once saved always saved

[Eugene]

JF,
A study of James is called for in the answer to this one. If a person is saved they are saved unto Good Works, not evil. If a person is saved they cannot deny Jesus. Like my daughter when her husband passed over, a person can e angry with a decision of God, she ran down the street screaming at Fred and at God for the injustice she felt but she wasn't denying God the right, she was angry at the trial imposed. She has since fallen on her knees and repented of her anger and is teaching.

She never rebuked God of His right to do as He will but she was cut to the heart of the trial and needed time to adjust to living with her mon and dad again.

Dear Brother @th1b.taylor, the problem is that many do not understand the context of James in that God does save the believer, but shows that the believer has little faith portrayed without works of righteousness. This is especially illustrated in Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them; God knows us because we have believed on Jesus.

Regardless of how some believe they keep themselves, we remain God’s creation from beginning to end, else we could accuse his work in us of being of little effect. Many may see one like your daughter and accuse her when in the fire of trial, but God was not finished with her at that point, and she may be the very one that might bring an alabaster box to glorify our Lord. A former pastor that was still preaching four different services per week at ninety-four years of age once said: if you haven’t got mad at God, you haven’t traveled very far with Him. He said he had quit preaching several times.

 

[Eugene]

Jesus doesn't name any names of the soil in the parable of the sower soil #2. I'm not prepared to call Jesus a liar and deceiver for saying there are those types of soil out there when there really aren't any and never will be.


I see where Moses had a bad hair day in the faith, not where he abandoned the faith and made tracks back to Egypt. This is the difference that so many people fail to acknowledge in this subject. There is weakness and doubt within the faith. Then there is the decision to bail out of the faith altogether.


Unconfessed sin? Only if you have not grown to the point of accountability concerning that sin.

Lack of faith? Good Lord, no. If it did, we'd all be lost.

Non-belief? Of course. Trusting in Christ is the very condition for being saved. You can't show up to collect the lotto winnings if you don't hold on to the winning ticket (and surely no one would argue that you really did once have that ticket in your possession).



The REASON you didn't do this or that, and did that over there is why, or why not, you may show up at the Judgment minus the winning lotto ticket you once possessed. You don't lose it for struggling with the growing pains of the faith. You lose it for foolishly exiting the faith altogether, either through careless indifference for the free gift (like the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18) or outright contempt for God's forgiveness.



Where is unbelief in this list that so many claim is there?

As iLove pointed out in scripture--the man who is living in a lifestyle of sin is not born again. Yet so many make the claim that you can live that lifestyle and still think you're born again and will be saved on the Day of Wrath no matter what (if I could just think of that acronym for that again...).

If Jesus our Judge and Savior won't erase our name from the book of life (Rev 3:5), for any reason (Jn 6:37), just what is going to condemn you? Is there another criterion for entering eternity win Christ?

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Brother Jethro Bodine, are you born or God? If so does His seed remain in you? I believe God has already proven how far He is willing to do for us without our fearing destruction. I will say that I have seen many remaining in the pigpen for a big part of their lives.

 

[Willie T]

Sorry, but I just can't go with using the example of running down the road, shouting at God.... THEN making it all OK, because you decide to do a "repent". Had a car hit the person while they were still running down the road, shouting, then you have just done what the CoC did all the time. You introduced OUR work (of a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th 6th, or 7th act of repentance) to get you "back in the fold". You are actually saying that, "Yes, they were out from under God's umbrella of protection during that time, and what got them "right" again was repenting.

So, if a car hit them during that time... BEFORE they could "repent"??????

I can't buy this faulty thinking at all.

I have done the "shouting" before. I imagine most of us have. But, I am not talking about our temper tantrums, because we were mad at Daddy. Those take NO "repentance", because we never really turned our backs on God. We never changed our mind about who God is ("repented" about believing in God.), so we were, during the entire rant... even if it lasted months... STILL very aware of God, and our relationship with Him.

But I have seen former followers who seemingly, because none of us can REALLY know... (despite our claims of being endowed with such "discernment")... went to their graves hating God for something that happened in their lives. Those people, I have to believe were allowed to have the eternal future their stubborn pride demanded.

<SIDE NOTE> My very wise wife just glanced at some of this thread, and said: "Why are you doing that?" "You know what will eventually be the STANDARD answer given about this."............. "Well, they were never 'saved' in the first place."

And, she's right. That always ends up being our rather inadequate cop-out.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Sorry, but I just can't go with using the example of running down the road, shouting at God.... THEN making it all OK, because you decide to do a "repent". Had a car hit the person while they were still running down the road, shouting, then you have just done what the CoC did all the time. You introduced OUR work (of a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th 6th, or 7th act of repentance) to get you "back in the fold". You are actually saying that, "Yes, they were out from under God's umbrella of protection during that time, and what got them "right" again was repenting.

