once saved always saved

[Willie T]

Gottcha, Deb.
I am still staggered at the vile, obscene assumptions and accusations that some self-righteous people use to describe other Christians who understand that Jesus did not die so that we could dismiss His death with the attempts to earn Salvation that they seem to think is the basis of Christianity.

Very truthfully, if I had to be judgmental about the "Law" churches I have encountered, and the "Grace" churches, I would have to honestly say that the lives of the Grace people appear to be much more spiritually aligned than those of most of the "Law" people. The Grace people seem to live to please God, and the "Law" people seem to simply grind away at making sure they are adhering to rules.

 

[Deborah13]

Gottcha, Deb.
I am still staggered at the vile, obscene assumptions and accusations that some self-righteous people use to describe other Christians who understand that Jesus did not die so that we could dismiss His death with the attempts to earn Salvation that they seem to think is the basis of Christianity.

Very truthfully, if I had to be judgmental about the "Law" churches I have encountered, and the "Grace" churches, I would have to honestly say that the lives of the Grace people appear to be much more spiritually aligned than those of most of the "Law" people. The Grace people seem to live to please God, and the "Law" people seem to simply grind away at making sure they are adhering to rules.

I have seen that the joy of the Lord, of being His child, can be fuller in ones life.
Four yrs ago there was a lady and her husband, both in their early 70's, in the church that I went to. I knew them from being in Bible studies together and she always sat next to me in church. They always seemed to be spiritually tried, they had been walking with the Lord for about 50 yrs. and there was no real joy. I knew what they believed and I wanted to give her a book that I had read by a grace preacher but I felt the Lord was not telling me to do that.
About six mths or so later, she called me. I could tell something was very different about her, she was so happy. She told me that her long time friend had mailed her the very book I wanted to give her. She had gotten a grace message that filled her heart with joy. She said she felt like a huge burden had been lifted off her shoulders and that now she knew that God's love for her was so much bigger than she had ever imagined and she loved Him more than ever. She said lots of things but that was the gist of it.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Eugene said: ↑
If Jesus our Judge and Savior won't erase our name from the book of life (Rev 3:5), for any reason (Jn 6:37), just what is going to condemn you?

What will condemn you? Unbelief--a turning away from the blood that sanctified you. The blood of Christ can not save you on the day wrath if you do not have the blood of Christ applied to you through faith on that day.

That unbelief was either there from the beginning or Jesus is a liar and we all know better than that. Jesus assured us all when he said that none can be lost. This is one of those lessons that requires an entire reading of scripture that all the light of all scripture might shine upon it. When we take the totality of the context of the scripture, if you were ever saved, you are saved, period.

Eugene said: ↑
Is there another criterion for entering eternity win Christ?

Faith. That has always been the criterion. You can't show up at the Judgment without it. You have to hang onto it.

Eph. 2:8 Our faith is a gift of God just as much as is our salvation. God, from the beginning, gifted me with a voice people loved and in spite of all I did that should have destroyed it,l I couldn't, it was from God! Fath in God can be faked, perhaps easier than speaking in tongues, but if it is real it cannot be cast aside. That is true or God/Jesus lied and that ain't so!

Eugene said: ↑

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
[...]
believe God has already proven how far He is willing to do for us without our fearing destruction.
I will say that I have seen many remaining in the pigpen for a big part of their lives.​

​

He says right in the passage you are quoting that you can't live in a lifestyle of sin and be saved, because born again people don't do that. But you are sure you can live in that lifestyle of sin and still be saved on the Day of Wrath, right? At the very least, OSAS should be acknowledging that you can not backslide into a lifestyle of sin and expect to be saved on the Day of Wrath.

The highlighted in red in your post says it all... they were pretenders and He never knew them.

Eugene said: ↑

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.​

"...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning" (1 john 2:24 NASB)

"...not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to everyman's conscience in the sight of God." (2 Corinthians 4:2 NASB)

There is no conflict here, that I can see.

