Obey God or never enter Heaven!

[Davies]

Well, that person certainly has a position. But I am convinced it is not entirely correct. For one, I believe that there is no Biblical case for the imputation of Jesus' righteousness to the believer. We can talk about that if you like; However, I do not want to simply exchange statements of positions, I am hoping for substantive argument (in the "good" sense of argument).

So I will begin:

If one takes this text:

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and, sanctification, and, redemption

….and concludes that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, then logical consistency demands that we conclude that his wisdom is also imputed to us.

If you claim that this verse is another evidence of the fact that Christ's own righteousness is imputed to us, then you must also assert that his wisdom is imputed to us, since righteousness and wisdom are treated the same way in the verse. And we all know that we are not all walking around with the wisdom of Christ.

There are several verses in the Bible that talk about imputation. I'm not sure what you think happened on the cross, but if you don't think your sin was imputed to Jesus, then how can He have paid for your sin? As for imputed righteousness, here is an example:

Romans 5:17-18

New King James Version (NKJV)

17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (emphasis added)

Judgment came to all men through the offense of one man, in like manner, the gift of righteousness comes to all men by the One Man resulting in justification. If we don't receive the gift of righteousness, then we don't have justification, because by the "one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."

As far as wisdom is concerned, I think we need to understand imputation. Do I always act like Jesus, no. Yet, through Jesus' righteousness, we are justified. That's what verse 18 says. His righteousness is given to me so that the Father looks at me and sees that I'm in Jesus Christ, and loves me as He loves Jesus. There is no sin, because it is Jesus' righteousness, and not the mixed bag of righteousness and unrighteousness I now perform. That's why imputation is vital because without it, our good deeds will never account for eternal life because they are mixed with unrighteousness. My sins our forgiven when I am saved; when my faith and trust are in Jesus. The farther down the sanctification path we go, the more we will use the wisdom that only comes from Jesus/God; work in progress, sanctification.


Justification is the reference to the legal status before God. Paul stated he had not yet reached his goal, but he says to forget the past and press forward, sanctification. At the end of his ministry, Paul stated he was the chief of sinners, but because his faith was in Jesus, he was justified by having received the free gift which resulted in justification. I conclude that even though I cannot act righteously in perfection, it is not my righteousness that I perform now that justifies me, but it is the righteousness of Jesus alone that merits justification. His sacrifice is the only one that is accepted by the Father witnessed by His resurrection and ascension. His righteousness was perfect, and yes it required Jesus to do everything under the Law. He did what we could not and still cannot even though we have the Holy Spirit in us. We only have a down payment.



Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,


- Davies

 

[Drew]

How do some of you even get the nerve to post some of the things you try to sell as "faith"?:eeeekkk

Where did you learn to treat others this way? At home? At church?

My argument is what it is and you have no engaged it.

Again: Paul is concerned that his fellow Jew believes that salvation is limited to Jews. It is in this particularly ethnically exclusivistic way that Paul is saying that they were trying to establish their "own righteousness". He is not, by contrast saying that Jews were trying to "earn" salvation through good works. The Jew about whom Paul writes here does not believe he has to "earn" salvation, he believes he is entitled to salvation in virtue of being a Jew.

That is Paul's argument here, and the broader context of the whole letter shows this to be the case.

Paul then concludes: Salvation is not for Jews only, it is for all who profess faith in Jesus Christ.

It is simply bad exegesis to think that every statement in scripture is 'about us'. It isn't - here at the very beginning of Romans 10, Paul is levelling a criticism at his fellow Jews.

 

[BornAgain]

Hi BornAgain,

I thought is was strange that you thought Spurgeon was putting forth a theory. No, he didn't use Scripture references, but being Bible literate, I would think a born again Christian would recognize his doctrine and applaud it.

No, I am not Davies, but I think it's a good name.

- Davies

He was a strong figure in the Reformed Baptist tradition, defending the Church in agreement with the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith understanding, and opposing the liberal and pragmatic theological tendencies in the Church of his day.

