Bible Study Once saved always saved?

[wavy]

No one is saved, so no one can say. We gotta get to the end first, working out our own salvation. Now I truly believe Yahweh is merciful and that if you seek him with your whole heart, you can be given eternal life and be resurrected in the last day.

This once saved always saved is nonsense. Preach "once saved always saved" to the guys in Matthew 7:21-23.

So when do you seek him? :o Not until the last day because the days before that, he is not merciful and just enough to forgive us? :o

This is an irrelevant question, I must say (no offense). Either that or I have misunderstood (or you are not being clear enough).

 

[wavy]

No one is saved, so no one can say. We gotta get to the end first, working out our own salvation. Now I truly believe Yahweh is merciful and that if you seek him with your whole heart, you can be given eternal life and be resurrected in the last day.

This once saved always saved is nonsense. Preach "once saved always saved" to the guys in Matthew 7:21-23.

Whaaat? :-?

Jesus told me in Matthew 11..28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.â€Â

How can you rest in your Father's arms with a day to day wondering and NO assurance? That doesn't sound like an easy yoke...that sounds like a frightening burden to carry. Part of my 'peace that passes understanding' includes the assurance that no sin is bigger than the cleansing capability of Jesus' blood. If it were, the Holy Spirit would be coming and going in and out of me like a revolving door. If I start choosing flesh over Spirit, I trust Him to guide me back.

This is also kind of irrelevant to anything I said (no offense). We have to know what this yoke is, number one, and not misapply it to an area of scripture that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Also, I don't think "easy" is the proper translation here if we look up the Greek word, and it does not fit the context.

We are supposed to pick up our execution stakes/crosses and follow. Not take a, as my dad says, a "tip-toe through the tulips".

And I didn't say anything about any sin being "too big". My point is that no one is technically "saved" yet (in terms of from Yahweh's wrath). So just going to some manmade altar and repeating after the words of the preacher, or praying the "sinner's prayer" and really meaning it at the point you said it does not guarantee salvation.

Also if no one is "saved", there is no such thing as "once saved always saved".

And again, please see Matthew 7:21-23 and find who those people are and preach "once saved always saved" to them. Preach this also to those branches who are "hewn down and cast into the fire" for not continually abiding in Messiah in John 15.


Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

The key is on obedience, realzing before whom you walk (as one rabbi put it to me). And no, not by your own criteria, but on Yahweh's criteria. This is true faith. Messiah can live in you, not for you. We have retained our ability to make choices.

Thanx.

 

[wavy]

Gal 5:1-6
5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
NKJV


I'm guessing your "fallen from" comment has to do with this passage. This is not talking about falling from salvation. It is talking about walking in the flesh. Notice that Paul had just described the difference between salvation by grace alone through faith and self-righteousness through law keeping. Then he goes back to his original theme of those who were promoting the keeping of the law as a duty for Christians and Paul warns them that they will not profit that way. They will not increase through their own efforts.

Not getting into Torah, I'll say you have contradicted yourself here. If you fall from grace, and yet grace is how we are saved, then your salvation would not be a reality if you continued in whatever false, manmade ways of worship you started walking in.

 

[Asaph]

Gal 5:1-6
5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
NKJV


I'm guessing your "fallen from" comment has to do with this passage. This is not talking about falling from salvation. It is talking about walking in the flesh. Notice that Paul had just described the difference between salvation by grace alone through faith and self-righteousness through law keeping. Then he goes back to his original theme of those who were promoting the keeping of the law as a duty for Christians and Paul warns them that they will not profit that way. They will not increase through their own efforts.

Not getting into Torah, I'll say you have contradicted yourself here. If you fall from grace, and yet grace is how we are saved, then your salvation would not be a reality if you continued in whatever false, manmade ways of worship you started walking in.

No contradiction, you are not grasping what I am saying. (that is my fault. I didn't want to put the whole passage here because it would have been to long. but what I did put up must be taken in context in order to get the meaning).

