Bible Study Once saved always saved?

[wavy]

:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: :crazyeyes:

I laughed fairly hard at this (more than I usually do, at least).

 

[Geo]

If we are in Christ, we have already repented.

Yes, and if our life would end that very moment we would be good

But life in the flesh still goes on, and people think we don't make
choices anymore, Jesus would make that choice for us. Since the old nature
is dead in Christ it can not sin anymore and therfore no repentance is
required ever again. Can we honestly say we never sin again? Or if we
do, that sin would be automatically valued as non-existent or neutral
because we are under grace? Of course we have to repent again.

The way of the cross is based on repentance.

And if it would be not so, we (humanity) could make it a global requirement
to have every child worldwide say a statement of repentance at the age of 12
so ALL would be saved, and not one would perish. We would go on as usual
but would have legalistic proof that we are no longer under law when we go to
war and kill each other and would think of ourselves as not accountable.

And that's what we partially are doing in reality. And many find no fault with it,
since we "have already repented" and a life in sin cannot touch us in any way.
As I quoted somewhere else:

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: for it is
better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having
two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall
be quenched.

The grace of God that saves us, does NOT allow us to enter
into life whether we have cut off the offending hand or not: but
IS that revelation of truth that makes us WILLING and ABLE to cut
off WHATEVER appears to stand between us and salvation.

 

[Asaph]

Oh really?

1 John 3:8-9
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
NKJV

 

[yesha]

This is really a grace vs works debate.

On the one hand you have scriptures that conviningly show you that you are saved not by anything you do, but by God's grace. That sin has no string of death for you because Christ payed the penalty for your sins.

On the other side, you are to walk in the Spirit, and do good works. Which begs the question, what if I don't. And there is warning not to deceive your self to thinking that you can live sinfully and still enter into eternal life.

1 Cor 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
(NIV)

So now we now that sin could be a problem. But didn't Christ already pay the price for the sin in our life. If it is STILL a problem, then Christ died for nothing, as far as we're concerned.

So can a person with some kind of sin in their life be saved.
One would hope so, because I doubt there is anyone who doesn't have sin in their life, and a little sin has the same death consequences as a lot of sin.

So now we have sinful people getting saved. So what of the warnings about getting blotted out? What sin can't be forgiven. I think only one.

Is it lack of repentance that unsaves a person. Well unless you achieve a sinless state at the point of death, you will still have unrepented sin.

I think the only way to lose salvation is to fall away. This sin can't be forgiven because this sin rejects forgiveness. And I think sin of anykind drives people to commit this sin.

Therefore anyone who is in Christ is saved. And they will always be saved as long as they remain in Christ. And as long as they are in Christ, the Holy Spirit will bring to to repentance, and good works, convict them of sin, and transform them into Christ. So the question now becomes, am I in Christ.

2 Cor 13:5-6
5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you-- unless, of course, you fail the test?
6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test.
(NIV)

 

[Asaph]

Oh really?

1 John 3:8-9
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
NKJV

Asaph, you drive me crazy. I am done with you. I hope someone can put some sense into you. Church leaders should be ashamed of themselves making such a big confusion to their people.

First, I'm not any kind of church leader, I don't know where you got that.

More importantly, I was not being flippant by posting that scripture. The majority of the church today is in a state of carnality precisley because they do not know what that scripture means and they are running around acting righteous instead of resting and being righteous.

I am a child of God. I repented. I no longer live for the world, by the world, or of the world. I live for, by and of the Kingdom of God. My righteousness is totally settled forever because of what Jesus did for me. His righteousness has been imputed to me. When God sees me now I am perfect and without blemish because He doesn't see my filthy rags, He sees the blood of His only begotten Son. Now what do you suppose a person's response would be to truely understanding that? A life of debauchery? No way! How can one not worship the giver of so great a gift? It makes me want to fall at His feet in wonder and amazement.

 

[homewardbound]

I used to believe in OSAS and didn't feel confident in my salvation.

Now I believe in salvation by grace through faith and that faith is rejectable and I have complete assurance of my salvation.

My salvation and assurance comes from Jesus and not a doctrine.

Sums it up perfectly for me.

 

[Georges]

I used to believe in OSAS and didn't feel confident in my salvation.

Now I believe in salvation by grace through faith and that faith is rejectable and I have complete assurance of my salvation.

My salvation and assurance comes from Jesus and not a doctrine.

