Once saved..always saved....It's right here.

[By Grace]

Jim Parker said: ↑
No one and nothing can forcibly remove anyone from Jesus' hand.
Anyone can make the choice to step opt of His hand.

The epitome of circular logic above aka a logical fallacy.

Actually, it is the logical fallacies of redefinition and of equivocation

 

[GodsGrace]

I used that to save "your story" of the scriptures. Whatever the scriptures have to say, they say of Christ.

All "stories" of scriptures begin and end with Him.

I might consider the relationship inferior (believers) to Superior, Him. Or "subjective" (us) to Objective, Him.

I know my place in the scheme of things. Very very small and getting progressively smaller. Hence, my posting name.

Sola, yes. I don't buy the story of any man by comparisons. We have His Word for our sights and thoughts. Which I wouldn't trade for any person's story. Not even my own.

Bringing every 'thought' captive is an interesting task. And one I quite enjoy. I have learned from many other believers. Some good, some bad. God tends to put believers in your way to bring understandings, when needed, or to provide contrast to show things that are not so cool.


Well of course. I've had my nose buried in scriptures for decades. His Word, ALL of it, is an entire JOY to me, personally. There is a book hidden in the book that few will find. I'm still quite engaged in reading that one. I LOVE studies of allegories/parables/spiritual associations. That is my deepest passion. And that is where the scriptures are VEILED to flesh eyes. Yes, only the Holy Spirit can bring illumination for that book. And there are very certain "written rules of engagement" that a believer MUST be brought through in order to "see it." Blockades I might call them.

Well, let's see? Which rule would I look at first? Perhaps because we do not really love one another as we are commanded? That would be number 1 on the list. Secondly, most fail miserably in trying to understand JUDGMENTS. So, yeah, that's it in a nutshell. There are TWO hands required. Gods Right Hand and His Left Hand. Love and Judgment.

Over time a believer usually gets either good at both, or gets off balance for awhile. Very common.

There is a Spiritual Reason that the Israelites went straight down the middle of the Red Sea, swaying neither to the left hand or to the right hand. And this is a spiritual methodology that a believer can come to understand. Studies of scripture, specifically of the "right and left" hand are considerable.

I might even term Jesus as King of the Middle Ground.

Exodus 14:22
And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

Numbers 22:26
And the angel of the Lord went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.

So, yeah, God does have patterns and RULES to follow.


The Holy Spirit operates the same way. He is for us as believers AND simultaneously against the evil present with us, the sin dwelling in our sorry hides of flesh. One of the hardest rules is to understand the adverse workings of the Holy Spirit. It is a pitiful place to go to. But I understand this part as well as I care to.

God in Christ is both FRIEND and FOE. Savior AND Destroyer.

So, yeah, I have a relationship with the King of the Middle Ground. That would be Christ IN me. Literally in my MIDST. Dividing ME from my adversaries in the flesh.

I don't sit under any liar. Can't do it. The Holy Spirit has forbidden me to do so.

You will NOT find honest scriptural handlers in the systems of MAN. That much is certain in today's world. No one would listen. No, not one. And Paul warned us about that a long long time ago. Acts 20:29.

I refuse to sit under "sheep killers."

Never said He was. I draw no boundaries around God in Christ. He Is Endless Objectivity with all subjectivity under His Rule. I am His "subject." I know my place. It is the place of subservience.

I'm not interested in having 'my will.' All True Freedom is only IN HIM. There is no other FREEDOM.

Smaller,
The Apostles were sheep killers? They were the first teachers.
You deny all teachers? I guess you're above them and prefer your own studies and beliefs.
This might be why you're reading that book within a book.
I sure hope you're not referring to all those times Jesus said that only those with ears will hear - because you're not the only one able to hear His words.

But, once again, my question has not been answered.

Here it is again:

Question: What are Christ's eternal values?

It's in my post no. 87 - answering your post no. 61.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
The Apostles were sheep killers.

Ridiculous claim. I don't listen to sheep killers.

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

 

[smaller]

Actually, it is the logical fallacies of redefinition and of equivocation

We hear this type of logical fallacy in every freewill camp. Christ NEVER leaves the believers but they can leave Him. And they, in their own supposed "freewill" mind can not even see how illogical such a claim is.

