Old Testament Genocide

[Alabaster]

There should be no fear in love. Fear only comes when the OTHER person CAN hurt you by their actions. I'm not talking about just physical pain but emotional. Without the possibility of this happening to you, you should never have a "fear", just because of the potential power of the being. .. . . .IF that being is GOOD.

When we love God, we fear Him in the right way---it is called reverential awe. If you don't know Him, that kind of fear is impossible.

But Alabaster, you say this because you were born in a culture of christianity. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia, you would have been stating the same about Islam and Allah. Fervant belief still isn't enough. And after 30 years of trying to "know god", I saw/felt/knew nothing other than myself. No where near an "intimate" level. I won't say anything against those who say that they DO have this level of relationship, but I see it as inadequate. Trying to pull out things from my mind, or read by chance in a book [often times what I read had nothing to do with a situation I was in], I could not conclude my christianity as being real to me.

I praise God many times for the fact that I was born when and where I was born---it is all due to His perfect plan.

We don't have to 'try' to know God! He reveals Himself in many wonderful, subtle and overt ways! Ask God to open your spiritual eyes to see Him! God would indeed know you were trying to know Him and He was showing you, but the enemy of your soul, Satan, was clouding your vision with a veil of some kind, keeping you blind to your very Source! It isn't difficult to stop for a moment and appreciate the universe as God's special creation and yourself also as a beautiful creation set into His masterpiece. If you cannot see even that basic, then I believe it is safe to say that in all your seeking, you have looked past the obvious, and that is, in my opinion due to the engineering of Satan himself.

The first step toward knowing God is to realize that you are a sinner, and desperately in need of a Saviour.

I'm probably going to start a thread on the whole notion of "dying for us". I'm sure it will be controversial and could get me banned. So I hesitate.

I don't think you would have the correct stance on the subject, so in order to not be banned, please do not initiate a thread. Why don't you ask us some carefully worded questions about it?

 

[Deavonreye]

farouk, are you really comparing "numbers of dead" as an argument? It is not relevant to this topic.

By the way, I'm not here defending the dictators who were the cause of millions of deaths, nor am I here defending their ideologies.

 

[Deavonreye]

I'm not going to continue with the debate on the word "fear". I have a differing oppinion.

We don't have to 'try' to know God! He reveals Himself in many wonderful, subtle and overt ways! Ask God to open your spiritual eyes to see Him! God would indeed know you were trying to know Him and He was showing you, but the enemy of your soul, Satan, was clouding your vision with a veil of some kind, keeping you blind to your very Source!

Again. . . . [not sure how to say this any differently], please understand that I prayed MANY MANY times that my "spiritual eyes be opened". Also, if Satan is somehow "clouding my vision", then it must be concluded that Satan's power is greater than that of god's. He is far more convincing, . . . . which seems odd if the holy spirit is doing his/her job correctly.

 

[Alabaster]

I'm not going to continue with the debate on the word "fear". I have a differing oppinion.

Everyone has one. But the Bible supersedes yours.

Again. . . . [not sure how to say this any differently], please understand that I prayed MANY MANY times that my "spiritual eyes be opened". Also, if Satan is somehow "clouding my vision", then it must be concluded that Satan's power is greater than that of god's. He is far more convincing, . . . . which seems odd if the holy spirit is doing his/her job correctly.

When Satan dupes a person, it is very hard for him to know it. Holy Spirit does His job 'correctly'! But it is your choice to remain where you are. It is up to you to CHOOSE CORRECTLY.

You have been given truth and you will have to stand before God knowing that you had it handed to you so many times yet rejected it. You are responsible before Him for the truth you have been given.

 

[barelohim]

I love what Aristotle stated when being tried for heresy... After listening to the prosecuting witnesses and their charges against him, Aristotle replies... " Gentlemen, when you were being taught the ideas and precepts that you have held for these long years, there was noone there at that time to refute, or debate that which you were being taught.....................UNTIL NOW!


Bar.

 

[mondar]

So, should the christian curse people that curse christians, . . . . or love their enemies and pray for those who persecute them?

I assume that this is a rhetorical question? Certainly Christians are to love their enemies. Does this mean that God cannot deal out justice?

 

[barelohim]

Again. . . . [not sure how to say this any differently], please understand that I prayed MANY MANY times that my "spiritual eyes be opened". Also, if Satan is somehow "clouding my vision", then it must be concluded that Satan's power is greater than that of god's. He is far more convincing, . . . . which seems odd if the holy spirit is doing his/her job correctly.

