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Not sure if I can call myself "Christian" anymore.

Quath said:
It says a lot of things about salvation. From Christian Salvation?:

In fact, depending on which denomination of Christianity one subscribes to, any combination of the following bible verses can be used to justify how one is saved:

By Hearing the Gospel & Belief in God: John 5:24: "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life."

By Baptism: John 3:5: "Jesus answered, 'I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.'"

By Grace & Faith, not Works: Ephesians 2:8,9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith ... not of works."

By Faith & Works: James 2:17: "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

By Keeping the Law: Matthew 19:17: "... if thou wilt enter unto life, keep the commandments."

By Belief in Christ: John 3:16: "... whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

By Belief and Baptism: Mark 16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

By Words: Matthew 12:37: "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

By Calling on the Lord: Acts 2:21: "whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Not Works but by Grace & Baptism: Titus 3:5: "Not by works ... but according to his mercy ... by the washing of regeneration." (Note: some denominations will say the washing refers to Christ's blood and sacrifice.)

According to Proverbs 16:4: God made the "wicked" for "the day of evil" (i.e. judgment & damnation). Of course, this makes no sense in light of passages that confirm or suggest that Jesus died for a small number of the elect; or that suggest all will be saved: John 1:29, 4:42, 1 Corinthians 15:29, Hebrews 2:9, 1 John 4:14.

Salvation Available to the Chosen Few: Matthew 7:14, 22:14, Luke 12:32, 13:24, John 6:37,65,15:16,19, Romans 8:29, 9:11-23, Ephesians 1:4.

Salvation Available to Those Who Desire it: Matthew 7:7-8, 11:28, John 3:16, 5:40, 7:37, Acts 2:21, Revelations 3:20.

So I don't think salvation is as clear cut as you make it out to be.
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Kindly post your source(s).

Copyright regs, you know...

I assume it was one of these:

Secular Web Kiosk and Bookstore
http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=192

Christian Salvation? by B. Steven Matthies [Archive I] - IIDB
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/archive/index.php/t-72557.html



:wink:
 
Orion,

So sorry to hear you are going through so much doubt and turmoil.

I always find this chapter uplifting in times of trial.

Philippians 4

1Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.

2I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.

3And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

4Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.

5Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

6Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

7And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

8Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

9Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

10But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.

11Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

12I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

13I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

14Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.

15Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.

16For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.

17Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.

18But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

19But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

20Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

21Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.

22All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.

23The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

KJV
 
aLoneVoice said:
Not that I am defending what Quath wrote - however, Quath did provide the source of the information.

It is right in the begining of the post...
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Oops. Didn't notice an underlying link there. :oops: Sorry, Quath.
 
christian_soldier said:
Oops. Didn't notice an underlying link there. :oops: Sorry, Quath.
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Thats ok' Quath is a very forgiving pastor.
churchsign-2.jpg
 
Quath point is well take, though. Even saw a YouTube video that pointed out all the different ways that a person can be saved. It was taken directly from the words of Jesus, and at times there does seem to be contradictions to them. So true, it's not a black and white thing and even open to interpretation and analogous wordings.

christian_soldier, I like those verses. That particular chapter has a lot of great thoughts in it. I should be content in the area I'm at and just keep up the search in that which I've learned. And think on that which is given in verse 8. Perhaps things will fall in place for me in all areas of my life and I'll have quite a story to tell. :)
 
.


Proverbs 1:29
For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Fear... (reverence toward) .


If you have the patience, which I hope you choose to have, please take the time to click on the link and read this commentary by Matthew Henry. http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=pr&chapter=1&verse=29#Pr1_29. There are tid-bits in it that I hope would help you eliminate doubt and confusion.


Furthermore, Orion,
We are given weapons against the whiles of the evil one who comes to confuse and place doubt in our hearts. Now is the time to put on the whole armour of God so as to stand against the whiles of the devil. Doubt and confusion are tools being used against you. If you don't make a determined choice to stand firm against that which is out to hinder and cut off the holy spirit from you, there will be defeat.