Colossians 2:8 (KJV)
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

I recognize his "doctrine" to know it is a theory...anybody can be bible literal but not biblical.

 

[Drew]

"For us but not to us"? Yea, I can see how that allows some to really "make-up" some wild doctrines!:eeeekkk

If some of you dont want to believe it, then walk away from it! It will be much better for you in the end, to walk past the Word of God, than to stop and commit perverted acts against Gods Word, as some of you do.

We will not "walk away". You have certain views which you express. When challenged, you ignore the substance of the challenge and then start of on a trail of dismissive, patronizing rebukes.

Its funny: Its almost as if people are trained in this strategy in the church itself.

Let's be clear about something: Clearly expressed challenges to your position have been provided. You need to deal with them. Pontification and bluster about how those with whom you disagree are "perverting" the scriptures will not fool the carefull reader! They will see that you are simply avoiding arguments that challenge your position.

 

[Drew]

There are several verses in the Bible that talk about imputation. I'm not sure what you think happened on the cross, but if you don't think your sin was imputed to Jesus, then how can He have paid for your sin? As for imputed righteousness, here is an example:

I never wrote anything that would lead you to conclude that I do not believe that my sins are imputed to Jesus.

And I have not written anything that would lead you to conclude that I believe that status of "righteousness" is not imputed to the believer.

What I have said is that we are not imputed with the righteousness of Jesus.

I will address the rest of your post, and make other relevant arguments as time permits.

 

[tessiewebb]

(Hebrews 10:26-27) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies.

I'm so glad you brought up these verses. I do want to say before I comment on it that I doubt VERY much that you have not sinned since becoming a Christian. As for "immature" Christians sinning but "spiritually mature" ones not sinning, that is pure bunk. Even if it were true, you are implying "baby" Christians are not held to the same standard even though 1 John clearly states that whoever is born of God CANNOT sin. That would include "baby" Christians. It is clear that those born of God cannot sin because Jesus as the Lamb of God has taken away the sins of the world. ALL our sins were imputed to Him during His lashing and crucifixion. So, now, whosoever believes in Him shall not perish. The only way that can be Truth is that the wages of sin equaling death has been done away with for those who believe in Him.

If all it took was "spiritual maturity", Jesus didn't have to be beaten nearly to death and then crucified for our sins. All He would have had to do was "grow up" His disciples. Paul, for goodness sake, called himself the "chief of sinners" and said the very things he didn't want to do, he found himself doing.

Now, as for those verses, the context is CLEARLY referring to those who go back to the law after having learned Jesus has taken away all their sins forever. For them, of course, there is no more sacrifice as under the law. Jesus fulfilled the law in every possible way, including being the final sacrifice. And aren't we glad He did!?!

For context to these verses, begin with verse 1: "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." (But Jesus' sacrifice accomplished just that)

Verse 2: "For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins."

Verse 3: "But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year." and so on.

You might ask yourself why Christians are not accused, as Paul was, of saying, "Let us do evil that good may come"? (Rom 3:8) Paul said of those who accused him of that "Their condemnation is just." We are not accused of this because we preach sin instead of Jesus.

And, btw, implying that anyone has not sinned after becoming a Christian is heaping guilt and condemnation on those who know they have. Jesus said "Be ye perfect", as in become. And that is only accomplished by being transformed into His Image by beholding HIS glory, not our "perfection". And, another thing, what does "spiritual maturity" even mean?

 

[smaller]

There are several verses in the Bible that talk about imputation. I'm not sure what you think happened on the cross, but if you don't think your sin was imputed to Jesus, then how can He have paid for your sin? As for imputed righteousness

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

- Davies

Righteousness is imputed, but not to the works of sin or evil in any of us.

Many think God in Christ only looks with kindness upon us all. Highlighted above is a fact of Gods Eyes upon all sinners, which is in fact rightful and righteous condemnation.

Condemnation that God in His Son laid down His Life to show. No, none of us really like to see that, even when it's right there in front of our eyes.

The 'natural mind' says, OH, well, God doesn't look at ME like that. Sure.