Sums it up perfectly for me.

and yet the question remains....if you recieve Christ and later down the road reject him, are you still saved?

 

[Geo]

Whenever we get lost in our own understanding, and shut down
thinking because we love one doctrine just too much so see the
whole picture, we should look at how HE sees the situation of all
believers (all the church/es):

Revelation 2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen,
and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly,
and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:16  Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will
fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:21  And I gave her space to repent of her fornication;
and she repented not.

Revelation 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that
commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent
of their deeds.

Revelation 3:3  Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard,
and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come
on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3:19  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore,
and repent.

Whenever we say there is no absolute view, and we do not belong to above
people, we have our own view and do not belong to Him that spoke to us.

 

[LoveMe]

Once saved always saved

Once we are saved we,are always saved.I f a person is not walking right with God,I believe He will take their anointing away. :angel:

 

[homewardbound]

I used to believe in OSAS and didn't feel confident in my salvation.

Now I believe in salvation by grace through faith and that faith is rejectable and I have complete assurance of my salvation.

My salvation and assurance comes from Jesus and not a doctrine.

Sums it up perfectly for me.

and yet the question remains....if you recieve Christ and later down the road reject him, are you still saved?

I would say no. How can one be saved if he/she rejects Christ?

For many, the OSAS debate boils down to whether or not it is possible to reject Christ after being saved. I believe God leaves our free will intact after conversion, so it is possible to lapse back into our former ways and reject the gift of salvation.

 

[Georges]

I used to believe in OSAS and didn't feel confident in my salvation.

Now I believe in salvation by grace through faith and that faith is rejectable and I have complete assurance of my salvation.

My salvation and assurance comes from Jesus and not a doctrine.

Sums it up perfectly for me.

and yet the question remains....if you recieve Christ and later down the road reject him, are you still saved?

I would say no. How can one be saved if he/she rejects Christ?

For many, the OSAS debate boils down to whether or not it is possible to reject Christ after being saved. I believe God leaves our free will intact after conversion, so it is possible to lapse back into our former ways and reject the gift of salvation.

yeh, but there are a lot of people out there who will agrue that by giving you the... "well they didn't really have the spirit in the first place" answer.

 

[Khristeeanos]

yeh, but there are a lot of people out there who will agrue that by giving you the... "well they didn't really have the spirit in the first place" answer.

Let us think about the reason why people believe in OSAS (logically that is).

People want to know that God will be there for them no matter what. People have let them down and they need assurance that God will not do the same.

That is a great reason to want to have confidence in God's promises, right?

Well, those who take on the position described by Georges above have a problem!

It removes any assurance that any believer in Christ may have!

With this view of OSAS, assurance is literally impossible!

Think about it.

If I accept the above position, than how do I know that at some point in the future I won't reject my faith, only to realize that I never had salvation in the first place.

That means that today (and every other day) I can't have assurance with this OSAS teaching!

 

[Georges]

Bonsai.....I agree.....

For myself, I am very much content (as much as I can be with a continually saved theology....The opportunity to be saved, and resaved is always there. Falls in line with the "Book of Life" thread I started in the apologetics forum.

 

[Geo]

I just realize now how this all seems to be connected with each other,
OSAS is a "self-fulfilling prophecy", once you believe it, you cannot get out of it.
It's all about Calvin and the church of Sardis. The church age of the Protestant church:


"I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead"
The church of the Reformation. A church with deceptive reputation.
Jesus sums them up with 3 words : you are dead.

“Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments;”
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot
his name out of the book of life."

Jesus said basically that even though their teaching was faulty there were still
people in the church living right. In spite of the doctrines of OSAS, predestination,
and the rejection of Christ’s return there were still those who truly loved God
and were living holy lives. The few that not defiled their garments and overcome
are NOT blotted out. Where does that leave the majority of the Sardis church?

They have to overcome and repent in order to get not blotted out,
and that's exactly what the false doctrine prevents them to do.
In that case the original state "and art dead" remains.


Don't trust my interpretation, study it yourself:

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/7churches.html

http://www.momentin.com/revstudy/chap03sardis.html

---

 

[homewardbound]

I don't consider OSAS to be essential Christian doctrine, so I'm surprised at the number of people who are dogmatic about believing it. I don't susbscribe to if for a couple of reasons, one being my interpretation of several NT verses, the other being that if OSAS is true, how do I know I'm really, truly one of the saved? What if 10 years from now I were to slip back into the sinful lifestyle I led before Christ saved me? How disillioning that would be!

