once saved always saved

[Jethro Bodine]

Well, this is what I was indoctrinated in......
No one can pluck you out of God's hand but you can jump out.

I wish more people had been indoctrinated in this truth.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I agree. Our Catholic brethren made me see how insecure this supposedly secure teaching of OSAS is--but non-OSAS is the doctrine that gets accused of being insecure.

OSAS can't know if they are truly save or not until the time in which they might fail and prove they're not saved is over. Meanwhile, non-OSAS says everyone who has faith in this moment is saved and holding the winning lotto ticket--faith being the security of that salvation. As long as you cling to your faith you are secure in your salvation.

OSAS won't know if it truly had the faith that secures salvation until their time of testing in this life to see if they do is over. That's not very secure. You never know if a failure tomorrow will show what you think is your saving faith today was actually false.

Confusion reigns on the forum.

 

[Deborah13]

I wish more people had been indoctrinated in this truth.

I don't entirely dismiss that doctrine. But there is a real danger to the saved in that doctrine.
It's says that what YOU do on a daily bases determines your salvation. It says that God is not holding tightly on to you. That He is the kind of Father who says to His young child, don't walk out in traffic, you will be killed and does not hold that child's hand tightly to keep them from dying. It says that you are pretty much on your own in life.
It says our Father is the Father that lays down the law. Don't ride your bike over that jump but when you do anyway and crash and burn, well you got what you deserve, pick yourself up, brush yourself off, cleanse your own wound, put healing cream and a bandage on it yourself.
It says that He is the Father who demands that only if you will agree with Him that He was right and you were wrong, before He will be a Father to you, again.
It implies that man can and should be a more loving and merciful father to his children then the Father is to His children.

 

[reba]

Confusion reigns on the forum.

Confusion reigns in life..

 

[reba]

Growing up in the nonOSAS doctrine taken to the max like getting 'saved' every week.... I do understand that we are more OSAS then i thought growing up.. 2 Only because of His shed Blood...

Johnny was a godly man on his death bed the get saved teaching over and over had him in great fear for his salvation....
My uncle 'saved ?" at one time.. cursed God on his death bed...

I do believe it is harder to get 'unsaved' then some may think/believe... We do not 'get' His great Grace.. I do believe we can not pray the 'sinners prayer' and live a life that does not portray the change of heart...

 

[Deborah13]

Growing up in the nonOSAS doctrine taken to the max like getting 'saved' every week.... I do understand that we are more OSAS then i thought growing up.. 2 Only because of His shed Blood...

Johnny was a godly man on his death bed the get saved teaching over and over had him in great fear for his salvation....
My uncle 'saved ?" at one time.. cursed God on his death bed...

I do believe it is harder to get 'unsaved' then some may think/believe... We do not 'get' His great Grace.. I do believe we can not pray the 'sinners prayer' and live a life that does not portray the change of heart...

I agree with you.
What I wonder about is can a person be a 'new creature, in Christ', have His divine nature indwelling them and not change? I don't know how that could be. It defies what scripture says a believer will, overtime, look like.
By the same token from my experience a person can say things with their mouth and make changes in their life in order to fit in where they desire to be accepted. But they are only on the outside for man to see, like going to church and even tithing but their heart is still black as coal.

 

[JLB]

Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Does "any man" include ones self?

this topic makes me feel like a ping pong ball

There is no doubt that Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe.

It is the believing part, which is our part to continue and to not believe "something else" such turning back to the law or believing another gospel or choosing to confess another Lord.

That is why Peter says:

The end of you faith is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9

If the beginning of our faith was the salvation of our soul, then OSAS would be true.


JLB

 

[iLOVE]

Confusion reigns on the forum.

The reason why the confusion:

Reason deals with facts.

Faith deals with truth.

Faith always supersede reason.

Facts are changeable.

Truth is unchangeable.

Jesus said in John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

 

[Eugene]

I do not know the source of this that I either possibly heard or read somewhere, but not all professors are possessors. For instance there are ten virgins come to the wedding, and only five wise ones possess the oil of qualification in their lamps.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

We seem to be having this debate about once every two or three weeks now.
Most of the same people giving the same responses with no change.
And the one who gets in the last word wins.

 

[JLB]

We seem to be having this debate about once every two or three weeks now.
Most of the same people giving the same responses with no change.
And the one who gets in the last word wins.

The one who endures to the end, is saved!


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The one who endures to the end, is saved!


JLB

Yes, good works, yes!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't entirely dismiss that doctrine. But there is a real danger to the saved in that doctrine.
It's says that what YOU do on a daily bases determines your salvation.

If you mean 'believing' then I agree. Works are just the way we can tell what you believe and to what extent in non-OSAS.

It says that God is not holding tightly on to you. That He is the kind of Father who says to His young child, don't walk out in traffic, you will be killed and does not hold that child's hand tightly to keep them from dying. It says that you are pretty much on your own in life.

Ha, not even remotely true. I'm convinced that you're going to have a real struggle on your hands if you try to wrestle free of God's loving kindness. Hebrews 12:4-11 NASB talks about the loving discipline God delivers to his kids. But it also talks about it only produces the fruit of righteousness in those who have been trained by it. Some simply won't learn a thing from getting knocked over the head.

