Once Saved, Always Saved?

[RichardBurger]

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

The unbelief mentioned in these verses is unbelief in the cross work of Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with sins of the flesh. The sin being considered is the sin of unbelief and it can be tied back to John 3:16-18.

 

[Mysteryman]

quote: beardedad

There is not one person on this earth that does not sin. If you say you do not then you are lying. I sin everyone sins at one time or another.

The trouble with you is that you are judging after the flesh and the flesh is dead. We are commanded not to do that! You have not reckoned yourself to be dead to sin, Romans 6:11.

I John 3:9, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remainethin him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

We are the body of Christ! Does the body of Christ sin? God forbid, for if we make ourselves out to be sinners is Christ the minister of sin? I think not, Gal 2:17.

You must not judge after the flesh, if you do then you will never understand our glorious redemption and you will condemn yourself in the day of judgment because you do not believe in the works of Christ.

Every Christian wants to be like Christ. Well, how was he? Jesus speaking to the Pharisees: Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.John 8:15.

And so to be like Christ we must walk in the spirit, for to be carnally minded (judging after the flesh) is death.

Hi olympia

I John 3:9 is talking about your seed of Christ in you that does not sin. Your flesh can still sin, but your seed of Christ in you can not.

The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. In first John, his epistles, we read, if any man says he does not have sin, , he deceives himself and the truth is not in him. - I John 1:8

We need to understand the flesh and the Spirit side of understanding. We tend to group them together and say that the flesh can not sin because we are dead in Christ. It is true that we are to render our flesh as being dead. That comes about within the renewed mind. But we all will sin and fall short of the glory of God.

That is why in I John 2:1 when we have sinned, we have an advocte with the Father, Jesus Christ. We can confess our sins, and then we will be back into a righteous state once again.

Bless

 

[olympia]

Hi MM,

[quote: mysteryman]I John 3:9 is talking about your seed of Christ in you that does not sin. Your flesh can still sin, but your seed of Christ in you can not.

The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. In first John, his epistles, we read, if any man says he does not have sin, , he deceives himself and the truth is not in him. - I John 1:8

We need to understand the flesh and the Spirit side of understanding. We tend to group them together and say that the flesh can not sin because we are dead in Christ. It is true that we are to render our flesh as being dead. That comes about within the renewed mind. But we all will sin and fall short of the glory of God.

That is why in I John 2:1 when we have sinned, we have an advocte with the Father, Jesus Christ. We can confess our sins, and then we will be back into a righteous state once again.

[/quote]I do not group the spirit and the flesh together. I do not see the flesh at all in this matter of sin. My mind has been renewed to the new man; the spiritual man and and the deed of the flesh are dead.

Under the Law of Moses all sinned and came short of the glory of God, but we are no longer under the Law of sin and death.

Our advocate with the Father is Jesus Christ the righteous and He is now seated and his work is finished.

Romans Chapter 7 clearly tells us that we have been delievered from the wretched man of sin by the works of Jesus Christ :Romans 7:24, "O wretched man that I am (under the Law) who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God (the law of the spirit); but with the flesh the law of sin.

I am not in the flesh, but in the spirit.

I died with Christ; Romans 6:7-8, "For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him"

In Christ

 

[seekandlisten]

This OSAS myth really needs to be put to rest. The bible blatantly refutes this doctrine.

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:20

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Matthew 10:22

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Luke 10:25-28

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Romans 2:13

"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Hebrews 5:8, 9

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12

"Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" James 2:5

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" 1 Peter 4:17, 18

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5

"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Revelation 3:11

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." Revelation 21:7

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." 1 John 3:2-3

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." 1 John 3:7

Explain to me how one tosses away all this scripture in support of this 'easy way out' doctrine?? If you need more references against such doctrine I will be more than happy to provide. There is no scriptural basis for this doctrine except by twisting scripture to meet one's own desires.

An article titled with security comes responsibility.

http://www.generationchrist.net/security1.html

cheers

 

[glorydaz]

This OSAS myth really needs to be put to rest. The bible blatantly refutes this doctrine.

