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Obey God or never enter Heaven!

That's one of the dangers of proof texting.

Yea, when some use scipture is "Ok" as long as it goes along with the nonsense some of you are trying to sell to others!

But when someone catches you at your "false doctrine" just call it "proof texting":toofunny

Yea! the text always proves your false doctrine is false!

2Co 4:2

But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
2Co 4:3

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Co 4:5

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; :thumbsup
 
None of those scriptures make any point against the "righteousness" of faith, for the just shall live by faith! that which is not of faith is sin. Only in faith can one walk in the Spirit. the "flesh" are those who seek to justify themselves "by works" apart from faith and walking in the Spirit! which seems to descibe some of you on this thread!:wave
Excuse me? You misrepresent me and then do not answer the questions!

Please answer the questions (why is this so hard for people to do?):

What do you think Mr. McGee would say that Paul is saying here:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

...or this;

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Again, please do not tell me about the "broader picture". I am interested in these very particular statements. Paul wrote them, and presumably is meaning to tell us something by them.

What do you think that is? They certainy seem to says that "good works" is the criterion for eternal life. How these statements be read otherwise, without fundamentlally rewriting them?
 
That has nothing to do with our first discussion. I would change the subject too if I were you! You might want to find someone else to try and bully around with your unbiblical and carnal views on scripture, I know what I believe and In whom I believe.

Php 3:9

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: :biglol
Your post has no content, other than dismissive ridicule.

Explain why I am wrong in the following, and then we'll talk:

For Paul, what God has done with and to the nation of Israel is not a "typological" example of what is going on with the rest of the world. If you believe that, I suggest you have missed one of the central pillars of Paul's entire theology of God's covenant faithfulness - that the Jews have a played a very specific, unique in God's overall redemptive plan.


True, I have not made the actual case to support the assertion I make above. But your response is entirely inappropriate.
 
Yea, when some use scipture is "Ok" as long as it goes along with the nonsense some of you are trying to sell to others!

But when someone catches you at your "false doctrine" just call it "proof texting":toofunny
You know its almost as if you (and others) have been trained to do the following when your views are challenged:

1. Ignore the substance of the challenge;
2. Throw in some preach-y high-handed, dismissive, rhetoric.
 
I suspect this will elicit mere bluster, but being always at least somewhat hopeful here goes:

Thesis: In Romans 10 Paul is not chiding the Jew for trying to do good works (and thereby attain salvation), he is chiding the Jew for pursuing the belief that salvation is limited to Jews.

Supporting Points:

1. We have other texts, Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8:13 to name just two, that clearly connect the receipt of eternal life with the 'good works' our lives manifest:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

2. We have other texts that show that Paul is interested in repudiating the believe that salvation is limited to Jews:

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works [s]of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

3. We can coherently integrate statements about "justification by faith alone" and "awarding eternal life at the end based on good works" if, repeat if, we adopt this overall model: When a person places faith in Jesus in the present, they are given the Spirit; The Spirit then transforms that person; That person therefore produces good works; Those good works are then the basis for awarding of eternal life in the future.

Now this is an incomplete argument, but at least its a Biblically-grounded argument.
 
You know its almost as if you (and others) have been trained to do the following when your views are challenged:

1. Ignore the substance of the challenge;
2. Throw in some preach-y high-handed, dismissive, rhetoric.
What substance? God is telling the "jew" not to seek to have their own rightoeusness, by law. But it does not apply to we gentile believers?

Thats your challenge? " Its not written for us"?

Rom 10:3



For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4



For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:11



For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:12



For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for

Who are these scriptures for? muslims?:eeeekkk





 
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Yea, when some use scipture is "Ok" as long as it goes along with the nonsense some of you are trying to sell to others!

But when someone catches you at your "false doctrine" just call it "proof texting":toofunny

Yea! the text always proves your false doctrine is false!

2Co 4:2

But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
2Co 4:3

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Co 4:5

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; :thumbsup

It's not my doctrine that's false. That's shown by the fact that I post Scripture in context. The fact that all you've posted are oneliners out ocontext shows that Scripture doesn't teach what you're claiming.
 
It's not my doctrine that's false. That's shown by the fact that I post Scripture in context. The fact that all you've posted are oneliners out ocontext shows that Scripture doesn't teach what you're claiming.

Well you have your opinion, I have the Living Word of God!:yes



Mat 24:35

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. :biglol
 
Good morning Vietnammmmm,

Here is an example of a person who understands justification. Placed in his own words that can only be done by a person who has studied their Bible.