Never leave is never leave. Never. There is no "escape hatch" for any believer.

Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

 

[GodsGrace]

Ridiculous claim. I don't listen to sheep killers.

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Wait.
Wasn't there a question mark after:
The Apostles were sheep killers.

Misunderstanding once again.

And you still didn't answer my question.

You either cannot or do not wish to.

Message received.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Ephesians 6:18
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

There IS a spirit of SLUMBER and works of darkness for EVERY believer to continually CAST OFF.

Romans 13:
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Killing is a LUST of DARKNESS in the flesh.

Entering into HIS LOVE a believer will never ever condemn another believer to eternal torture. Ever.

Why? Because we ALL have issues to FIGHT ourselves, in our OWN FLESH. Being an eternal torture promoter of other believers is not beneficial sight.

This intention only pours gas on our own flesh problems.

Yet how many of us, day after day, sit under such notions? And deny that we ourselves must cast off works of darkness, must AWAKEN out of our own SLUMBER?

Love one another is the ONLY rule Jesus gave us to follow.

And we BUTCHER it everyday.

IF we need to engage JUDGMENT, let's judge our own flesh honestly, FIRST. We should all find plenty of room to see adversity and judgments in our own sorry hides.

 

[GodsGrace]

Last thing.
Hebrews 12:25
This is why a church is important. It helps you to understand scripture and not pull out verses.
Especially when they DON'T prove your position.

W

 

[smaller]

Wait.
Wasn't there a question mark after:
The Apostles were sheep killers.

Misunderstanding once again.

And you still didn't answer my question.

You either cannot or do not wish to.

The question was answered. You just didn't see it.

Jesus gave HIS LIFE for the Sheep. You can claim they didn't get it. You can claim they can walk away from HIS HOLD from which there is NO escape.

I'll refuse that sight.

John 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm dense sometimes, Smaller. I've said this a few times here.
Like, if you had started your reply with my question, instead of posting scripture, it would have helped me. Really.
So Christ's eternal value is that He's the good shepherd?

W

 

[smaller]

Last thing.
Hebrews 12:25
This is why a church is important. It helps you to understand scripture and not pull out verses.
Especially when they DON'T prove your position.

W

You can also claim you can ESCAPE Jesus by not listening.

There is no escape.

Believers who think they sauntered off by their freewill will have a quick comeuppance the instant they DIE.

Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

We are ALL going to find ourselves in THE JUDGMENT SEAT, regardless.

 

[GodsGrace]

You can also claim you can ESCAPE Jesus by not listening.

There is no escape.

Believers who think they sauntered off by their freewill will have a quick comeuppance the instant they DIE.

Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

We are ALL going to find ourselves in THE JUDGMENT SEAT, regardless.

IF WE TURN AWAY...

Are you agreeing with me that we CAN turn away??

And was I right in my understanding of what you said Christ's eternal value is?

W

 

[smaller]

The very FIRST THING that will be torched from a believers mind/heart at the JUDGMENT OF WORK will be "our own evil conscience."

Everything we EVER did under that influence is going to get FLAME ON.

The evil conscience of NO believer will be getting past the Pearly Gates.

1 Corinthians 3:
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Wood, hay and stubble are the workings that will not make it through this judgment.

Wood, hay and stubble are all association terms for works of the flesh. And we are all going to have some flaming.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:

but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Any believer who has fallen in the flesh, in the sin of unbelief, will have that GONE at this point of impact.

And they will find out for a surety, that there WAS no escape.

 

[GodsGrace]

The very FIRST THING that will be torched from a believers mind/heart at the JUDGMENT OF WORK will be "our own evil conscience."

Everything we EVER did under that influence is going to get FLAME ON.

The evil conscience of NO believer will be getting past the Pearly Gates.

1 Corinthians 3:
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Wood, hay and stubble are the workings that will not make it through this judgment.

Wood, hay and stubble are all association terms for works of the flesh. And we are all going to have some flaming.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:

but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Any believer who has fallen in the flesh, in the sin of unbelief, will have that GONE at this point of impact.

And they will find out for a surety, that there WAS no escape.

Smaller
You sound upset. I'm really sorry. Really.