 

[JLB]

Gottcha, Deb.
I am still staggered at the vile, obscene assumptions and accusations that some self-righteous people use to describe other Christians who understand that Jesus did not die so that we could dismiss His death with the attempts to earn Salvation that they seem to think is the basis of Christianity.

Very truthfully, if I had to be judgmental about the "Law" churches I have encountered, and the "Grace" churches, I would have to honestly say that the lives of the Grace people appear to be much more spiritually aligned than those of most of the "Law" people. The Grace people seem to live to please God, and the "Law" people seem to simply grind away at making sure they are adhering to rules.

It's not an attempt to earn salvation by works.

It is however, the works of obedience, that earmarks a life that is led by the Spirit.

The obedience of faith is the action that is necessary to carry out the will of God.

Works = the effort that obedience requires.


Consider the following verses by James, because you will find the same exact analogy spoken by Jesus Christ when He sentenced His servants to the everlasting fires of hell on the Day of Judgement, because they had no works.

No works = DISOBEDIENCE!

...if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

The $1,000,000.00 Question.

...if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?


14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:14-21


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar.


The works or effort that was required of Abraham, was that he offer Isaac on the altar as a sacrifice to God.


By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son... Hebrews 11:17


Without the works of faith, which is obedience, then all you are hoping for is that a life of disobedience will be rewarded the same way a life of obedience is.


JLB

 

[Willie T]

It's not an attempt to earn salvation by works.

It is however, the works of obedience, that earmarks a life that is led by the Spirit.

The obedience of faith is the action that is necessary to carry out the will of God.

Works = the effort that obedience requires.


Consider the following verses by James, because you will find the same exact analogy spoken by Jesus Christ when He sentenced His servants to the everlasting fires of hell on the Day of Judgement, because they had no works.

No works = DISOBEDIENCE!

...if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

The $1,000,000.00 Question.

...if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?


14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:14-21


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar.


The works or effort that was required of Abraham, was that he offer Isaac on the altar as a sacrifice to God.


By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son... Hebrews 11:17


Without the works of faith, which is obedience, then all you are hoping for is that a life of disobedience will be rewarded the same way a life of obedience is.


JLB

As I said..... It has been my considerable experience that Grace people produce far more fruit of God's will in their lives than most people (law-types) who strain at their gnats of rule keeping... totally missing the fact that Abraham was commended for his faith, not his adherence to following rules.

 

[th1b.taylor]

As I said..... It has been my considerable experience that Grace people produce far more fruit of God's will in their lives than most people (law-types) who strain at their gnats of rule keeping... totally missing the fact that Abraham was commended for his faith, not his adherence to following rules.

And perhaps out of line but I so seldom see an opportunity to say it. I teach all of the Bible and have, so often, falsely, been accused, even on this forum, of teaching obedience to the Law because this sin sick generation has had their ability to enjoy reading destroyed by the Internet and the Phones one finds LOL type short cuts to good speach.

Jesus kept the Law and Jesus set an example for us to follow coupled with the command that if we love Him we will keep His commands... such a delimna for the Ear Tickler in the Pulpit. I, Bill Taylor, filthy sinner, save by God's grace, love my Saviour so much that, though I fail and must repent, try to live, just, as my LORD lived.

That lesson, in truth, has nothing to do with keeping a Law that was never meant fro us to keep. It has to do with love, the one thing least found in the Church and almost completely absent on these Christian Forums found on the Internet.

 

[Deborah13]

It's not an attempt to earn salvation by works.

It is however, the works of obedience, that earmarks a life that is led by the Spirit.

The obedience of faith is the action that is necessary to carry out the will of God.

Works = the effort that obedience requires.


Consider the following verses by James, because you will find the same exact analogy spoken by Jesus Christ when He sentenced His servants to the everlasting fires of hell on the Day of Judgement, because they had no works.

No works = DISOBEDIENCE!

...if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

The $1,000,000.00 Question.

...if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?


14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:14-21


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar.


