case.

however, corrie ten boom pointed out in 1960 in the untied states that 80% to 95% of believers worldwide were ALREADY IN IT. (suffering very severe tribulation/persecution for their faith)

2 Timothy 3:12 (CJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
12 And indeed, all who want to live a godly life united with the Messiah Yeshua will be persecuted,

2 Timothy 3:12 (AMP) | In Context | Whole Chapter
12 Indeed all who delight in piety and are determined to live a devoted and godly life in Christ Jesus will meet with persecution [will be made to suffer because of their religious stand].

Corrie Ten Boom? I just downloaded a movie about her and haven't had a chance to watch it yet. I had never heard of her before and read about this Christian movie, so downloaded it...and now you mention her. Cool.

 

[JLB]

Hi Brother Edward, I reckon the best way to understand this is to approach what the work of the Holy Spirit is.

Of course He is the power that raised Jesus from the dead Rom 8:11, but He also is the witness of all truth to not only us of the church, but will be to any that ever hear of Christ even in the end times. John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Now there will be the two witnesses during the first three and one-half years, but it will be the Holy Spirit’s power making it effectual; God always gives the increase. If He were gone, and it was left to man alone there would be no one saved in that time including those beheaded for not receiving the mark of the beast.

So who is it that hinders our Father from exercising His judgment to fall on an unbelieving world. To me it will be Jesus’ bride and her present ongoing witness who patiently keep Jesus’ words, or as Rev 3:10 says: keeping the word of my patience. We see them appearing with Jesus prior to the temptation to come upon all the world, and just who are they? In Rev 5:9 they sing of themselves “Thou wast slain,
and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

What do you think?

Remember in that same book of revelation Chapter 3 where The Lord promises to "keep us from" the hour of trial.

To "keep" is a military term to guard or protect. This word would not be used if the one who was kept was in heaven.

There would be no need for protection in heaven.


JLB

 

[Edward]

Remember in that same book of revelation Chapter 3 where The Lord promises to "keep us from" the hour of trial.

To "keep" is a military term to guard or protect. This word would not be used if the one who was kept was in heaven.

There would be no need for protection in heaven.


JLB

Right, brother! i read that. It's laid out in Strongs like that also.

Keep G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch./

He's going to keep an eye on us! And we...keep our eye on Him!

Not only, that, but look at this!:

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.(KJV)

"Narrow" (is the way)

G2346
θλίβω
thlibō
thlee'-bo
Akin to the base of G5147; to crowd (literally or figuratively): - afflict, narrow, throng, suffer tribulation, trouble./

 

[Kathi]

Remember in that same book of revelation Chapter 3 where The Lord promises to "keep us from" the hour of trial.

To "keep" is a military term to guard or protect. This word would not be used if the one who was kept was in heaven.

There would be no need for protection in heaven.


JLB

Right so those words are telling us the Jesus will come and get the Church before the tribulation and before the "hour of trial"

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Right so those words are telling us the Jesus will come and get the Church before the tribulation and before the "hour of trial"

no. as he stated, if someone was already gone, they wouldn't need to be 'kept' or 'protected'.

Jesus told His follower to expect persecution. to "embrace suffering" , not to run from it; so it would be out of line for Him to pull them out.