[FONT=&quot]Now, allow me to explain the way whereby God justifies a sinner. I am about to suppose an impossible case. A prisoner has been tried, and condemned to death. He is a guilty man; he cannot be justified, because he is guilty. But now, suppose for a moment that such a thing as this could happen—that some second party could be introduced, who could take all that man's guilt upon himself, who could change places with that man, and by some mysterious process, which of course is impossible with men, become that man; or take that man's character upon himself; he, the righteous man, putting the rebel in his place, and making the rebel a righteous man. We cannot do that in our courts. If I were to go before a judge, and he should agree that I should be committed for a year's imprisonment, instead of some wretch who was condemned yesterday to a year's imprisonment, I could not take his guilt. I might take his punishment, but not his guilt. Now, what flesh and blood cannot do, that Jesus Christ by his redemption did. Here I stand, the sinner. I mention myself as the representative of you all. I am condemned to die. God says, "I will condemn that man; I must, I will—I will punish him." Christ comes in, puts me aside, and stands himself in my stead. When the plea is demanded, Christ says, "Guilty;" takes my guilt to be his own guilt. When the punishment is to be executed, forth comes Christ. "Punish me," he says; "I have put my righteousness on that man, and I have taken that man's sins on me. Father, punish me, and consider that man to have been me. Let him reign in heaven; let me suffer misery. Let me endure his curse, and let him receive my blessing." This marvellous doctrine of the changing of places of Christ with poor sinners, is a doctrine of revelation, for it never could have been conceived by nature. Let me, lest I should have made a mistake, explain myself again. The way whereby God saves a sinner is not, as some say, by passing over the penalty. No; the penalty has been all paid. It is the putting of another person in the rebel's place. The rebel must die; God says he must. Christ says, "I will be substitute for the rebel. The rebel shall take my place; I will take his." God consents to it. No earthly monarch could have power to consent to such a change. But the God of heaven had a right to do as he pleased. In his infinite mercy he consented to the arrangement. " Son of my love," said he, "you must stand in the sinner's place; you must suffer what he ought to have suffered; you must be accounted guilty, just as he was accounted guilty; and then I will look upon the sinner in another light. I will look at him as if he were Christ; I will accept him as if he were my only- begotten Son, full of grace and truth. I will give him a crown in heaven, and I will take him to my heart for ever and ever." This is the way we are saved, "Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus." – Charles Spurgeon[/FONT]

- Davies
 
What substance? God is telling the "jew" not to seek to have their own rightoeusness, by law. But it does not apply to we gentile believers?

Thats your challenge? " Its not written for us"?
No, it is not written for us. It was the Jews, not the Gentiles who thought that their being a chosen people meant that salvation was limited to the Jews.

I have already provided a text from Romans 3 that shows that this concern is on Paul's mind. Have you no comment on that text?
 
Good morning Vietnammmmm,

Here is an example of a person who understands justification. Placed in his own words that can only be done by a person who has studied their Bible.

[FONT=&quot]Now, allow me to explain the way whereby God justifies a sinner. I am about to suppose an impossible case. A prisoner has been tried, and condemned to death. He is a guilty man; he cannot be justified, because he is guilty. But now, suppose for a moment that such a thing as this could happen—that some second party could be introduced, who could take all that man's guilt upon himself, who could change places with that man, and by some mysterious process, which of course is impossible with men, become that man; or take that man's character upon himself; he, the righteous man, putting the rebel in his place, and making the rebel a righteous man. We cannot do that in our courts. If I were to go before a judge, and he should agree that I should be committed for a year's imprisonment, instead of some wretch who was condemned yesterday to a year's imprisonment, I could not take his guilt. I might take his punishment, but not his guilt. Now, what flesh and blood cannot do, that Jesus Christ by his redemption did. Here I stand, the sinner. I mention myself as the representative of you all. I am condemned to die. God says, "I will condemn that man; I must, I will—I will punish him." Christ comes in, puts me aside, and stands himself in my stead. When the plea is demanded, Christ says, "Guilty;" takes my guilt to be his own guilt. When the punishment is to be executed, forth comes Christ. "Punish me," he says; "I have put my righteousness on that man, and I have taken that man's sins on me. Father, punish me, and consider that man to have been me. Let him reign in heaven; let me suffer misery. Let me endure his curse, and let him receive my blessing." This marvellous doctrine of the changing of places of Christ with poor sinners, is a doctrine of revelation, for it never could have been conceived by nature. Let me, lest I should have made a mistake, explain myself again. The way whereby God saves a sinner is not, as some say, by passing over the penalty. No; the penalty has been all paid. It is the putting of another person in the rebel's place. The rebel must die; God says he must. Christ says, "I will be substitute for the rebel. The rebel shall take my place; I will take his." God consents to it. No earthly monarch could have power to consent to such a change. But the God of heaven had a right to do as he pleased. In his infinite mercy he consented to the arrangement. " Son of my love," said he, "you must stand in the sinner's place; you must suffer what he ought to have suffered; you must be accounted guilty, just as he was accounted guilty; and then I will look upon the sinner in another light. I will look at him as if he were Christ; I will accept him as if he were my only- begotten Son, full of grace and truth. I will give him a crown in heaven, and I will take him to my heart for ever and ever." This is the way we are saved, "Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus." – Charles Spurgeon[/FONT]