You must stand firm on the 'HOLY' TRUTH in the Word of the Holy Spirit of God. The bible IS the inspired Word of the Holy Spirit. The devil is out to attack you from believing the HOLY Word by placing doubt and confusion into your mind. If you hold onto doubt and confusion over the validity of the HOLY WORD then whose gaining ground in your minds eye? The Holy Spirit, or the unholy spirit?
Jesus himself said that whatever you believe, you will have it. If you don't choose to believe that the Lord is with you, then that's what you'll have... a doubt about His presence in your life. Be careful of doubt and confusing thoughts toward the validity of anything in regards to God's "Holy" Truth, they can be used by the spirit of Satan as a weapon against the Holy Spirit IN you.
If the Lord said he will never leave you nor forsake you (Hebrews 13:5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." 6 So we may boldly say: "The LORD is my helper; I will not fear. What can man do to me?") then believe it, even if it doesn't "feel" like it. That scripture is relevant for all things in your life. The devil is out to attack your "feelings". The Holy Spirit is not a feeling, a part of the Holy Spirit is God's Truth that stands firm, no matter what "feelings" you are having in the physical body.

What is "holy" to the devil? doubt and confusion against anything of the Holy Spirit of God. If God says he is with you, then do not doubt it, even if you think you can't feel His presence. He IS with you and IS working through the Holy Word to work in and through your life. The spirit is alive in words, be it holy or unholy. If you do not reject the unholy ponderings, the confusions over what to believe or not, is satan playing mind games with you. Trust in God, trust in the HOLY WORD of God. God does not lie! Satan comes to confuse the truth of God to cause you to doubt the truth of the inspired word of God as is given for us in the Bible. Why would you doubt that God would give us a guide book based on the inspiration given by the Holy Spirit? Is the secular carnal mind the only one permitted to write down thoughts that can or cannot be trusted? The Holy Spirit is the determining factor of truth, not the secular or the unholy spirit. Why do you allow Satan to bring confusion and doubt to you on a platter for you to feast on?

You need not doubt when the devil comes to throw the darts of doubt and confusion at you. There IS an "action" that must be taken by you. It's a decision to hold fast to the Truth taught to you through the word of God through Holy Spirit as given to the apostles and the prophets. If you don't believe they are inspired by the Holy Spirit, then the devil is attacking your choice to believe. Use the WHOLE armour of God to stand against the whiles of the devil in the wrestle!

Ephesians 6:11-20
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.



.
When I don't know what to do in a given situation, I pray....


In Your Hands, Oh Lord,
In Your Hands.

In His Due time.... Not mine.


.
 
Relic, I really appreciate the time it took to type all that. Really! However, a good chunk of my confusion is directly from the bible, not external from it. Also, I don't believe that I can state that "the bible is the infallible word of God". I'm sorry if that offends anyone here, but I don't see the entire book as all from God or the Holy Spirit. There may be some parts of it that were inspiring to some of the writers and they made it into Canon. But I don't think the whole Canon was. And no one on this planet can say it all in fact was. It is a belief. So I don't put my hope/trust/even faith in a book, but in God.

And even though I don't see/feel/hear/taste/smell anything from God, I will continue to believe. I've made up my mind about that. Yet, EVEN SO, as for the Bible, I will have to rely on the Holy Spirit speaking in me as to whether what I read in the Bible is from "Him" (I don't like placing human absolutes on any of the 'Godhead', hence the reason for the quotes). I'll trust that the Holy Spirit will bring out where there IS truth and not rely on what Christian doctrine wants me to believe.
 
Orion said:
And even though I don't see/feel/hear/taste/smell anything from God,...
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As per a previous post of mine, I think it is a mistake to even expect such things. Although I can understand why people might think otherwise, I believe that the Scriptures do not really promise any of the "experiential" stuff. So, for myself, I do not take the absence of these felt experiences as indicative of a "problem".
 