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:20

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Matthew 10:22

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Luke 10:25-28

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Romans 2:13

"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Hebrews 5:8, 9

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12

"Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" James 2:5

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" 1 Peter 4:17, 18

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5

"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Revelation 3:11

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." Revelation 21:7

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." 1 John 3:2-3

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." 1 John 3:7

Explain to me how one tosses away all this scripture in support of this 'easy way out' doctrine?? If you need more references against such doctrine I will be more than happy to provide. There is no scriptural basis for this doctrine except by twisting scripture to meet one's own desires.

An article titled with security comes responsibility.

http://www.generationchrist.net/security1.html

cheers

Nothing you've posted refutes we are washed in the blood of Christ and His righteousness is imputed to those who have born again of the Spirit. Our righteousness does exceed the scribes and pharisees because it's Christ's. I'm not sure why people think they can toss out a bunch of verses they obviously don't understand to attempt to put to rest something else they don't understand. :biglaugh

 

[glorydaz]

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

The unbelief mentioned in these verses is unbelief in the cross work of Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with sins of the flesh. The sin being considered is the sin of unbelief and it can be tied back to John 3:16-18.

Praise the Lord...some still have eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote olympia : "Our advocate with the Father is Jesus Christ the righteous and He is now seated and his work is finished. "

Hi olympia

If you say you do not sin , thus saying you will not sin, thus saying you will not have a need for an advocate !

Then why does the Word tell us that we have a need for an advocate ?

Lets read together I John 2:1 - "My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

 

[glorydaz]

olympia wrote:

When you believe righteousness is imputed to you and you are not ashamed to say so. How do you tell the difference between a believer and a non-believer? The believer believes with his heart that he is righteous and the non-believer confesses he is a sinner. It is as simple as that.

[quote:34gtbckf]I think I understand what you're saying, and I agree Christ's righteousness has been imputed to those of us who are justified by faith. But, I don't think the non-believer confesses he is a sinner.

First of all every man; the world has been reconciled (justified) to God, 2 Cor 5:19 and so believing is the only thing required to be imputed righteousness. What to believe? That sin in the flesh has forgiven every man.

Second of all the world openly confesses that they are a sinner and sadly so do the churches.

Third, a Christian better not stand before God and say he is a 'poor old sinner saved by Grace', because he has just confessed that he does not believe Christ forgave the world of sin. You cannot be a sinner and be righteous at the same time, that is a major contradiction, we are either righteous or a sinner, one of the two.[/quote:34gtbckf]
No, that's not true. In the first place, the world does not openly confess they are sinners. They think they're just fine. Sin is something only those who know God can understand. Sin is rebellion against God or coming short of His glory. That is not a concern of the unsaved.

Paul, himself, said he was the chiefest of sinners.
We don't walk in the world of denial...claiming something that is not realized in practice but is true positionally. Satan was defeated at the cross, but he still roams the earth seeking whom he may devour. We are seated in heavenly places, but our body still resides on this earth. We are counted as righteous because of the work on the cross, but if we claim we don't sin, we are liars.

 

[watchman F]

[quote="watchman F":12n0hx6a]

I can't believe people are still arguing over something so simple. Did or didn’t Jesus die on the cross for our sins? If he did and as the Bible says it is a gift given freely to us, the only thing is that we accept this gift and if you accepted it then why worry.

What if I want to give it back or throw it away? Are you saying God will not allow this?

You can't throw it away. If Christ paid for our sins on the cross and we have the capability of throwing it away and in so doing we can still end up in hell for our sins then this means that God is not just nor is he righteous. The blood of Christ purchased us and we are His possession.[/quote:12n0hx6a]So you are an universalist. You think every person on Earth will be saved? Or do you think as you put it, God is unjust and unrighteous, seeing as some people end up in Hell even though Christ paid the price for their sins?

 

[watchman F]

I can't believe people are still arguing over something so simple. Did or didn’t Jesus die on the cross for our sins? If he did and as the Bible says it is a gift given freely to us, the only thing is that we accept this gift and if you accepted it then why worry.

What if I want to give it back or throw it away? Are you saying God will not allow this?

