Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........Some

[miamited]

Hi wondering

these are the 2 premises upon which reformed theology is built.

Just curious, but I looked up 'what' reformed theology means, because I'm not particularly familiar with the term. However, the definition I found doesn't really line up with yours:

Broadly speaking, Reformed theology includes any system of belief that traces its roots back to the Protestant Reformation of the 16th Century. Of course, the Reformers themselves traced their doctrine to Scripture, as indicated by their credo of “sola scriptura,” so Reformed theology is not a “new” belief system but one that seeks to continue apostolic doctrine.

Man is born totally depraved...not as depraved in every part of himself, but so depraved that he is unable to seek God.

Where did you say this belief that:

Man is born totally depraved...not as depraved in every part of himself, but so depraved that he is unable to seek God.

came from? What's the first time that claim was made. I mean, that's not saying the same thing as "For all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." That passage just says that all men have sinned, it doesn't give a clue as to whether or not men can seek God on their own. In fact, God's word promises that He will be found by those who seek diligently for Him. I don't read that as saying that no one can seek diligently for God unless God makes them. Do you?

Man does not have free will and so cannot choose God but will always choose to serve satan.

I don't see that point made in the Scriptures, either.

So, you may be correct in what you're saying about reformed theology, as I said, I'm not familiar with the term, but I don't think the claims that you're saying such theology is based on comes from the Scriptures.

God bless,
Ted

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks W, I don’t quite understand. I’m not a new member. It isn’t a thread so where should it go? Thanks!

I moved the thread and didn't know if it was in the old forum or the new subforum.
Anyway, this is the link:

ChristianForums.Net Who's Who

Greetings, all. A new member just joined and it dawned on me that having a brief synopsis of the beliefs or denominational affiliations of active members here might help new members with potentially identifying someone they have similar beliefs with, as well as more clearly understand the...

christianforums.net

 

[atpollard]

Only the actual person will know why...this we really can't know.

Just out of curiosity, do you know WHY you "accepted"?
I mean, why does anyone believe "one thing" over "another thing"?

 

[Iconoclast]

Here it is, now you can see it; psalm14
14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

romans3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Man is born totally depraved..

You didn't answer my question. Did you choose of your own "free willyism" to be depraved or did God saddle you with that burden? (aside: you'll probably dodge this question but I thought I point it out for the amusement of others)



Re: John 15:16

The above verse is Jesus speaking to His Apostles.
He chose them individually, 12, representing the 12 Tribes of Israel.
He appointed them to go and bear fruit. Jesus did not appoint all disciples to go and bear fruit, but only His original Apostles.

Agreed. Yet another example of GOD doing the choosing and not the imaginary doctrine of "free willies".
Surprised me ... thought you might say the Christ chose them because they choose Him. (circular logic, but a command refrain of "free willyism".

Jesus is speaking to the Apostles and all scholars will affirm

Wow, I think that may be the first time ever you referred to theological scholarship. Maybe the truth of reformed theology is rubbing off. (smile)

I'll be happy to discuss any scripture with you,
but one at a time. I'm not responding to carpet-bombing.

Well, I am impressed that you did respond to verses. I give you props for that. I 'carpet bomb' because my side has so much ammunition and your side has little. Also, I want to the thought of people to thinking I am cherry picking.
Again, props for giving your interpretation of verses.

How about John 1:12-13 that say we are saved (going to heaven) because of the will of God and then to thrust the point further in the face of the self-righteous God says we are NOT SAVED BY THE WILL OF MAN. What's your spin on that one.
I've got several hundred verses explicitly and implicitly saying Free Willyism is a joke. You got four (John 3:16, John 6:51, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4,6) all of which depend on the ambiguous meaning of ALL or WORLD. The rest of Free Will doctrine relies on weak excuses to believe that depend upon circular logic.... i.e. Free Will is true because God told me to choose which mean Free Will is true.

I have asked quite a few times where in the OT free will was taken away from us since Adam surely had it...
but no answer is forthcoming.

The question is based on a false premise: that Free Will is true in the first place.
Adam had Free Will? Please .... Adam was created by God and Adam's will was created by God. Man does not have the ability to create out of nothing like....like Adam didn't say...."Well, I have a body.... I think I will now create a will for my body". Ridiculous, man creating his own will.

 

[atpollard]

And your first sentence just can't be accepted....
IF God is choosing some for heaven....
the rest are going to hell.
Defacto choosing them for hell.
You can't get around this.
At least THIS has to be accepted by the reformed.

So the Governor chooses to kill every murderer that receives the Death Penalty because the Governor did not pardon them. The fact that they killed someone is not responsible. The fact that they were fairly judged for their crime and convicted is not responsible. Once the Governor pardons ANYBODY, then he and he alone is responsible for the death of ALL of the others.