What one believes, takes faith to walk in! Especially when they don't see/or feel/or sense, its' reality!

Believing is like a pregnancy, you either are, or not! BUT Faith is the evidence, the assurance, of that which is not seen/or felt/or even sensed..

This *faith* is the evidence, just as a smoking gun is at a trial!

This faith is that which GOD gives, when one confesses a belief in Gods Word.

We first must believe in the heart, and confess to God or men, that which we believe, and God gives the faith to realize its validity, and reality...

Without this faith, one cannot please or receive from Him..

Sincerely In Christ
Bar

 

[mondar]

What one believes, takes faith to walk in! Especially when they don't see/or feel/or sense, its' reality!

Believing is like a pregnancy, you either are, or not! BUT Faith is the evidence, the assurance, of that which is not seen/or felt/or even sensed..

This *faith* is the evidence, just as a smoking gun is at a trial!

This faith is that which GOD gives, when one confesses a belief in Gods Word.

We first must believe in the heart, and confess to God or men, that which we believe, and God gives the faith to realize its validity, and reality...

Without this faith, one cannot please or receive from Him..

Sincerely In Christ
Bar

Are you taking Hebrew classes?

 

[barelohim]

Are you taking Hebrew classes?

Thanks Just part of my new nature!

Bar

 

[Drew]

Drew, I only choose to go after those [perhaps more] fringe type of christian ideologies that I find immoral/unethical.

Fair enough, I think that's entirely appropriate.

I think I DID respond to this. But I will re-respond. In my opinion, this isn't any better than "god judging them". It equates people as that which shouldn't have been there, or something that has no value [such as cancer] and the only option would be irradication.

The problem with this answer is that you make a number of hidden assumptions. Now to be fair, for my part I perhaps did not go into as much detail as I could have.

It is also possible that the world we are in - yes including the history with all the genocide - is indeed the "best possible world" that could have been created by God. What if the "best possible world" involves God "delegating" some of His power to a creature that He has created and placed in a position of "governance" over the universe. And perhaps this involved "taking the risk" that this creature (man, of course) would make a big mistake and that redressing the damage created by man necessitates all these Old Testament genocides.

I politely suggest you have been influenced by overly simplistic Christian ideas about the nature of omniscience and fore-knowledge. It is "re-assuring" to think that God can do "whatever He wants to do" and that He knows everything in advance. But I suggest that there are indeed good reasons to question such notions.

At the end of the day, I realize that I have only addressed possibilities. But, I suggest, "fairness" demands that you acknowledge that these are indeed possibilities.

In my opinion, IF god was the ultimate creator of this extremely complicated universe, what happened in this world would have been a colossal blunder on god's part. If foreknowledge was an actual characteristic, then millions of deaths of people would have been forseen and a better plan put in place. On the other hand, IF this was god's plan, then it could ONLY be the case that god required millions. . . even billions of unnecessary deaths and souls suffering for all eternity, just for the extreme few that he happened to see "believing the right way".

Again, this view of yours fundamentally begs the question at issue by making a number of hidden assumptions about such things as:

1. What God can possibly do, conditioned on past events (stated otherwise: How constraining any commitments God makes are on His future choices);

2. What God can possibly know about the future.

To sum up, there should have been no reason FOR god to "heal the world".

This is speculation on your part - you do not know that God did "the best He could do" and that history took a turn that required that God indeed heal the world.

We Christians are our own worst enemies in these matters - buying into questionable "Sunday School" ideas about the nature of God and what God's commitment to His creation may have entailed. And so, naturally enough, we pass these ideas on to the wider world, leading to the kinds of arguments you are making.

Again, I want to be clear - I am not suggesting that I have provided (yet anyway) any kind of substantive argument for the possibilities I have mentioned. But I suggest that neither have you argued for your position, in that you presume so many things about God and what He is (or was) "free" to do.

I suspect we can agree on this - the world is often a lot more complicated that any "model" either you or I might carry around in our minds.

 

[Drew]

Umm...the 20th century, as led by aetheist dictators, was the most bloodthirsty period in human history.

In the light of this, for me to feel obliged somehow to defend the God of the Old Testament (who ordained promise amidst human failure) would be an exercise in irony.

I politely suggest that you are basically arguing that since "atheists" have shed so much blood, this gets the Christian "off the hook" for explaining why God ordered mass genocides in the Old Testament.

Things are not that easy - the challenges posed by Deavonreye (and many others) can and need to be addressed head on.