The whole Bible is hard to accept indeed. When I first became a Christian I had the same feelings that you do Orion. Then I thought about all the men that God said would have to be circumcised in the foreskin as a covant between man and God in the OT, and if one was to marry a Jewish woman from another tribe they also had to be circumcised. It must have been hard on them as well to accept this God or His Word or His ways. My point Orion is this. We can not (no one) can accept part of the Word of God because it feels right to him/her or that it's inspiring. You must accept the entire Bible for being what it say's it is - the Word of God - or don't accept it at all. Jesus does not want a luke warm Church and by not accepting His entire Word makes one a luke warm Christian. I'll keep you in my prayers and hope that the Holy Spirit will comfort you with the Father's loving book - The Bible -
 
That seems so absolute that it doesn't sound right to me. If I feel in my spirit that something is wrong, even in the bible, then how am I to know if it is me, or actually IS the Holy Spirit? I see a good amount of the Old Testament as the writings about what that culture believed and did in order to "please God". But, I don't think, just because they made it into Canon, that it was anything other than their cultural morays and rules, and them claiming that God told them to do such things. That includes all the parts of the Old Testament that we choose to "overlook" today.

But this "you MUST accept the entire Bible or none at all" thing seems more like a cult. I mean no disrespect, but not believing the entire Bible is inspired doesn't equate to someone being "lukewarm". After all, it WAS actually penned by man.
 
But this "you MUST accept the entire Bible or none at all" thing seems more like a cult. I mean no disrespect, but not believing the entire Bible is inspired doesn't equate to someone being "lukewarm". After all, it WAS actually penned by man.
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Okay Orion, I must quote a few Scriptures for you. Because the WORD is Jesus Christ in the Flesh, and if you do not accept the Word then you don't accept Christ..

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So are you calling Jesus a cult? Because in fact Jesus is the Word of God (proven by Scripture), and if you do not accept the Word of God again then you don't accept Jesus. You can not pick and choose what Scripture you want to follow and the Scripture you don't, that is a "cult" and you will be creating your own god as the Pagans do.

I also "mean no disrespect"
 
Definitely no disrespect! :)

I don't see Jesus in the Old Testament at all, actually. There may very well have been a lot of God speaking to the writers of the Old Testament, which inspired them to write what they did, but I don't see ALL of what we have as a Canon, the Bible, as being all from God. There are many interesting stories that I see as cultural that were most likely spoken throughout the Hebrew's Old Testament years. But because they were placed in a book doesn't make them "the word of God", . . . at least as I see it. Again, there are many things in the Old Testament that are worthy of question.

I'm not saying that a profit, during that time, didn't get some pretty powerful inspiration about the future Messiah and decided to write it down, but even if that book of the Bible resides next to another one doesn't necessarily make the other one as inspired. Again, all the words were written down by men, . . . decided upon by men as to what was "worthy of Canon", and here we sit today with a few verses and insist that it speaks about every word that a counsel of men decided upon in the 3rd or 4th century. :-?

Again, don't get me wrong. If there is something that can't be disputed, by all means I'll agree that it is a strong case for direct Holy Spirit inspiration. I just can't say that about all of it. Now, here's another similar point. I'm sure there were some great men who DID write some very great points that we can take for today, yet didn't necessarily get it directly from God. After all, God did give us a mind that is able to contemplate God, and decide to write their thoughts down. Just a thought.
 
Thank you for responding Orion and for speaking with a well developed mellow manner. Thanks buddy. You said that you don't see Jesus in the OT? Let me ask you a question Orion, do you believe that Jesus is God? It's actually a valid and important question to understand my prospective on this matter and on your thread and why I hold my stand on this. I say that Jesus is God, because the Word was with God and the Word was God as I quoted in Scripture above. I see Jesus all over the pages of the OT. As you said there are many things in the OT that are worth questioning? I agree, yet let's talk through them and not loose faith because of our skepticism and our personal bias. So do you beleive Jesus is God Orion?
 
FYI, I'll be leaving the computer after this post, so I won't be able to continue until tomorrow.

I believe that Jesus is a member of the "Godhead". However, I believe them to be distinct beings and not just another aspect of the ONE God. I think we have read too much into the "one God" thing. I tend to see it as like a husband and wife becoming one. "And the Word was God" can simply mean that Jesus has been of the "Godhead" from the beginning.