The works or effort that was required of Abraham, was that he offer Isaac on the altar as a sacrifice to God.


By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son... Hebrews 11:17


Without the works of faith, which is obedience, then all you are hoping for is that a life of disobedience will be rewarded the same way a life of obedience is.


JLB

I think it might have quite a bit to do with the attitude and motive by which those works of obedience/faith are preformed. And I am NOT talking about doing them to earn one's salvation.
But not being done for personal gain in this world and not doing them grudging.
Attitude and motive.

 

[JLB]

As I said..... It has been my considerable experience that Grace people produce far more fruit of God's will in their lives than most people (law-types) who strain at their gnats of rule keeping... totally missing the fact that Abraham was commended for his faith, not his adherence to following rules.

Abraham walked with God and obeyed His Voice, just like we are called to do.

Just like Jesus and Paul and Smith Wigglesworth and John G. Lake and Lester Sumerall and anyone else who was led by the Spirit.

There is no other kind of faith than that.


JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

Abraham walked with God and obeyed His Voice, just like we are called to do.

Just like Jesus and Paul and Smith Wigglesworth and John G. Lake and Lester Sumerall and anyone else who was led by the Spirit.

There is no other kind of faith than that.


JLB

JLB!!!!
You just ruined my number one method of convincing atheist scientist types that they do have faith but have just misplaced it.

Shame on you!

 

[iLOVE]

Faith is the master key! It will open every door. It will access every promises. Faith is what's needed to get you to the other side. Bible belief is only dependent on the word of God. I believe it first - then I will speak it - and I believe whatever I speak is going to come to pass. To get faith to work for you, you must bring your conversation, your thinking, and your believing in line with your faith. And your faith saying it's already done. Because nothing can stand against the word of God!

Levels of faith: (many other examples in the bible)

Great faith - Matthew 8:5-10
Unfeigned faith - II Timothy 1:5
Wavering faith - James 1:5-7
Perfect faith - James 2:22
Rich faith - James 2:5
Full of faith - Acts 6:1-5
Little Faith - Matthew 6:25-34, Matthew 14:25-31
No faith - Mark 4:35-40

What level of faith are you?

 

[Willie T]

Abraham walked with God and obeyed His Voice, just like we are called to do.

Just like Jesus and Paul and Smith Wigglesworth and John G. Lake and Lester Sumerall and anyone else who was led by the Spirit.

There is no other kind of faith than that.


JLB

Actually Abraham was preparing to break God's law by committing murder, if the truth be known. And, by faith, he ignored the Law to do what he felt the spirit of God was telling him to do. Just the thing so many Christians admonish people for doing today, when those people speak of believing God led them to do something the naysayers don't approve of.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Actually Abraham was preparing to break God's law by committing murder, if the truth be known. And, by faith, he ignored the Law to do what he felt the spirit of God was telling him to do.

That is a very broad brush you just painted with because I, generally, respect you, I pray you are going to narrow that stroke with a definition because the Law was a couple of thousand, maybe less, years away.

 

[JLB]

Actually Abraham was preparing to break God's law by committing murder, if the truth be known. And, by faith, he ignored the Law to do what he felt the spirit of God was telling him to do. Just the thing so many Christians admonish people for doing today, when those people speak of believing God led them to do something the naysayers don't approve of.

God's law is what God tells you to do.


JLB

 

[reba]

To the thread in general.... please remember


2.4: Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[Willie T]

That is a very broad brush you just painted with because I, generally, respect you, I pray you are going to narrow that stroke with a definition because the Law was a couple of thousand, maybe less, years away.

I'm pretty sure you will find God wasn't too keen on Cain killing Able. So, I doubt thousands of years had to pass for mankind to understand they were not to kill one another.

Genesis 26:5 kind of tips us off to that.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'm pretty sure you will find God wasn't too keen on Cain killing Able. So, I doubt thousands of years had to pass for mankind to understand they were not to kill one another.

Genesis 26:5 kind of tips us off to that.