Then you were not his to begain with. Once you have something like this you don't want to throw it away or give it back. It is the devil that makes us doubt our salvation. Once you understand this you don't worry about losing it you try to serve God better but you know that you are going to make mistakes because of our human nature. Just don't sweat it. It will alll come out in the white wash.

Actually i am much more secure in my salvation than you because i know i have yet to attain therefore I keep moving forward toward the prize.

Philippians 3
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 

[glorydaz]

I touched on this topic in my last podcast, and here is how I see it: Our justification is only available via Jesus' death on the cross. It made available to us this grace that we accept by faith. If someone accepts this grace by making a commitment to the renewal of our mind, it's done... sealed. I don't subscribe to the position of irresistible grace, so in my world view it is a decision.

The tricky part is defining at which point that the Christian goes from "trying on" Christianity (as one does with a shirt at the store) to commitment (buying and wearing the shirt). I say tricky because there is a possibility of false commitment. Take this scenario as an example:

A child is raised in a Christian home. He goes to church and professes his belief in God to his parents. As a teenager, he rejects God because he believes that it's superstition. If it isn't provable with science, he doesn't believe it. Then as a young adult, he finds a girlfriend who is Christian and she takes him to services. His whole attitude changes, and he is "on fire" for God... does an altar call, and verbally commits to give his life over to Jesus. He is full of joy, and gives testimony all over town for about a year, then he and the girl break up. He still goes to church and identifies himself as a Christian, but the fire is fading. Doubt creeps in, and he slowly falls back into a life "of the world". Decades go by, and has become very jaded about the church and stops going. He says that he believes in God, but that religious people are a bunch of hypocrites. He never reads the Bible, hasn't prayed in 10 years, and lives a life of selfish pleasure. During his 40s, a neighbor moves in and they often have talks about the neighbor's faith. After a few months, our guy feels the stirring of the Holy Spirit. Only now does he understand how much he needs God in his life, but he knows it means he'll have to repent of his sins and change some of the ways he lives his life. At this crossroads, he goes "all in", and allows the Holy Spirit to guide him. He doesn't change overnight, but his Sanctification starts in earnest, and goes on until his death.

The way I see it, this guy's life was a series of starts, stops, and false commitments based on incomplete information, or an immature sense of wisdom. As a young adult, he was quite sure he was "saved", but his true sanctification process had not started, because his verbal commitment has shallow roots. This often happens when someone is pressured into giving their life to God. I also believe it is wrong to pressure young children "to be saved" and obsess about their status. They should be taught the foundation, but can only make a true commitment when they get older.

In my opinion, the term "saved" is misunderstood because we live in linear time and God doesn't. God knows whether each one of us is saved already, but we cannot ever know for sure if another person is saved. If the Holy Spirit allows, we will have a confidence and peace in our own salvation, but the real question a Christian should ask is "has my true preparation (aka Sanctification) begun?". Of course it's good to feel confident that you are on God's salvation list, but don't let that lead to complacency. Your job... your purpose in life is to accept God's grace and allow the Holy Spirit to renew your mind so you can bear fruit on Earth and move closer to what God wants you to be when Haven's doors are opened to you.

There you have it.

 

[watchman F]

This OSAS myth really needs to be put to rest. The bible blatantly refutes this doctrine.

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!!!!!

 

[glorydaz]

[quote="archangel_300":1jelkm5a]
You can't throw it away. If Christ paid for our sins on the cross and we have the capability of throwing it away and in so doing we can still end up in hell for our sins then this means that God is not just nor is he righteous. The blood of Christ purchased us and we are His possession.

So you are an universalist. You think every person on Earth will be saved? Or do you think as you put it, God is unjust and unrighteous, seeing as some people end up in Hell even though Christ paid the price for their sins?[/quote:1jelkm5a]
I don't think it's necessary to twist what archangel has said.
If God didn't honor the blood, then He would be unjust and unrighteous.
We know the free gift is offered to all men.
In no way does it require God to accept man without the covering of the blood.

 

[Caroline H]

Attitudes here are disgusting. Locked thread pending staff review.