Is that really your argument against God condemning men for the sins that men willingly commit?

 

[atpollard]

I suppose that makes some sense in your thinking? Yes, billions have died never having heard of Christ. And that was before he even came.

A quirk of Population Growth is that HALF of all the people that have EVER lived are alive today ... think of the implication for Evangelism ... so only Millions died before Jesus came.

 

[miamited]

Just out of curiosity, do you know WHY you "accepted"?
I mean, why does anyone believe "one thing" over "another thing"?

Hi atpollard

If I may be so bold as to add my 2¢ worth. That's the job of the Holy Spirit. We come to believe when we hear the gospel or begin to study about God and God's Spirit opens our eyes and our hearts to the truth. So, I believe that we believe one thing over another, as regards faith in Jesus and his Father, because the Holy Spirit draws us to that belief. Jesus was pretty clear that no one comes to the Father, unless the Spirit draws them.

Now, that's not the same as the Spirit 'making' someone believe. No, I think the Spirit just pricks the heart of the seeker to 'see' the truth contained within the Scriptures. We then make the choice to follow or not.

God bless,
Ted

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering

Just curious, but I looked up 'what' reformed theology means, because I'm not particularly familiar with the term. However, the definition I found doesn't really line up with yours:

Broadly speaking, Reformed theology includes any system of belief that traces its roots back to the Protestant Reformation of the 16th Century. Of course, the Reformers themselves traced their doctrine to Scripture, as indicated by their credo of “sola scriptura,” so Reformed theology is not a “new” belief system but one that seeks to continue apostolic doctrine.

Right.
Reformed Theology.
Reformation.
At the beginning of the Reformation with Luther starting it off, they wanted so much to get away from Catholicism that the big names were accepted as teaching the "new" ideas....some of which we still have with us today.
The big ideas were: Faith Alone, Christ Alone, Scripture Alone, Glory to God Only, Grace Alone.
These are known as the Five Solas of the reformed faith.

Some of the big names were: Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli (not in any order).

The reformed faith was very harsh and it was abandoned.
In the 1800s the new ideas of Christianity were developed.
(like what we know today).

I agree with all of the above in yellow except for continuing in the Apostolic Doctrine.
The Apostolic Fathers DID NOT believe in either predestination or determinism.
(unless they were gnostic).

Where did you say this belief that:

I was speaking of total depravity. It's a reformed idea...I was quoting THEIR teachings.
There is something called the TULIP in reformed theology. This acronym was devised, I think, in the 1930's
to make it easier to remember what they teach.
Here it is:
T TOTAL DEPRAVITY
U UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
L LIMITED ATONEMENT (THIS IS SO EXTREME, EVEN SOME CALVINISTS DON'T BELIEVE IT)
I IRRISISTABLE GRACE
P PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

came from? What's the first time that claim was made. I mean, that's not saying the same thing as "For all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." That passage just says that all men have sinned, it doesn't give a clue as to whether or not men can seek God on their own. In fact, God's word promises that He will be found by those who seek diligently for Him. I don't read that as saying that no one can seek diligently for God unless God makes them. Do you?

You're absolutely right Ted.
That verse says nothing of what calvinists believe it says.
Man is born with the sin nature - let's call it depraved for the sake of argument.
BUT, man does have the ability to seek God. It's written all over the OT and is taught also in the NT.

I don't see that point made in the Scriptures, either.

Right again. I was referring to free will . The reformed believe man does NOT have free will.
We certainly know that we do, it's evident from Genesis to Revelation.
BTW, some don't like to be called Calvinists, so I'll say reformed instead.
But most of the teachings do come from John Calvin.
He wrote a book (4 volumes) called John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion.
It's scary stuff.

So, you may be correct in what you're saying about reformed theology, as I said, I'm not familiar with the term, but I don't think the claims that you're saying such theology is based on comes from the Scriptures.

God bless,
Ted

Right. I was stating what THEY believe.
I'm totally against all Calvinist teachings.
But they have some teachers/pastors on YouTube that talk so well...
They seem to attract the young.
Maybe it takes personal responsibility away - I'm not sure why.

 

[GodsGrace]

How is God impartial?

Were the ancient Norse treated the same as the ancient Jews?
Where was my ancestor's burning bush to teach us about God?

God is "no respecter of persons". God chose some Jews (like David) and not others (like Esau). God chose some non-Jews (like Ruth) and not others (the Canaanites). God chose some members of my family (Me) and not others (my murdered siblings and atheist parent).

Impartial means you treat everyone the same way.
This is what makes an action be just or not.