If a believer sees this Eye of fact and sees that they are in fact still sinners what should they see? Only the good (righteous imputation) parts?

Righteousness is imputed to believers. Righteousness will also fight sin to the death, as Jesus shows us.

It's never as easy as painting the entirety of ourselves with the imputation of righteousness as that will not apply to evil works, sin works or excusing any of that in the name of God.

God does work 'adversely' with that working in all of us. And for good reasons.

Having sin is the basis of chastisement from God, which He in fact works with all His sons.

Hebrews 12:8
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Israel of the Old Testament fell into the same lying trap with their false prophets and blinded leaders and people only prophesying good good good, because God is with us (or my church or my doctrine is thee only RIGHT one)

They found out the hard way that the opposite is in fact TRUE. And will remain TRUE.

God does not teach any of His sons to lie or to hide their sin in their bosom, painted over with Grace and Righteousness. All of us die in the flesh exactly because of what is IN same. Just like ADAM and every man since.

When any son realizes the fact that we can not rid ourselves of sin, they come to understand just how reliant we are on PURE DIVINE GRACE and MERCY and this held rightfully in legitimate respectful and due FEAR.

Paul stood in jeopardy every hour. That standing was not 'from the other people' but what he himself carried in himself.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

This working is blessed in no man. God is NOT a respecter of any person. God in fact HATED and CONDEMNED that EVIL in Paul just as much as God HATES same in any of us.

IT was 'not excused' or 'overlooked' at the cross.

Israel of the flesh was not allowed to look in TRUTH on the inside of their cup.

We are demanded to look there, or we are just as blind as they were and are.

s

 

[Butch5]

Well you have your opinion, I have the Living Word of God!:yes



Mat 24:35

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. :biglol

No, you have the Scriptures taken out of context. I've shown what the Scriptures say "IN CONTEXT" as have others. You on the other hand posted a bunch of one liners which you think support what you're saying. The fact that you can only post one liners to support what you are saying shows that in context they don't support what you're saying.

 

[Butch5]

Good morning Vietnammmmm,

Here is an example of a person who understands justification. Placed in his own words that can only be done by a person who has studied their Bible.

[FONT=&quot]Now, allow me to explain the way whereby God justifies a sinner. I am about to suppose an impossible case. A prisoner has been tried, and condemned to death. He is a guilty man; he cannot be justified, because he is guilty. But now, suppose for a moment that such a thing as this could happen—that some second party could be introduced, who could take all that man's guilt upon himself, who could change places with that man, and by some mysterious process, which of course is impossible with men, become that man; or take that man's character upon himself; he, the righteous man, putting the rebel in his place, and making the rebel a righteous man. We cannot do that in our courts. If I were to go before a judge, and he should agree that I should be committed for a year's imprisonment, instead of some wretch who was condemned yesterday to a year's imprisonment, I could not take his guilt. I might take his punishment, but not his guilt. Now, what flesh and blood cannot do, that Jesus Christ by his redemption did. Here I stand, the sinner. I mention myself as the representative of you all. I am condemned to die. God says, "I will condemn that man; I must, I will—I will punish him." Christ comes in, puts me aside, and stands himself in my stead. When the plea is demanded, Christ says, "Guilty;" takes my guilt to be his own guilt. When the punishment is to be executed, forth comes Christ. "Punish me," he says; "I have put my righteousness on that man, and I have taken that man's sins on me. Father, punish me, and consider that man to have been me. Let him reign in heaven; let me suffer misery. Let me endure his curse, and let him receive my blessing." This marvellous doctrine of the changing of places of Christ with poor sinners, is a doctrine of revelation, for it never could have been conceived by nature. Let me, lest I should have made a mistake, explain myself again. The way whereby God saves a sinner is not, as some say, by passing over the penalty. No; the penalty has been all paid. It is the putting of another person in the rebel's place. The rebel must die; God says he must. Christ says, "I will be substitute for the rebel. The rebel shall take my place; I will take his." God consents to it. No earthly monarch could have power to consent to such a change. But the God of heaven had a right to do as he pleased. In his infinite mercy he consented to the arrangement. " Son of my love," said he, "you must stand in the sinner's place; you must suffer what he ought to have suffered; you must be accounted guilty, just as he was accounted guilty; and then I will look upon the sinner in another light. I will look at him as if he were Christ; I will accept him as if he were my only- begotten Son, full of grace and truth. I will give him a crown in heaven, and I will take him to my heart for ever and ever." This is the way we are saved, "Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus." – Charles Spurgeon[/FONT]

- Davies

I'd say that's a man who has no idea of Biblical justification.