At least, on the surface, that has nothing to do with Abraham. I'm still lost.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Willie, let's review our common ground:

Justification is by faith in God's promise that your sin is forgiven through the blood of Christ. This forgiveness of sins is how your unrighteousness gets removed and Christ's righteousness gets put in it's place. We both agree that you can not remove your unrighteousness by doing righteous works of the law, or prove that you are already righteous in and of yourself by doing good works. The only way to be declared righteous in God's sight, and thus qualified for salvation, is through the forgiveness of your sins.

The way we get this forgiveness of sins is by trusting in God's promise--his word--that the blood of Christ will wipe away your sins if you trust it to do that. Thus the reason why righteousness comes by faith--faith in God's promise that Christ's blood washes away our unrighteousness that cuts us off from God and sentences us to eternal damnation.

Now, with all this said, how is looking at pornography, or rebelling against authority, for example, 'having faith' in the forgiveness God has provided you in Jesus Christ? It obviously isn't.

As a Christian, doing good works--even on purpose--is not automatically and categorically trying to earn a declaration of 'you are righteous' from God. But so many Christians think that. We seek to purposely do good works because that is what faith and trust in the forgiveness of God looks like. You show you have faith and trust in God's promise of forgiveness by doing good things.

A profound and widespread misunderstanding of what Paul said is the damnable works gospel has many, many people thinking that purposely not sinning and choosing to do right is what Paul meant by 'earning' your own declaration of righteousness. Hardly. In fact, purposely choosing to do right because God has forgiven you in Christ is the visible footprint of believing God's word that he has forgiven your sins in Christ that he expects, because that is the obedience that faith in Christ demands--not because that's the purchase price of justification, but because loving obedience is the expected and obligatory response to having been set free from the condemnation of your sins

So, I ask again. Is looking at pornography, or rebelling against authority what faith and trust in Christ to forgive sins looks like? Of course not. The person who is doing that needs to examine if they 1) have ever trusted God to forgive their sins, or 2) stopped trusting in that somewhere along the line.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As I said..... It has been my considerable experience that Grace people produce far more fruit of God's will in their lives than most people (law-types) who strain at their gnats of rule keeping... totally missing the fact that Abraham was commended for his faith, not his adherence to following rules.

In general, 'works' people commend themselves for their works apart from faith, while, 'grace' people commend themselves for their faith apart from works. But Abraham was commended for his faith and the obligatory action of his faith, not just his faith, alone, but that is what so many in the modern Protestant movement think they will be commended for--faith alone. Not knowing that faith has to leave an expected footprint for that faith to be the faith that God commends and which can save a person. Abraham had those footprints. He showed that he believed God by doing what one would expect somebody to do who believed what God had told him was true. This is the truth that most Christians do not understand, thinking their faith 'alone' is going to save them on the Day of Wrath.

Again, I am confident this is being heard as a works gospel. If it is a works gosepl, then Abraham was guilty of trying to be justified by works, too.

 

[Willie T]

I'm complying, Reba.......................................................................................................................................

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To get faith to work for you, you must bring your conversation, your thinking, and your believing in line with your faith.

Don't you mean you must bring your behavior in line with your faith for faith to be effectual?

If Abraham did not purposely behave in accordance with what he knew to be true through the enabling of faith would he have attained the promise he knew to be true? No, of course not. He would have been showing his indifference, or contempt for what God had shown him to be true. God can not make faith effectual for you unless you act in accordance with that faith.

That's how it is for us Christians. We can't make our faith in the forgiveness of God effectual unto salvation if we don't purposely seek to respond in a way that is appropriate for a person who believes that God has forgiven him in Christ. It means shutting off the computer when tempted to look at pornography, or submitting to authority even when you don't feel like it because God has rescued you from the penalty of having done those things in the past. And if you don't do that, you are choosing to not walk in the grace of God's forgiveness that he has provided for you. That is not a works gospel, but so many people think it is.

Purposely choosing to sin is not 'having faith' in Christ. Plain and simple.