God is just if He treats everyone the same and gives to all the same opportunity to be saved.
God is not just if He picks out some persons to be saved and not others.

Could you explain how God is JUST in sending some to heaven and some to hell FOR NO REASON THAT WE CAN KNOW and without giving everyone the same opportunity?

THIS IS GOD being PARTIAL to some and not to others.
The bible says God is IMPARTIAL.

So how do you reconcile this conflict?

 

[GodsGrace]

Does everyone really have the same opportunity to be saved?
Explain to me how that works.

Easy.
Tell them how.
If they're interested in salvation they'll follow the rules.
If they're not interested in salvation, they won't - and they won't CARE about being lost.

It's putting the responsibility on the person if they DO NOT choose God.
It allows God to be just because He's treating everyone the same exact way.

 

[miamited]

A quirk of Population Growth is that HALF of all the people that have EVER lived are alive today ... think of the implication for Evangelism ... so only Millions died before Jesus came.

Alright. Let's do the math. The estimated current world population stands at 8b people alive right now today. Estimated population by history tells us that it would have been about 1804 that the earth's population crossed the 1b mark.

Now, other estimates say that the world population was about 300 million when Jesus lived among us. But that was after 4,000 years of people living on the earth. So, how many people were alive in the year 100 B.C.? How many people were alive in 200 B.C.?

My thinking would be that if there were 300 million people alive when Jesus was here, there were likely pretty close to 300 million people alive in 100 B.C. and likely about 300 million people alive in 200 B.C. Historical population numbers stayed remarkably constant for a long time. And if we continue back, then there were likely 250 million people alive in 300 B.C. Probably 200 million in 400 B.C. I have to say that I'm really pretty sketch about your claim.

I mean if those numbers are even close to correct, thats a billion people that lived just in those 400 years. Should we stop counting back the other 3600?

God bless,
Ted

 

[atpollard]

Easy.
Tell them how.
If they're interested in salvation they'll follow the rules.
If they're not interested in salvation, they won't - and they won't CARE about being lost.

It's putting the responsibility on the person if they DO NOT choose God.
It allows God to be just because He's treating everyone the same exact way.

1. Tell someone living in North America in 1400 about Jesus. Was his opportunity the same as the person living in Paris near Notre Dame Cathedral in 1400?
2. There are Muslims living in the mountains of Western China as an oppressed people group ... Is their opportunity to hear and believe the same as someone living in North America today?

No ... "equal opportunity" is a myth.

 

[GodsGrace]

Respectfully, there is a huge difference between "knowing that there IS a God" (from His creation) and "knowing God" (because He gave you the Torah). God gave something to Israel that He withheld from the rest of the world (until they hear the Gospel).

Yes, This is true.

But everyone will be judged on the amount of light they had.
To whom more is given, more will be expected.
Romans chapter 2 verses 9 and 10 states that God will judge by the light they had.

And I could also say that IF God does the choosing of who is saved and who is passed over,
what would be the reason for judgment? What would there be to judge?

Listen to what Jesus stated:
John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Jesus says we'll be judged by our good deeds !
Those who commit evil to a resurrection of judgment. (damnation).

 

[Iconoclast]

Hi Iconoclast

Man, that's a wonderful homily. It's a shame that it isn't true.

It is true, your explanation is not biblical however.

Yes, God through the Holy Spirit calls us based on His understanding of our heart.

Here is God's understanding of our heart; jer17
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Jesus was clear that no one comes to him, that the Father doesn't first 'draw' them to him

He was more specific than that as he spoke of the Covenant of Redemption.jn6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

. The word 'draw' likely needs some definition. BTW the lady was wrong. God did not save 'her' on purpose.

According to the bible God certainly saved her on purpose.
The Father gave ALL who will be saved to the Son;
notice=All...not most, not some...All are given by the Father to the Son. When did the father do it? before time was.

God put out His word which tells us His plan. He sent His Son which fulfilled His plan. Now, as Peter says, God is waiting for 'some' to come to the knowledge of truth.

No...Jesus seeks and saves by the Spirit. He is not sitting back as you suggest.

It isn't forced. That's the entire part of this plan that so many people don't seem to get. God isn't going to force anyone to do anything. He's just put it out there and now waits patiently for some to come to the knowledge of His salvation and turn back to Him through His Son, Jesus.

Not so....

So yes, we don't agree on this understanding of God's word.

No, because you are ignoring what the verses say.

God bless,
Ted

 

[GodsGrace]

Just out of curiosity, do you know WHY you "accepted"?
I mean, why does anyone believe "one thing" over "another thing"?