Paul is talking about those who attempt to justify themselves after being born again. His point is that they have fallen from walking in the Grace that bought them. He does not say they have fallen into hell. What he is describing is a carnal Christian seeking to be justified in the eyes of God on his own terms. That of works.

 

[wavy]

Paul is talking about those who attempt to justify themselves after being born again. His point is that they have fallen from walking in the Grace that bought them. He does not say they have fallen into hell. What he is describing is a carnal Christian seeking to be justified in the eyes of God on his own terms. That of works.

Justify themselves by other criteria. He said it himself, "Christ has become of no effect/void to you, you who are justified by law, you have fallen from grace".

To me, this cannot be any clearer. And I said nothing about "falling into hell". I really don't mean to be so blunt and sound so rude (so don't take that way if that is what you feel).

Sidebar: do you think Torah is our "own terms"?

 

[Asaph]

Paul is talking about those who attempt to justify themselves after being born again. His point is that they have fallen from walking in the Grace that bought them. He does not say they have fallen into hell. What he is describing is a carnal Christian seeking to be justified in the eyes of God on his own terms. That of works.

Justify themselves by other criteria. He said it himself, "Christ has become of no effect/void to you, you who are justified by law, you have fallen from grace".

To me, this cannot be any clearer. And I said nothing about "falling into hell". I really don't mean to be so blunt and sound so rude (so don't take that way if that is what you feel).

Sidebar: do you think Torah is our "own terms"?

Well, I don't mean to be so blunt either, but I wasn't responding to your post when I said that.

If one is unwilling to accept salvation on God's terms, that of salvation by Grace alone through faith in the Son of God, they will always either try to go back to their pre-school tutor, or make for themselves another path.

I will leave you to try and figure out what the "tutor" is. :

 

[wavy]

Well, I don't mean to be so blunt either, but I wasn't responding to your post when I said that.

Well, you quoted me, so I thought...

I will leave you to try and figure out what the "tutor" is.

We don't forget what was taught in pre-school after we leave. Higher education must be built upon the easy principles first. If your preschool learning deteriorates and you grow spiritually senile, everything you think you thought you knew about kindergarten/elementary/middle school/highschool/college means nothing...

 

[Asaph]

Well, I don't mean to be so blunt either, but I wasn't responding to your post when I said that.

Well, you quoted me, so I thought...

I will leave you to try and figure out what the "tutor" is.

We don't forget what was taught in pre-school after we leave. Higher education must be built upon the easy principles first. If your preschool learning disappears and you grow spiritual senile, everything you think you thought you knew about kindergarten/elementary/middle school/highschool/college means nothing...

Actually, I quoted no one when I posted what you are referring to.

The law is not a tutor that teaches only about Christ, it is a teacher that brings one to Christ. Therefore the law is inferior to Christ.

 

[wavy]

Actually, I quoted no one when I posted what you are referring to:

You're original post and quote that I responded to:

Gal 5:1-6
5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
NKJV


I'm guessing your "fallen from" comment has to do with this passage. This is not talking about falling from salvation. It is talking about walking in the flesh. Notice that Paul had just described the difference between salvation by grace alone through faith and self-righteousness through law keeping. Then he goes back to his original theme of those who were promoting the keeping of the law as a duty for Christians and Paul warns them that they will not profit that way. They will not increase through their own efforts.

Not getting into Torah, I'll say you have contradicted yourself here. If you fall from grace, and yet grace is how we are saved, then your salvation would not be a reality if you continued in whatever false, manmade ways of worship you started walking in.

No contradiction, you are not grasping what I am saying. (that is my fault. I didn't want to put the whole passage here because it would have been to long. but what I did put up must be taken in context in order to get the meaning).

Paul is talking about those who attempt to justify themselves after being born again. His point is that they have fallen from walking in the Grace that bought them. He does not say they have fallen into hell. What he is describing is a carnal Christian seeking to be justified in the eyes of God on his own terms. That of works.