 

[Drew]

I love what Aristotle stated when being tried for heresy... After listening to the prosecuting witnesses and their charges against him, Aristotle replies... " Gentlemen, when you were being taught the ideas and precepts that you have held for these long years, there was noone there at that time to refute, or debate that which you were being taught.....................UNTIL NOW!


Bar.

Not sure what your point is. I trust that we all understand that everyone - Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, whatever - has a "received" worldview that colours how they look at their world. So no one is any less, or any more, able to be objective about these things - at least to the extent that a person is unwilling to step back from his/her worldview (a very difficult thing to do).

 

[Drew]

I assume that this is a rhetorical question? Certainly Christians are to love their enemies. Does this mean that God cannot deal out justice?

The problem with this is that while we are instructed (by Jesus) to implement justice in a restorative, constructive manner in a spirit of love, we have this Old Testament image of a petulant, angry, vindictive god who apparently cannot do what He, through Jesus, is asking us to do.

Don't get me wrong - I believe that God indeed ordered the Old Testament genocides. But I believe that these were not done in accordance with the concept of "justice" that most Christians have in their minds - one where "somebody's gotta get hurt" in order to satisfy some cosmic balance of justice.

I suggest a better approach, more true to the fine-grained details of what we read in Scripture is to interpret these genocides as part of a lengthy plan where God is out, not to have babies run through with swords to satisfy a seemingly arbitrary standard of "justice", but rather to take the steps needed to rid the world of the true enemy - the power of sin at work in the world.

In this respect, note what Paul tells us in Romans 8:3 - it is sin that is condemned on the cross, not Jesus (even though, obviously enough, Jesus dies). Taking this text seriously in its fine-grained detail, and not letting our "traditions" trump what Paul actually writes hints at an intriguing possibility - that what we have interpreted as judgements of a particular kind (ones where God "needs blood" to satisfy a principle of "justice") are instead actions directed at materially defeating the real enemy - sin.

I am fully aware that Old Testament texts use the language of "judgement" in respect to these genocides. But things are not always what they seem. We (Christians) are all too happy to see Jesus as the Jewish Messiah and see salvation being available to Gentiles as well as Jews, when, if you take the Old Testament seriously, this requires some rather fancy footwork to make it all work.

In short, to be consistent we need to ensure that we are not overly restrictive in terms of how we interpret categories like "judgement". By the way, I am fully aware that this post is very open-ended - I have not, of course, either fully explained my position, nor fully defended it.

 

[Alabaster]

To sum up, there should have been no reason FOR god to "heal the world".

Except that Satan messed it up and we need to be rescued... or would you rather He had created you as a robot?

 

[barelohim]

Not sure what your point is. I trust that we all understand that everyone - Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, whatever - has a "received" worldview that colours how they look at their world. So no one is any less, or any more, able to be objective about these things - at least to the extent that a person is unwilling to step back from his/her worldview (a very difficult thing to do).

That is the point Drew... The world view was received without anyone there to refute/debate the view taken... Like He said, " Unless one is ready to give up their life, they will never find it!" We come, as little children, with a simple belief! He does the verification.

In Him
Bar

 

[barelohim]

Gentlemen, have you forgotten that ALL MEN, from Adam to the time of Christ went only to one place, which was *death*! Not because of what they did, but because of what they were through adam... Which is why Jesus had to legally die, in order to enter the place of death, that He might take those held in the captivity of death, out. a { text-decoration: none; }
KJV: I Peter Chapter 3
[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
[20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

a { text-decoration: none; }KJV: Ephesians Chapter 4
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

So save for Elijah, and Enoch, all men/woman/children went into the place of death, for the wages of sin is death.... that Christ could conquer death, and those held in its depths..

So Genicide, benicide, peroxide, it is a fruitless dialogue..

In Him
Bar

 

[Ashua]

The whole of humanity deserved to be genocided. Anthropocide. That is justice. God would be just to destroy us all except his covenant. He doesn't owe us anything. The real question is not? Why shouldn't he? Why did God ordain genocide of idolators, but why does he spare the rest of us?

As it is written: I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

(Exodus 33:19; Romans 9:16)

 

[mondar]

Gentlemen, have you forgotten that ALL MEN, from Adam to the time of Christ went only to one place, which was *death*! Not because of what they did, but because of what they were through adam... Which is why Jesus had to legally die, in order to enter the place of death, that He might take those held in the captivity of death, out. a { text-decoration: none; }
KJV: I Peter Chapter 3
[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
[20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

a { text-decoration: none; }KJV: Ephesians Chapter 4
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

So save for Elijah, and Enoch, all men/woman/children went into the place of death, for the wages of sin is death.... that Christ could conquer death, and those held in its depths..

