One result of being in union with Christ

[JLB]

Thus the contradiction with Paul's statement in Rom 8:35-39.

Would you care to explain???

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:35-39

• Being cast into hell will not separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Hell is created, and is in the depths of the earth.


Therefore, being cast into hell will not separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, which means this scripture in not some "guarantee" against anyone being cast into hell.



JLB

 

[JLB]

what i see in your words is a total lack of grace... a flat out disregard for some of the words of Christ...

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Many other passages or verses have been posted in these circle threads.......... This theology i shared.. is harmful to many .. When i first 'noticed it in scripture i was humbled... too many of the people involved are arrogant , closed minded, cherry pick scripture the same as any one else....



Really really ?
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The above passage is scripture which you said i only think Jesus said...

No more on this from me to youi FreeGrace there comes a time
Mat_10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Well said!


I believe there is so much Grace with God, as I am an example of just how far He will go to forgive again and again, those who humble themselves before Him in brokenness, and receive us back who are willing to keep believing, and not give up.

However there are those who have become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, and willing depart from Him, even cursing Him on their death bed, rather than receive forgiveness in the final hour.

Then there are those who have returned to a life of sin, and died in a car crash, or the like, and died in their sins, not able to repent.

I also believe that some may have returned to sin, and in their last breath cried out the name of Jesus and were forgiven before they died.

His grace is exceeding abundantly above and beyond all we can ask or think.

To Him be all honor and glory forever and ever.



JLB

 

[chessman]

being cast into hell will not separate us from the love of God

Then our definition of God's (Christ's) love differs.

Here's just a few examples of where my definition comes from:

1.

John 3:16 (NASB) “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. ​

Being cast into Hell is what God's love has saved of from. God's love gives us eternal life, not the second death.

2.

Romans 5:8-9 (LEB) but God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Therefore, by much more, because we have been declared righteous now by his blood, we will be saved through him from the wrath.​

Being loved by Christ is being saved (through Him, BTW) from the wrath, not experiencing the wrath.

3.

Psalm 37:28-29, 38-40 (NASB) For the Lord loves justice And does not forsake His godly ones; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked will be cut off. ...
The righteous will inherit the land And dwell in it forever. But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off. But the salvation of the righteous is from the Lord; He is their strength in time of trouble. The Lord helps them and delivers them; He delivers them from the wicked and saves them, Because they take refuge in Him. ​

God's love does not forsake/cut off.

2 Corinthians 13:14 (LEB) The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. ​

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 (LEB) with burning flame giving punishment to those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,​

Love requies fellowshipping with one another (Christ in this case). Being cast into Hell is by definition separation from the Lord.

From where do you get the idea that "being cast into hell will not separate us from the love of God"? (Other than that idea would allow for Romans 8:35-39 to still be true for so-called ex-believers)

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I think it's sad that anyone would think that I'm trying to trap anyone. I just gave the words of Jesus, which contradict what you think Jesus said in other places. We both can't be right."

Where are the words of Jesus you quoted?
JLB

You've made it quite obvious that you've not been even reading any of my posts.

But, here goes:
John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28.

 

[FreeGrace]

what i see in your words is a total lack of grace... a flat out disregard for some of the words of Christ...

Even though at the end of your post you are "bowing out" of further discussion, I will just respond to this first part of your post.

How is truth a "lack of grace"? Where does that come from? What I see in your (and others in your camp) words are claims that are not backed up with any evidence presented. That means "empty claims".

But, so be it.

I'll finish with this challenge. Read my new thread on John 10:28 and the example which proves that upon receiving eternal life, the promise is that the person WILL NEVER PERISH.

If that can be refuted from that passage, or if anyone can show that Jesus really didn't mean what He said, please proceed with an explanation.

 

[JLB]

You've made it quite obvious that you've not been even reading any of my posts.

But, here goes:
John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28.

What is John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28 ?

What does this mean?

These are scripture references, that refer to actual scripture, but what the scripture that these references say is unknown until you post the scripture itself, and the point you are making.


Here is an example:

Those who no longer believe, lose their salvation. Luke 8:13



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

What is John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28 ?

I'm happy to tell you what they are: the truth.

What does this mean?

Those who have believed are eternally secure.

These are scripture references, that refer to actual scripture, but what the scripture that these references say is unknown until you post the scripture itself, and the point you are making.

You've already been told by the mods that citing a reference is good enough. Unless, I guess, one is too lazy to put the cursor over the verse and just read it for themselves. The functions of this website don't give you any room for an excuse for not knowing what each verse says.