In the book of Romans, Paul speaks about different types of persons and why they might not believe.
I forget the chapters...
In one the persons are very wicked and do not want to be saved...they don't even want to hear about God. Romans 1:32
Other persons think they are good people and don't need God...moralists that think they're perfect.
Maybe we're too proud.
Maybe life is good and we don't think about God until we hit the bottom of the barrel.

Why did I accept?
I was in physical trouble and I prayed to a God I believed existed.
Jesus spoke to me (not in audible words) and I did what He said and I got well.
Need I say more?

BTW, I also can say that every Christian I know believes that God always makes the first move...
we just respond to the amount of grace He gives us to enable us to say yes or no to Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

You didn't answer my question. Did you choose of your own "free willyism" to be depraved or did God saddle you with that burden? (aside: you'll probably dodge this question but I thought I point it out for the amusement of others)



Re: John 15:16

Agreed. Yet another example of GOD doing the choosing and not the imaginary doctrine of "free willies".
Surprised me ... thought you might say the Christ chose them because they choose Him. (circular logic, but a command refrain of "free willyism".



Wow, I think that may be the first time ever you referred to theological scholarship. Maybe the truth of reformed theology is rubbing off. (smile)



Well, I am impressed that you did respond to verses. I give you props for that. I 'carpet bomb' because my side has so much ammunition and your side has little. Also, I want to the thought of people to thinking I am cherry picking.
Again, props for giving your interpretation of verses.

How about John 1:12-13 that say we are saved (going to heaven) because of the will of God and then to thrust the point further in the face of the self-righteous God says we are NOT SAVED BY THE WILL OF MAN. What's your spin on that one.
I've got several hundred verses explicitly and implicitly saying Free Willyism is a joke. You got four (John 3:16, John 6:51, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4,6) all of which depend on the ambiguous meaning of ALL or WORLD. The rest of Free Will doctrine relies on weak excuses to believe that depend upon circular logic.... i.e. Free Will is true because God told me to choose which mean Free Will is true.





The question is based on a false premise: that Free Will is true in the first place.
Adam had Free Will? Please .... Adam was created by God and Adam's will was created by God. Man does not have the ability to create out of nothing like....like Adam didn't say...."Well, I have a body.... I think I will now create a will for my body". Ridiculous, man creating his own will.

I'm not here for anyone's amusement FF.
I find it really difficult to converse with you.

 

[atpollard]

Hi atpollard

If I may be so bold as to add my 2¢ worth. That's the job of the Holy Spirit. We come to believe when we hear the gospel or begin to study about God and God's Spirit opens our eyes and our hearts to the truth. So, I believe that we believe one thing over another, as regards faith in Jesus and his Father, because the Holy Spirit draws us to that belief. Jesus was pretty clear that no one comes to the Father, unless the Spirit draws them.

Now, that's not the same as the Spirit 'making' someone believe. No, I think the Spirit just pricks the heart of the seeker to 'see' the truth contained within the Scriptures. We then make the choice to follow or not.

God bless,
Ted

Doesn't that just "kick the ball down the field"?
So then: Why does one yield to the Holy Spirit and another resist the power of God?

 

[GodsGrace]

So the Governor chooses to kill every murderer that receives the Death Penalty because the Governor did not pardon them. The fact that they killed someone is not responsible. The fact that they were fairly judged for their crime and convicted is not responsible. Once the Governor pardons ANYBODY, then he and he alone is responsible for the death of ALL of the others.

Is that really your argument against God condemning men for the sins that men willingly commit?

You really don't understand justice....
This can be the only reason you can accept reformed theology.

If the governor kills every murderer that receives the Death Penalty, he is doing JUSTICE.
If someone is pardoned, it's because that person is believed to be INNOCENT and incarcerated UNJUSTLY.

If you need an analogy I'll give you one,
but it would be nice if you just knew what JUSTICE is.

What IS justice ?

 

[atpollard]

Alright. Let's do the math. The estimated current world population stands at 8b people alive right now today. Estimated population by history tells us that it would have been about 1804 that the earth's population crossed the 1b mark.

Now, other estimates say that the world population was about 300 million when Jesus lived among us. But that was after 4,000 years of people living on the earth. So, how many people were alive in the year 100 B.C.? How many people were alive in 200 B.C.?

My thinking would be that if there were 300 million people alive when Jesus was here, there were likely pretty close to 300 million people alive in 100 B.C. and likely about 300 million people alive in 200 B.C. Historical population numbers stayed remarkably constant for a long time. And if we continue back, then there were likely 250 million people alive in 300 B.C. Probably 200 million in 400 B.C. I have to say that I'm really pretty sketch about your claim.

I mean if those numbers are even close to correct, thats a billion people that lived just in those 400 years. Should we stop counting back the other 3600?

God bless,
Ted

Good job ... keep me honest. ;)