So, if a car hit them during that time... BEFORE they could "repent"??????

I can't buy this faulty thinking at all.

I have done the "shouting" before. I imagine most of us have. But, I am not talking about our temper tantrums, because we were mad at Daddy. Those take NO "repentance", because we never really turned our backs on God. We never changed our mind about who God is ("repented" about believing in God.), so we were, during the entire rant... even if it lasted months... STILL very aware of God, and our relationship with Him.

But I have seen former followers who seemingly, because none of us can REALLY know... (despite our claims of being endowed with such "discernment")... went to their graves hating God for something that happened in their lives. Those people, I have to believe were allowed to have the eternal future their stubborn pride demanded.

<SIDE NOTE> My very wise wife just glanced at some of this thread, and said: "Why are you doing that?" "You know what will eventually be the STANDARD answer given about this."............. "Well, they were never 'saved' in the first place."

And, she's right. That always ends up being our rather inadequate cop-out.

Not knowing if one is saved creates fear, the fear of losing one's salvation.
I'm not talking about people who walk away from God, I'm talking about people who believe but still have no assurance that they will make it to heaven in the end.
This is fear.

1 John 4:16-18;
"...God is love. Whoever lives in love, lives in God, and God in them. This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love".

 

[th1b.taylor]

But I have seen former followers who seemingly, because none of us can REALLY know... (despite our claims of being endowed with such "discernment")... went to their graves hating God for something that happened in their lives. Those people, I have to believe were allowed to have the eternal future their stubborn pride demanded.

<SIDE NOTE> My very wise wife just glanced at some of this thread, and said: "Why are you doing that?" "You know what will eventually be the STANDARD answer given about this."............. "Well, they were never 'saved' in the first place."

And, she's right. That always ends up being our rather inadequate cop-out.

Well, guess what, before I read your young ladies remake, my answer was and my answer is, "they were pretenders and were never saved in the first place." Just as Jesus taught us we must judge their fruits and if fruit looks and smells rotten, uhhh, it's rotten and in this case was one that Jesus will say to, "I never knew you." We simply need to place all of our faith in that one pail, leaving all others empty.

 

[JLB]

Eugene said -

All I would have to do is read that one person believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, afterwards regretted it and wanted to go to hell instead; our minds don't seem to function in that manner.

What we do find is the language of those who turned away from Christ under the persecution and threat of death, choosing to avoid an earthly suffering.

This is exactly the context that Jesus teaches.

Some whose faith in Christ and the kingdom to come, became irrelevant in the face of personal discomfort, suffering of torture and death.

A very real scenario for today, only then it was the religion of Judaism that persecuted the saints unto death.


Today it is Islam.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13 NKJV


12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. Luke 8:12-13 NIV


12 The seeds along the path are those who have heard. Then the Devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the seeds on the rock are those who, when they hear, welcome the word with joy. Having no root, these believe for a while and depart in a time of testing. Luke 8:12-13 HCS


Verse 12 gives the key for salvation - ...lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe = Saved

Verse 13 clearly shows these in this group believed for a while, which means they were saved for a while.


They departed from the living God in the face of persecution.


This is the exact context in which the writer of Hebrews staes this very truth for us to learn from.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


Believe for a while = saved for a while.


JLB

 

[reba]

<SIDE NOTE> My very wise wife just glanced at some of this thread, and said: "Why are you doing that?" "You know what will eventually be the STANDARD answer given about this."............. "Well, they were never 'saved' in the first place."

This is one of the main reasons OSAS doesn't ring true to me...

 

[Willie T]

You guys are something else. You believe you are saved, don't you? So do I. And, more than likely, so did most anyone who might have eventually turned their back on God for whatever reason.

I guess what I hear you saying is that should you end up in those same dire straits, (God forbid!), then we wiil, thereby, know that you were "pretenders", (That is the way I think one of you expressed it.), all along. That is what you said, right?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You guys are something else. You believe you are saved, don't you? So do I. And, more than likely, so did most anyone who might have eventually turned their back on God for whatever reason.

I guess what I hear you saying is that should you end up in those same dire straits, (God forbid!), then we wiil, thereby, know that you were "pretenders", (That is the way I think one of you expressed it.), all along. That is what you said, right?

How can you believe you are saved if you also believe you can lose your salvation?
Isn't that a contradiction?
Or do I not understand the meaning of contradiction?

 

[Willie T]

How can you believe you are saved if you also believe you can lose your salvation?
Isn't that a contradiction?
Or do I not understand the meaning of contradiction?