Here is an example:

Those who no longer believe, lose their salvation. Luke 8:13JLB

Really?? Please share what translation this comes from.

Here's the NIV translation - Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
NASB - "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
KJV - They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
ESV - And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

I think your translation is phony. There's no mention of losing anything in any of these translations.

Why do you claim that the words "eternal life" are not in Rom 11:29 yet do the same thing here? The reason the words "eternal life" are not needed in Rom 11:29 is because Paul already defined what he meant by God's gifts, which IS in 11:29, as well as in 6:23, the context for 11:29.

 

[JLB]

I'm happy to tell you what they are: the truth.

Those are scripture references, in which they were not in the original scriptures and depending on which version they are in, may or may not be legitimate.


So much for another one of your man inspired theories.



JLB

 

[WIP]

Guys! Drop the sarcasm!

 

[FreeGrace]

Those are scripture references, in which they were not in the original scriptures and depending on which version they are in, may or may not be legitimate.

What in the world are you referring to? Please explain yourself.

Where is the proof that John 3:16, 5:24 and 10:28 are "not in the original Scriptures"??

 

[chessman]

That's what your entire heresy depends on; not taking ALL of scripture.

Will you post which church council declared the guaranteed redemption of all who were included in Christ when they believed a heresy?

 

[atpollard]

I'm looking for some serious, honest, mature debate here.

Will you settle for discussion? Frankly, I find the level of vitriol exchanged draining and have no real interest in joining in the tit for tat scripture pong, so if you are enjoying that and looking for a better player, I'll gladly bow out. On the other hand, I am a Calvinist who believes in the Perseverance of the Saints, specifically that God can and will finish the good work which God began in us and those whom the Father fore-loved, he gave to the Son ... the Son will loose none of those given him by the Father, but will raise them up and glorify them on the last day.

Which is not "hyper-grace", nor is it "once saved always saved" as the caricature of both phrases is presented in online debates. So are you really looking for serious, honest and mature? If so, then I'm willing to try and uphold my end of the discussion.

 

[atpollard]

Metaphors represent real things. So what you have to do to is explain how the things the metaphors represent in Matthew 18:6-9 NASB can not send someone who believes in Jesus to the eternal fire despite the plain words of Jesus that they can. Of course, we will see that you will not be able to do that without resorting to creating absurd doctrines, redefining words, etc. because Jesus is making it very clear that little ones who believe in him can be made to stumble so as to go the eternal fire, but hyper-grace doctrine insists that is impossible:

[clip verses]

If you offer no respectable explanation as to how this is not really a non-OSAS passage, or you just blow the passage off again we will have no choice but to conclude that hyper-grace doctrine can not explain how the obvious reference to "little ones who believe in Me (Jesus)" being "cast into the eternal fire" as the result of stumbling directly contradicts hyper-grace doctrine.

Hold on folks, get ready for some more creative hyper-grace doctrine being brewed up to explain away the obvious.

Let's get some preamble out of the way, to avoid confusion. Jesus can and most certainly will send some people to Hell ... but let's not get caught up on words, so I will define "Hell" as some place prepared by God for Satan and his rebelling angels whose greatest feature is that it is eternal separation from God. Some people will also go there and it is described throughout scripture using metaphors of fire, burning trash and destruction. I do not know all of the details and do not wish to debate them. It is enough for me that Hell is real, Hell is bad, and I do not wish to go there. Beyond those facts, y'all may discuss it ‘ad nauseam’ without me.

Second point to get out of the way, is that God loved some before the foundation of the world, chose them, called them, gave them a new heart, Jesus Christ died for their sins, they have been sealed with the Holy Spirit (a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance) and God will finish what he started and glorify them, loosing none God has chosen. You may disagree, but this IS what I believe and am prepared to defend with scripture if requested. However, at this moment, there is no need to play scripture pong and vomit requested answers to questions you have not asked and the scripture supporting those answers, so I choose to leave it as a simple statement of my faith.

What intrigues me is the challenge of 'correctly dividing the word of God'. In this case, the gauntlet has been thrown down for Matthew 18:6-9 NASB. Personally, I prefer plain talk (like the Letters) to metaphors (like Jesus parables) and I prefer metaphors over visions (like Daniel and Revelation), but I reject none and am afraid of no scripture.

I like context, so let's take a look at more of Matthew 18 [NASB]

Rank in the Kingdom
1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Stumbling Blocks
7 “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9 If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11 [For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.]