It says our Father is the Father that lays down the law. Don't ride your bike over that jump but when you do anyway and crash and burn, well you got what you deserve, pick yourself up, brush yourself off, cleanse your own wound, put healing cream and a bandage on it yourself.

When you wake up from your fantasy of what non-OSAS let me know.

It says that He is the Father who demands that only if you will agree with Him that He was right and you were wrong, before He will be a Father to you, again.

If the thing that you see differently with God about is faith in Christ, then, yes, you're going to have to bend a lot in that department. A lot. There are no midway meeting points about that.

It implies that man can and should be a more loving and merciful father to his children then the Father is to His children.

Say what?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Confusion reigns on the forum.

You're a smart fellow. Do you want me to explain it to you?

The Catholics are right on this one. You will not know that your faith was genuine until you leave the body. In non-OSAS you know you are saved because you have faith in Christ, right now. If you fail in your faith in OSAS, it means you were never saved to begin with. In non-OSAS it means you stopped having faith.

Rollo, if you fail tomorrow that means what you thought was saving faith today will have turned out to not be saving faith. What a precarious place to be--never knowing if you're going to find out tomorrow that what you thought was so genuine today really wasn't. And OSAS is supposed to be the doctrine of surety and security?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Growing up in the nonOSAS doctrine taken to the max like getting 'saved' every week....

Yes, that is totally stupid. This is prolly the non-OSAS doctrine Deborah got indoctrinated in(?)

My uncle 'saved ?" at one time.. cursed God on his death bed...

Did he ever speak in tongues?

I do believe it is harder to get 'unsaved' then some may think/believe...

I firmly believe this. To suggest that God is an aloof Father in non-OSAS is to not understand what the Bible says about God disciplining his children.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You're a smart fellow. Do you want me to explain it to you?

The Catholics are right on this one. You will not know that your faith was genuine until you leave the body. In non-OSAS you know you are saved because you have faith in Christ, right now. If you fail in your faith in OSAS, it means you were never saved to begin with. In non-OSAS it means you stopped having faith.

Rollo, if you fail tomorrow that means what you thought was saving faith today will have turned out to not be saving faith. What a precarious place to be--never knowing if you're going to find out tomorrow that what you thought was so genuine today really wasn't. And OSAS is supposed to be the doctrine of surety and security?

If you don't believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, then you're the one who has doubts, not me.
It's amazing how people can confuse themselves by not sticking to the truth.
The truth hasn't changed, just some people change their thinking about what the truth is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree with you.
What I wonder about is can a person be a 'new creature, in Christ', have His divine nature indwelling them and not change? I don't know how that could be. It defies what scripture says a believer will, overtime, look like.
By the same token from my experience a person can say things with their mouth and make changes in their life in order to fit in where they desire to be accepted. But they are only on the outside for man to see, like going to church and even tithing but their heart is still black as coal.

Why can't it be what Jesus said happens, they don't mature and fall away?

"13"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8: NASB)

Why does OSAS make no room for weak faith with no firm root as Jesus does here? That kind of faith can be easily uprooted. A strong faith is what can persevere to the very end and save a person.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you don't believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, then you're the one who has doubts, not me.

Doubts about what? My faith is the strongest it has ever been in my life right now.

Do you understand the Catholic argument I presented? If you do, explain to me how it is wrong.

It's amazing how people can confuse themselves by not sticking to the truth.
The truth hasn't changed, just some people change their thinking about what the truth is.

Did you know non-OSAS was in the church for 1500 years before OSAS came along. So now who isn't sticking to the truth?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The reason why the confusion:

Reason deals with facts.

Faith deals with truth.

Faith always supersede reason.

Facts are changeable.

Truth is unchangeable.

Jesus said in John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

But faith never supersedes the scriptures. That's where you go wrong.

 

[Deborah13]

If you mean 'believing' then I agree. Works are just the way we can tell what you believe and to what extent in non-OSAS.



Ha, not even remotely true. I'm convinced that you're going to have a real struggle on your hands if you try to wrestle free of God's loving kindness. Hebrews 12:4-11 NASB talks about the loving discipline God delivers to his kids. But it also talks about it only produces the fruit of righteousness in those who have been trained by it. Some simply won't learn a thing from getting knocked over the head.



When you wake up from your fantasy of what non-OSAS let me know.




If the thing that you see differently with God about is faith in Christ, then, yes, you're going to have to bend a lot in that department. A lot. There are no midway meeting points about that.



Say what?

Maybe I should have word that first sentence differently.
"I don't entirely dismiss that doctrine. But there is a real danger to the saved in that doctrine.
It's says that what YOU do on a daily bases determines your salvation."

Rewrite that quote in blue....
"The is a real danger to SOME saved people in that doctrine."
My examples were of how people can ended up viewing God.
Depending on who is teaching it the message can be very legalistic.
"You had better confess every sin immediately, because if you don't and you die, you just may go to HELL."
When this message is presented with little or no grace people can get the wrong understanding and many have. I have heard the testimonies of Godly men and women that said it caused them to be so afraid that they were always looking at themselves. It's called 'navel gazing' by some who have been there.

My first statement was worded rather like yours that accuse the whole church of teaching grace that is lawless. The whole church being accused of something because of some sticks in my craw, too.