So Genicide, benicide, peroxide, it is a fruitless dialogue..

In Him
Bar

Good point.

 

[Drew]

The whole of humanity deserved to be genocided. Anthropocide. That is justice. God would be just to destroy us all except his covenant. He doesn't owe us anything. The real question is not? Why shouldn't he? Why did God ordain genocide of idolators, but why does he spare the rest of us?

As it is written: I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

(Exodus 33:19; Romans 9:16)

I do not think this answer ultimately works. How does God expect us to treat those who deserve the "justice" of death? Jesus instructs us to do good to those who do evil. So how can God hold us to such a standard and reserve for Himself the "right" to kill and destroy in the name of "justice". This does not seem credible - we, the creatures, are to seek restoration, healing, and do no harm, while God Himself engages in frightful carnage in the name of "justice"

Please do not misunderstand me - I am not saying that God did not order all these killings. But I suggest that we misread these events if we understand them to be God "getting justice". I suggest that what is really going on is that God orders these genocides because they have to take place in order to defeat the real enemy - sin, understood to be a "power" at loose in the world.

Again the chemotherapy analogy. Does the doctor kill all the good cells for some "reason of principle"? No. He kills all the good cells because it is the only mechanism available to get the real enemy - the cancer cells.

It is really unintelligible that a God of love would seek the death of any creature for any reason other than that there is no other choice except to do so (i.e. in pursuit of some higher goal).

 

[Ashua]

I do not think this answer ultimately works. How does God expect us to treat those who deserve the "justice" of death? Jesus instructs us to do good to those who do evil. So how can God hold us to such a standard and reserve for Himself the "right" to kill and destroy in the name of "justice". This does not seem credible - we, the creatures, are to seek restoration, healing, and do no harm, while God Himself engages in frightful carnage in the name of "justice"

Please do not misunderstand me - I am not saying that God did not order all these killings. But I suggest that we misread these events if we understand them to be God "getting justice". I suggest that what is really going on is that God orders these genocides because they have to take place in order to defeat the real enemy - sin, understood to be a "power" at loose in the world.

Again the chemotherapy analogy. Does the doctor kill all the good cells for some "reason of principle"? No. He kills all the good cells because it is the only mechanism available to get the real enemy - the cancer cells.

It is really unintelligible that a God of love would seek the death of any creature for any reason other than that there is no other choice except to do so (i.e. in pursuit of some higher goal).

I don't know what to say to this. You admit that God ordered Israel to genocide those people who were squatting in their land. (The Promised Land was given to Israel for an inheritance and those idolators moved in. Notice how Israel conversed occasionally with sojourners in the land who were not there to build on it in the days of Joshua?)

You say a God of love wouldn't do this aside from a sort of "last resort", but this statement hinges on a God of infinite power and majesty with full command over creation and the elements contrary to "nature's law" being impotent to work in the hearts of men to achieve a more peaceable solution.

The king's heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: he guides it wherever he pleases. -Proverbs 21:1

We know that God can harden a heart as he did with Pharaoh to achieve his divine purpose, or he can turn a stoney heart into an heart of flesh according to his good pleasure and majesty.

You began your question by asking how we should treat those who deserve "justice" which is death.

The answer is:

God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.

3Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. -Psalm 53:2-3

Christ said to Judge not lest ye be judged. It is not the role of a man to stand in eternal judgment over another. As it is written: He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone. And again: By what measure you judge others, it will be measured back at you. We are condemned or justified by our words. If we judge another sinner, while we be yet a sinner ourselves, we have condemned ourselves. You who say that a man should not steal, do you steal? You who abhorrest idols, do you commit sacrilege? You who say that a man should not commit adultery, do you lust in your heart?

If so, then you are unfit to execute judgment by your own agenda. Only if God ordains it as he ordained Joshua.

Vengeance is mine says the LORD I will repay. If he uses Joshua or any man to execute his judgment, by HIS volition for whatever reason whatsoever, so be it. It isn't Joshua who decided he wanted to genocide those (sinful) people. It was God. So to presume that he was treating people who deserve justice wrongly is void. Remember, we are judging humanity in a 21st century western perspective. God judges from the infinitive.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, -Romans 9:13-23