I never even once said "lose" it. I said turn your back on it, and deny God's love (or whatever they might be thinking)

I thoroughly Believe what the Bible says...... that nothing and no one can remove us from God's hand when that is where we want to be. But I cannot believe much of the "extras" people choose to add to what the Bible says.

 

[JLB]

How can you believe you are saved if you also believe you can lose your salvation?
Isn't that a contradiction?
Or do I not understand the meaning of contradiction?

I think some may be confused about this doctrine, because of the way some translations use the word "fall away" and others use "turn away" or "depart from".

Fall away tends to seem to mean that you "trip and fall", almost as if by accident, like I "lost" my keys because I was distracted.

Then behind that mindset we hear, "how can a God of Love" throw someone into hell for making a mistake.


This is not at all what this phrase means, fall away or turn away, or depart from.

It is a conscious decision to act upon ones own free will to choose.

This is where the battle lies, this is where the Enemy brings to bear his devises to act upon a persons volition and will to make a choice.


Here is a relevant question for today's modern scenario.


If a born again Christian is taken hostage by an Islamic Extremist and threatened with death or torture if they don't turn away from Christ and confess Allah as Lord, will they still be saved?


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I never even once said "lose" it. I said turn your back on it, and deny God's love (or whatever they might be thinking)

I thoroughly Believe what the Bible says...... that nothing and no one can remove us from God's hand when that is where we want to be. But I cannot believe much of the "extras" people choose to add to what the Bible says.

Willie, the OP says once saved always saved, do you believe it?
I can't tell by what you've said in this thread where you stand on this issue.

 

[Willie T]

Willie, the OP says once saved always saved, do you believe it?
I can't tell by what you've said in this thread where you stand on this issue.

"Once Rich, Always Rich"................... UNLESS YOU CHOOSE to throw your money in a dumpster somewhere.

Is there a verse or two you honestly feel say OSAS?

 

[reba]

Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Does "any man" include ones self?

this topic makes me feel like a ping pong ball

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

"Once Rich, Always Rich"................... UNLESS YOU CHOOSE to throw your money in a dumpster somewhere.

Is there a verse or two you honestly feel say OSAS?

You know it's a waste of time to go there.
I've quoted so many passages on this, most of which everyone has ignored because they can't answer them.

 

[Willie T]

Well, Reba, can a person "pluck" themselves from a location...... or do they have to be "plucked" by someone else?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Does "any man" include ones self?

this topic makes me feel like a ping pong ball

Willie T., Allen, and Reba

 

[Deborah13]

Well, Reba, can a person "pluck" themselves from a location...... or do they have to be "plucked" by someone else?

Well, this is what I was indoctrinated in......
No one can pluck you out of God's hand but you can jump out.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If Jesus our Judge and Savior won't erase our name from the book of life (Rev 3:5), for any reason (Jn 6:37), just what is going to condemn you?

What will condemn you? Unbelief--a turning away from the blood that sanctified you. The blood of Christ can not save you on the day wrath if you do not have the blood of Christ applied to you through faith on that day.

Is there another criterion for entering eternity win Christ?

Faith. That has always been the criterion. You can't show up at the Judgment without it. You have to hang onto it.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
[...]
believe God has already proven how far He is willing to do for us without our fearing destruction.
I will say that I have seen many remaining in the pigpen for a big part of their lives.

He says right in the passage you are quoting that you can't live in a lifestyle of sin and be saved, because born again people don't do that. But you are sure you can live in that lifestyle of sin and still be saved on the Day of Wrath, right? At the very least, OSAS should be acknowledging that you can not backslide into a lifestyle of sin and expect to be saved on the Day of Wrath.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

"...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning" (1 john 2:24 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

<SIDE NOTE> My very wise wife just glanced at some of this thread, and said: "Why are you doing that?" "You know what will eventually be the STANDARD answer given about this."............. "Well, they were never 'saved' in the first place."

And, she's right. That always ends up being our rather inadequate cop-out.

I agree. Our Catholic brethren made me see how insecure this supposedly secure teaching of OSAS is--but non-OSAS is the doctrine that gets accused of being insecure.

OSAS can't know if they are truly save or not until the time in which they might fail and prove they're not saved is over. Meanwhile, non-OSAS says everyone who has faith in this moment is saved and holding the winning lotto ticket--faith being the security of that salvation. As long as you cling to your faith you are secure in your salvation.

OSAS won't know if it truly had the faith that secures salvation until their time of testing in this life to see if they do is over. That's not very secure. You never know if a failure tomorrow will show what you think is your saving faith today was actually false.