W

 

[smaller]

Smaller
You sound upset. I'm really sorry. Really.

W

Don't have a clue why you might hear that. I am totally delighted by Gods Life.

I already know that anyone who has called upon Him will not escape. Their flesh works WILL however be lost.

I might suggest that good building is always in order for reward. Trying to eternally destroy other believers on any basis, in whom Christ IS, is entirely futile.

But there is a working in everyone who reads this that WILL fear.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have to leave after this Smaller.
I wish you'd be more clear.
Are you saying I'm trying to destroy you??
I'm sorry if you think this. I was trying to get at what you meant by something.
I do think it's a bad idea to read scripture all by one's self.
Sometimes you post scripture that doesn't make your point and I was trying to clear up what you believed to be Jesus eternal value. Which I'm still not sure what it is - but it's okay.

Lata...

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Does anyone think they really want to be found by Christ condemning another believer and justifying themselves?

I might think we'd turn attentions to our own works of darkness, to cast them OFF, and to awaken to LOVE of our brethren, in the here and now.

We are, after all is said and done, going to be stuck with each others for an immeasurable time.

I'm kind glad that the FIRE will sort out what needs to be lost in order to do so.

I hope you all realize that in trying to perpetually toss each others in hell over every little picky thing is not going to work out well for any believer. You're standing in the wrong place.

IF we take a stand in judgment upon our own sorry hides in the here and now, we'd maybe stop doing that?

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Can any of us really love one another when standing on each others necks in judgments?

I don't think so.

IF any really want judgment so bad, let's have a look at our own flesh, and, you know, see what the problems really are.

Any takers? Any honest folk want to look at the sin dwelling in their own flesh? Romans 7:17-20

How about every sin thought you ever had? Romans 7:7-13.

How about evil present with us? Romans 7:21.

How about our own evil conscience? Heb. 10:22

How about every last one of our own lusts, temptations, wicked desires, strife, and on and on it goes?

At SOME POINT a few will realize that the battle ground is what we WALK IN. It's NOT the "other guy."

When Jesus said bring His enemies before Him and SLAY them, he was talking to US about the workings of evil and of the workings of our adversary in our own sorry hides.

Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

 

[smaller]

I have to leave after this Smaller.
I wish you'd be more clear.

Wondering

Believers should try to take an accurate account of their own flesh. Those who don't can't and won't see, ever.

There is a very certain form of spiritual blindness in the flesh, where even believers can not hear or see because they fail to see that our own flesh is contrary to the Spirit and against the Spirit. Gal. 5:17

Every believer that likes to paint themselves up otherwise is, sorry, just a common hypocrite in the flesh. Not speaking to anyone in this personally.

The flesh of all believers is the same in this regards.

And all the ills we see on other believers, is in fact also our OWN problem.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

John 10:27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. NASV

If you can lose your salvation..how do you explain away the above verse?

John 15 says quite a bit, that can be both support and argument against the idea of once saved, always and eternally saved. John 15:16 goes further in the instance of being saved, by adding that we didn't choose Jesus, but Jesus chose us. So if we can't lose our salvation, then it can be said we've always had it, if we've ever had it.

(Arguably though, it could be argued that parts of Jesus's teachings were meant for just the audience that He was speaking to, so Jesus chose the 12 desciples, and possibly others throughout history. If that logic holds then some can be chosen to be Christians and saved, and some chose to be Christian and be saved. I don't know what to say good or bad to those types of arguments.)

On the other hand though, Jesus's words say repeatedly in John 15, that if we remain in Jesus, He will remain in us. He also says that no fruit can come from us unless we remain in Jesus, the true vine. And also that if we beer no fruit, God will remove us like a branch is removed from a vine. So while there is great comfort in John 10:27, I think John 15:1-8 serves as a message to not take lightly our salvation. Stay in Jesus, or risk losing Him. (If that's how the verses are meant.). And also as an encouragement. God is on our side on this, and wants us to bear much fruit.

 

[smaller]

Psalm 37:28
For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

 

[Jim Parker]

I think John 15:1-8 serves as a message to not take lightly our salvation. Stay in Jesus, or risk losing Him. (If that's how the verses are meant.).

That is exactly how it is meant.

iakov the fool