Ninety-nine Plus One
12 “What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? 13 If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. 14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Discipline and Prayer
15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20 For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”

 

[atpollard]

Matthew 18:5-6 set out two opposing options. The previous verses and the clause "who believe in Me" (v.6) clearly establish that the "children" being spoken of are God's children. The two actions examined are those who receive God's children and those who cause God's children to stumble.

I will grant that having "a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea" is both unpleasant and fatal. What makes you think that it is damnation? I ask this only because other places where Jesus wants to use a metaphor for the destruction of something rejected by God (damnation) he tends to use fire and especially the local trash heap at Gehenna where corpses were burned. Could drowning be a more temporal punishment than eternal punishment?

Moving from points that we could debate forever, look at the word "stumble". [Confession time, I am a hack when it comes to Greek, but that doesn't keep me from trying to glean some insights.] It is Strong's (G4624) skandalízō; from G4625; to entrap, i.e. trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure):—(make to) offend.
Or from Thayer:
to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend
to entice to sin
to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
to cause to fall away
to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority
to cause one to judge unfavorably or unjustly of another
since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
to cause one displeasure at a thing
to make indignant
to be displeased, indignant

So that gives us a range of meanings to look at for the correct meaning of "cause to stumble". I am not challenging the definition of the words as much as looking for hints towards the original connotation of the Greek.
For example, does "stumble" mean to fall into sin and be unable to crawl out again? Is this a warning of punishment for someone who causes another to slip from salvation to damnation? That would be a very serious thing and an important verse to correctly understand if it is saying that. Is it speaking of someone who simply places an obstacle in the path of a child of God and causes them some distress on their journey, but no permanent harm. That would be a very different thing. See why it is important to really understand exactly what was meant by stumble.

Let is look to other verses where (G4624) is used:

Matthew 13:21 [NASB] yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls G4624 away. G4624

Here Jesus explains the Parable of the sower and describes the seed falling on rocky soil. A man can hear the word, but allow it to take no firm root in him, and immediately "fall away" (same word as 'stumble'). However, it seems clear that this man was not like the children "who believe in Me". If anything, this man sounds like a candidate for someone who might cause one of the children to stumble (and wish he had a millstone around his neck). The man in Matthew 13:21 sounds unsaved and never saved to me. A visitor who played with religion and ran off rather than believing in Jesus.

Matthew 26:31 [NASB] Then Jesus *said to them, “You will all fall G4624 away G4624 because of Me this night, for it is written, ‘I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.’

Here Jesus is speaking to the Apostles and they all DID 'fall away' (same word as 'stumble') yet we all know that it was not a permanent condition and things did not go well for the one who caused them to stumble. Judas hung himself and his corpse split open. It would have been better to have a millstone.

From scripture, I see two outcomes for stumbling in Matthew 18:6. For those who do not believe (the goats and the tares from the parables, living side by side with the sheep and the wheat until the angels separate them), the stumbling will prove fatal. For those who believe (God's sheep, who know Jesus voice and listen, the chosen and fore-loved) the stumble is just a temporary experience. A time to learn about humility and grace.

 

[atpollard]

Picking up the pace ...
Matthew 18:7 ... Woe to the WORLD ... we are not the world, the world is in opposition to the Children of God. This has nothing to do with loosing or not loosing salvation.

Matthew 18:8-9 ... Plucking out eyes and chopping off hands! ... So is it literal? Should our churches be full of mutilated Christians? ... Is it just hyperbole, Jesus just wanted to get your attention and didn't really mean it at all? ... I have heard both answers and am convinced in my heart that both are incorrect. It's placement in the block of text is not an accident. God just got through telling us how important His children are to Him and how harshly God will deal with people that mess with his kids. As a parent, I can completely understand that and relate. Then God pronounces a curse on the world and the people of the world that bring trouble on God's children (v.7). In v.10 God is about to warn the people of God to welcome their new siblings with open arms and in v.11 reminds us God's deepest desires on this subject. After this comes a section on the importance of going out there and finding God's lost sheep, rejoicing over their being found, and how to deal with it when the Goats and Tares stir up trouble in the family ... show them to the door and leave them to God. ["it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."]

So right smack in the middle is the part about Plucking out eyes and chopping off hands. We are the body of Christ. Part of one another. To save the Body, you would remove a diseased hand or eye. If there is one in the church (a goat or tare) that IS causing the children of God to stumble, then remove him. If there is something or someone in your life that is causing you to stumble, remove it from your life. The imagery is harsh because the stakes are eternal. Take the warning seriously and do what needs to be done.