I think overall OSAS is harmless, but I hope those who subscribe to it don't use it as an excuse to put their lives on cruise-control, believing that how much or how little they sin or how they serve our Master is irrelevant.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I don't consider OSAS to be essential Christian doctrine, so I'm surprised at the number of people who are dogmatic about believing it.

Well for me it's all about 'grace'. I'm dogmatic about believing and living in the grace of God. And it's more about believing in the power of God to keep his children safe. It's important for me because I lived the 'other' life where I felt that I could lose my salvation at every turn like it was a bunch of keys or something. I lived my life believing I was going to hell because I was imperfect and couldn't live up to God's expectations perfectly all the time. One day I realised that I was not under grace. And that it was Christ that should be living and not me. When I gave up and rested in Christ - it was then that I realised that Christ's righteousness was what was being counted as my own and it's perfect and will forever be perfect. So now I rely on my faith in Christ's righteousness for my salvation - and I KNOW that Christ could never 'fall away' so I'm kept safe and 'hid' in Him.

I don't susbscribe to if for a couple of reasons, one being my interpretation of several NT verses,

I could probably guess the scriptures you're talking about. But did you know, that those scriptures fit neatly into the OSAS doctrine? That's something that I find quite ironic in that the OSNAS folk spout scripture that don't actually contradict the OSAS doctrine. They reject our scripture in preferance to their own but I don't reject their scripture at all. The scriptures that support both doctrines actually harmonise with the OSAS doctrine. But the OSNAS folk can't seem to harmonise the 'other' scriptures that seem to contradict their own. They don't have to contradict - scripture doesn't contradict themselves. They fit nicely in the OSAS doctrine but they dont' seem to be able to fit in the other one. Doesn't that seem strange to you?

the other being that if OSAS is true, how do I know I'm really, truly one of the saved? What if 10 years from now I were to slip back into the sinful lifestyle I led before Christ saved me? How disillioning that would be!

Well IF (and I say if) you would actually do that - I do believe that you wouldn't do it for very long. I believe that your very nature would dictate that being in that state isn't very comfortable and remember very quickly how it felt to be in favour of your heavenly father. Look at the story of the prodigal son. He returned. You underestimate your new nature in Christ and the power of hte Holy Spirit in your life if you think that you can slip so far back into sin that you couldn't come back.

I think overall OSAS is harmless, but I hope those who subscribe to it don't use it as an excuse to put their lives on cruise-control, believing that how much or how little they sin or how they serve our Master is irrelevant.

Well even if a TRUE born again child of God was to start thinking that way - it wouldn't last long. Because their very nature would resist that way of thinking and eventually they would realise that their old man is crucified with Christ and that it's Christ that lives in them and not them. Eventually they realise that it's their faith in Christ that will save them and not their works or lack of works. This brings great comfort and gratefulness to God and you can't help but rest in christ and allow HIS WORKS to flow through you.

All this providing that the person is a true child of God and not a false proffessor.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

It removes any assurance that any believer in Christ may have!

So there's no assurance for a BELIEVER IN CHRIST? One can't be assured of their salvation if they are a believer who is in christ?

You have no idea how far this goes against scripture my friend.

 

[Khristeeanos]

It removes any assurance that any believer in Christ may have!

So there's no assurance for a BELIEVER IN CHRIST? One can't be assured of their salvation if they are a believer who is in christ?

You have no idea how far this goes against scripture my friend.

If you take only part of my post and try to understand it, yes it goes against Scripture.

But take the entire context of what I was saying and it is impossible to refute it.

With one OSAS position, assurance is impossible.
With the other OSAS position, grace is a license to sin.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Then you misunderstand the theology then. There is no licence to sin and anyone that says that the OSAS gives one licence to sin, either doesn't understand the theology or is NOT a true Christian anyway.

I suggest you find out where the OSAS believer stands when it comes to sin...I can assure you that it's the same as you. Or are you afraid to do that?

 

[SputnikBoy]

I might as well grab what I placed on the other thread of the same topic and post it here too.

Two questions.

1. Does the OSAS philosophy mean that one can't possibly reject the Holy Spirit even if a former Christian should later choose to follow a nonChristian religion? People DO do this, by the way!

2. Where is the doctrine of OSAS found in the Bible? Or, is this a relatively recent frame of thought popularized by the lazy modern-day church that is 'ho-hum' about obedience to God anyway?