- Davies

Why would you want to go by a "theory" vs the Bible?
 
BornAgain,

I'm not going by a theory. What Charles Spurgeon wrote is consistent with what the Bible says.

Are you really BornAgain?

- Davies

Charles Haddon Spurgeon was a British Particular Baptist preacher. Spurgeon remains highly influential among Christians of different denominations, among whom he is known as the "Prince of Preachers."

"Denominiations"...inconsistent with the Bible. Are you really Davies?
 
Good morning Vietnammmmm,

Here is an example of a person who understands justification. - Davies
Well, that person certainly has a position. But I am convinced it is not entirely correct. For one, I believe that there is no Biblical case for the imputation of Jesus' righteousness to the believer. We can talk about that if you like; However, I do not want to simply exchange statements of positions, I am hoping for substantive argument (in the "good" sense of argument).

So I will begin:

If one takes this text:

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and, sanctification, and, redemption

….and concludes that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, then logical consistency demands that we conclude that his wisdom is also imputed to us.

If you claim that this verse is another evidence of the fact that Christ's own righteousness is imputed to us, then you must also assert that his wisdom is imputed to us, since righteousness and wisdom are treated the same way in the verse. And we all know that we are not all walking around with the wisdom of Christ.
 
No, it is not written for us. It was the Jews, not the Gentiles who thought that their being a chosen people meant that salvation was limited to the Jews.

I have already provided a text from Romans 3 that shows that this concern is on Paul's mind. Have you no comment on that text?

So what? The scripture is clearly written for us! The whole book is written for the believer!



Rom 10:3

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5

Who is this for?:toofunny



Rom 10:11

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

no, its only for jews?:toofunny

How do some of you even get the nerve to post some of the things you try to sell as "faith"?:eeeekkk

 
Charles Haddon Spurgeon was a British Particular Baptist preacher. Spurgeon remains highly influential among Christians of different denominations, among whom he is known as the "Prince of Preachers."

"Denominiations"...inconsistent with the Bible. Are you really Davies?

Hi BornAgain,

I thought is was strange that you thought Spurgeon was putting forth a theory. No, he didn't use Scripture references, but being Bible literate, I would think a born again Christian would recognize his doctrine and applaud it.

No, I am not Davies, but I think it's a good name.

- Davies
 
The Bible is written for us but its not written to us. John Walton puts it eloquently

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o26Ad-WdjOw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

"For us but not to us"? Yea, I can see how that allows some to really "make-up" some wild doctrines!:eeeekkk

If some of you dont want to believe it, then walk away from it! It will be much better for you in the end, to walk past the Word of God, than to stop and commit perverted acts against Gods Word, as some of you do. :shame
 
"For us but not to us"? Yea, I can see how that allows some to really "make-up" some wild doctrines!:eeeekkk

If some of you dont want to believe it, then walk away from it! It will be much better for you in the end, to walk past the Word of God, than to stop and commit perverted acts against Gods Word, as some of you do. :shame

I get what John Walton means by that. It was written up to 3000 years ago; different culture, different style of communicating

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2
 
I get what John Walton means by that. It was written up to 3000 years ago; different culture, different style of communicating

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

The only John Walton I have ever heard of was on a TV show.:toofunny

And thats non-biblical to the very core!



1Co 2:9

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

To know the Scriptures is not a matter of anything but having the Spirit of God teach you!:wave

 
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