 

[Mitspa]

No, you have the Scriptures taken out of context. I've shown what the Scriptures say "IN CONTEXT" as have others. You on the other hand posted a bunch of one liners which you think support what you're saying. The fact that you can only post one liners to support what you are saying shows that in context they don't support what you're saying.

Jesus said His Words shall not pass away!

Some things just speak for themselves

Php 3:9

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Mat 24:35

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. :biglol

Mat 23:24

Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Is this what your looking for "Butch"?

 

[Mitspa]

I'm so glad you brought up these verses. I do want to say before I comment on it that I doubt VERY much that you have not sinned since becoming a Christian. As for "immature" Christians sinning but "spiritually mature" ones not sinning, that is pure bunk. Even if it were true, you are implying "baby" Christians are not held to the same standard even though 1 John clearly states that whoever is born of God CANNOT sin. That would include "baby" Christians. It is clear that those born of God cannot sin because Jesus as the Lamb of God has taken away the sins of the world. ALL our sins were imputed to Him during His lashing and crucifixion. So, now, whosoever believes in Him shall not perish. The only way that can be Truth is that the wages of sin equaling death has been done away with for those who believe in Him.

If all it took was "spiritual maturity", Jesus didn't have to be beaten nearly to death and then crucified for our sins. All He would have had to do was "grow up" His disciples. Paul, for goodness sake, called himself the "chief of sinners" and said the very things he didn't want to do, he found himself doing.

Now, as for those verses, the context is CLEARLY referring to those who go back to the law after having learned Jesus has taken away all their sins forever. For them, of course, there is no more sacrifice as under the law. Jesus fulfilled the law in every possible way, including being the final sacrifice. And aren't we glad He did!?!

For context to these verses, begin with verse 1: "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." (But Jesus' sacrifice accomplished just that)

Verse 2: "For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins."

Verse 3: "But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year." and so on.

You might ask yourself why Christians are not accused, as Paul was, of saying, "Let us do evil that good may come"? (Rom 3:8) Paul said of those who accused him of that "Their condemnation is just." We are not accused of this because we preach sin instead of Jesus.

And, btw, implying that anyone has not sinned after becoming a Christian is heaping guilt and condemnation on those who know they have. Jesus said "Be ye perfect", as in become. And that is only accomplished by being transformed into His Image by beholding HIS glory, not our "perfection". And, another thing, what does "spiritual maturity" even mean?

Excellent post my friend! but the truth dont seem to matter much to those who seem to think they have worked for their salvation?
Jesus and His work was means little to those who are so proud of their own!

2Pe 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:18

For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19

While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus said His Words shall not pass away!

Some things just speak for themselves

Php 3:9

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Mat 24:35

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. :biglol

Mat 23:24

Yeblind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26

Thoublind Pharisee, cleanse first thatwhich iswithin the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of deadmen'sbones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Is this what your looking for "Butch"?

As I said, nothing but one liners taken out of context. This suggests to me a fundamental misunderstanding of hermeneutics.

 

[reba]

Guys your getting insulting

 

[Mitspa]

As I said, nothing but one liners taken out of context. This suggests to me a fundamental misunderstanding of hermeneutics.

Joh 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Luk 18:17

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

Or if Only Paul had the chance to speak to you before he wrote this?

2Co 11:3

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

 

[Mitspa]

Guys your getting insulting

Oops sorry Ms Reba! I will back it down - Mitspa:yes

 

[Davies]

I'd say that's a man who has no idea of Biblical justification.

Temptations come through our desires, and we often fail. May God help us.

- Davies