As for the questionable things, much of it has to do with the various killings of entire people groups, including the babies. There are some of the Levitical laws that are strictly followed today, yet others are not. And that is because they would never be tolerated in today's society, and to be honest, neither with any of today's even most conservative Christians.

To me, much of this just causes me to consider that the Hebrew people had these tribal laws that they kept to keep their people in line. Many of them are a stark contrast from Jesus who told us to "Love our enemies, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, . . .". Many of Jesus's parables tend to show what I feel is the true aspect of God.

And now, it's time for me to go. :)

Oh, and you're welcome for the mellow manner. I've gone through a lot, so it takes a lot to get me upset nowadays. :roll:
 
Orion said:
FYI, I'll be leaving the computer after this post, so I won't be able to continue until tomorrow.

I believe that Jesus is a member of the "Godhead". However, I believe them to be distinct beings and not just another aspect of the ONE God. I think we have read too much into the "one God" thing. I tend to see it as like a husband and wife becoming one. "And the Word was God" can simply mean that Jesus has been of the "Godhead" from the beginning.

Orion, this could be apart of the problem on why you don't see Jesus anywhere in the OT? Because you don't believe that Jesus is God, but apart of the God head. So in your belief is their three God's? Father, Son and Holy Spirit? I know of only One God!

As for the questionable things, much of it has to do with the various killings of entire people groups, including the babies. There are some of the Levitical laws that are strictly followed today, yet others are not. And that is because they would never be tolerated in today's society, and to be honest, neither with any of today's even most conservative Christians.

Orion I understand, because I once felt the same way. But what I was doing when I felt that same way. I was looking just at the assassinations and the slaughterings and not studing why God allowed it to happen. I was picking apart the Bible with out giving credit to God for why He allowed such barbaric atrocity. Orion can you say at some level that you do the same? Pick apart the Bible?

To me, much of this just causes me to consider that the Hebrew people had these tribal laws that they kept to keep their people in line. Many of them are a stark contrast from Jesus who told us to "Love our enemies, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, . . .". Many of Jesus's parables tend to show what I feel is the true aspect of God.

Orion, the OT was to prepare the nation of Israel for the arrival of their Savior. Until that time yes you are correct God needed laws to keep man in line, much like the laws we have today. If someone is caught drinking and driving, they are going to jail. God's laws were given so people would live a holy life until Christ came.

And now, it's time for me to go. :)

Oh, and you're welcome for the mellow manner. I've gone through a lot, so it takes a lot to get me upset nowadays. :roll:
Click to expand...

Thanks again

Atonement response in red
 
jgredline said:
Orion
Sounds like u bought into the of modalism
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I had to look that up:

Modalism
From Theopedia
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Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the heretical belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes. This is in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation, Jesus was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God never exists as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time, he can only manifest himself as one person at any specific time. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity.

Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, Tertullian Against Praxeas 1, in Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 3). Also known as Sabellianism, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262).

Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God (i.e., who God is). "Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus... modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:db ... =firefox-a
 
ChristianSoldier presented this definition in regards to Modalism: said:
... he can only manifest himself as one person at any specific time.
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How does "modalism" account for the omnicient, omnipresent, and omnipotent atributes which are present in God if He can only manifest in one person at any specific time? :roll: My God is NOT limited in His abilites. Thanks for presenting a definition of Modalism. I see it, as do you, as being a rediculous thing to believe in.

How can God/Holy Spirit/ through Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus be in all of us(that is, those who are called according to His purpose) if He can only be in one person at any specific time? :-?




Orion said:
I believe that Jesus is a member of the "Godhead". However, I believe them to be distinct beings and not just another aspect of the ONE God. I think we have read too much into the "one God" thing. I tend to see it as like a husband and wife becoming one. "And the Word was God" can simply mean that Jesus has been of the "Godhead" from the beginning.
Click to expand...

So then, what say you of the words as stated in these verses?


John 17:11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one].




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