Anyway, I'm sure we don't have to dwell on this...

The law is not a tutor that teaches only about Christ, it is a teacher that brings one to Christ. Therefore the law is inferior to Christ.

Yes, Torah is not on equal footing with Messiah.

 

[Geo]

Asaph how does this relate to Matthew 22 ?
or any of the other two Matthew "castings"

What exactly is "cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping
and gnashing of teeth."

And what or where is outer darkness?

 

[Asaph]

Asaph how does this relate to Matthew 22 ?
or any of the other two Matthew "castings"

What exactly is "cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping
and gnashing of teeth."

And what or where is outer darkness?

If you think that applies to the children of God, how in the world would I be able to explain it?

The sacrifice paid for me was the supreme, unfathonable, unattaianable payment.

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph

 

[wavy]

*edited*

 

[Asaph]

The chances of anyone actually listening to you when you direct comments like these towards them drop significantly lower...

You are absolutely correct. I edited it.

 

[Geo]

And he was speechless.

That was the reaction of the wedding guest before get got kicked out.
He was not an unbeliever, he was invited AND did show to the wedding,
his problem was he didn't prepare (dress) himself.

That was Matt. 22.

There are others, like for ex. Matthew 25:30  
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

A unprofitable servant is not a unbeliever. He is a believer that is
ignorant or pretends to be dead after tasting grace.

Grace is offered, but people can reject it obviously.
Whatever you reject will not be forced onto you.

Once saved always saved, yes if you go along with it,
and know what God asks of us, and not become a speechless wedding guest.

slowly I think it's the ignorance about this what makes it possible

 

[Khristeeanos]

WAVY!!!

Since Asaph was kind enough to edit his comments, and seeing as how they are still there in your quote, why not go back and edit out all of his comments in your post on Fri Dec 23, 2005 at 2:43 am?

I only say this as a fellow poster. Thanks!

 

[wavy]

^done.

 

[Asaph]

And he was speechless.

That was the reaction of the wedding guest before get got kicked out.
He was not an unbeliever, he was invited AND did show to the wedding,
his problem was he didn't prepare (dress) himself.

That was Matt. 22.

There are others, like for ex. Matthew 25:30  
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

A unprofitable servant is not a unbeliever. He is a believer that is
ignorant or pretends to be dead after tasting grace.

Grace is offered, but people can reject it obviously.
Whatever you reject will not be forced onto you.

Once saved always saved, yes if you go along with it,
and know what God asks of us, and not become a speechless wedding guest.

slowly I think it's the ignorance about this what makes it possible

I have to disagree about the fellow you are referring to being a believer. He was not clothed in his wedding attire because he had none. Christ's robes of righteousness are put on us, we don't obtain them for ourselves.

(as a side note, please forgive me for my earlier comments)

 

[Geo]

Consider if there would be any unbelievers at the wedding.
When you hold a wedding you do not invite people that
do not belong or relate. It's not a conversion gathering.

Also, where does the speechless reaction come from?

Presumption.

If someone doesn't know a requirement, and is told he might
get an 'aha' reaction or similar.

But this guest is speechless, because he thought he knew
the requirement, but actually didn't.

 

[Asaph]

Consider if there would be any unbelievers at the wedding.
When you hold a wedding you do not invite people that
do not belong or relate. It's not a conversion gathering.

Also, where does the speechless reaction come from?

Presumption.

If someone doesn't know a requirement, and is told he might
get an 'aha' reaction or similar.

But this guest is speechless, because he thought he knew
the requirement, but actually didn't.

There might be another reason for him being speechless though:

Rom 3:19-20

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
NKJV

 

[Geo]

Doesn't click. I'm still looking for an answer that makes sense.
It's a tough one to understand if grace is the point where thinking
stops, as under grace it obviously cannot happen.

And what about the unprofitable servant?
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Ok, so he was not profitable. But wasn't he still under grace?
At least in the broad understanding where grace is so all inclusive
that you do not actually need to live a holy life?