I find Matthew 18 to be powerful, and humbling, but also encouraging. God really, really cares about us. I see nothing that leaves me fearful that I may loose God's love and every reason to trust that he will always call me forward and, if necessary, drag my stupid, stubborn, foolish self home.

I offer:
Matthew 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. ... [God is protecting me and my path; I may stumble, but He will not let me fall. I am God's precious child.]

Matthew 18:10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven. ... [I have angels assigned to me by God.]

Matthew 18:11 [For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.] ... [Jesus came to save, not to offer, not to try ... to do and succeed.]

Matthew 18:12 “What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? ... [If I go astray, God will come and find me and bring me home. He will never leave me nor forsake me.]

Matthew 18:14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish. ... [God's will ... which God has the power to work out ... is that NOT ONE = NONE ... of "these little ones" = "one of these little ones who believe in Me" (v.6) = the SAVED believe in Jesus {verses available upon request} ... perish. Loosing eternal life (salvation) sounds like perishing to me, and that is contrary to the will of God.]


I will stop here and not say with absolute certainty that it is "impossible" to loose your salvation. Such matters are above my pay grade. God has yet to consult with me on his decisions. However, I do not BELIEVE that it is something that a man can loose, because it was not something that a man did anything to obtain. For you and your position, I would be grateful if you would acknowledge that it is God's will that no one should loose their salvation.

I look forward to being shown what I have missed that you see in these verses that make them irrefutable proof that salvation can be lost. I do not believe that I have twisted, denied or danced around the scriptures in question.

 

[JLB]

What in the world are you referring to? Please explain yourself.

Where is the proof that John 3:16, 5:24 and 10:28 are "not in the original Scriptures"??

John 3:16, 5:24 and 10:28 are not scriptures.

When the original writings and letters of the New Testament were written, there were no Chapter and verse designations,
[scripture references].

These were added later by men.


In addition, there are some versions of the bible that are not legitimate, and are prohibited by the Forum to be referenced.

TOS 2.2 - Only scripture from accepted Christian bibles will be allowed to be posted on this board. The New World Translation and Book of Mormon are not considered Christian material on this site. Discussion about other, questionable sources , documents, writings or material is acceptable but will not be permitted to be used as a basis of support within a debate or discussion.

In addition, Paul writings, not scripture "tag's" are considered to be inspired.


Example: Eph 1:13-14 isn't Paul's writings and doesn't refer to a specific version of the bible, nor does it contain or reveal what Paul actually wrote.

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

The above is scripture from the NKJV of the bible.

TOS 2.1 -
We consider Paul's writings to be part of the inspired Word of God. This is a Christian forum and any posting(s) that is intended to purposely distort Paul's writings will not be tolerated.

I hope this clears up the confusion you are having.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I will stop here and not say with absolute certainty that it is "impossible" to loose your salvation.

Fair enough brother.


Thank you for you sincere honesty.




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

John 3:16, 5:24 and 10:28 are not scriptures.

When the original writings and letters of the New Testament were written, there were no Chapter and verse designations,
[scripture references].

These were added later by men.

I'm not going to play your games. One of the mods already addressed this silly game and said that citing a Scripture reference was good enough.

In addition, there are some versions of the bible that are not legitimate, and are prohibited by the Forum to be referenced.

My quotes are from the NIV. Is that one banned?

In addition, Paul writings, not scripture "tag's" are considered to be inspired.

Which I've quoted over and over.

Example: Eph 1:13-14 isn't Paul's writings and doesn't refer to a specific version of the bible, nor does it contain or reveal what Paul actually wrote.

Interesting. Then tell me what Paul did write, since you've made this claim.

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

The above is scripture from the NKJV of the bible.

So? How does the NKJV differ materially from the NIV or NASB? Please explain. If there isn't any explanation, then it can be easily assumed that there is no important difference. And therefore, your point is moot and makes no difference to the discussion.

You've made a lot of claims but explain precious few of any of them.

Why should anyone take these claims seriously when there is no evidence to back them up?

I hope this clears up the confusion you are having.
JLB

Actually, your comments do clear up why your views are so confused.

 

[atpollard]

Fair enough brother.
Thank you for your sincere honesty.
JLB

You are welcome.
Can you say with complete certainty that salvation "can" be lost?

John 6:37-40 [NKJV]
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[reba]

atpollard

Esau was a son who gave up his birthright

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
I would be interested in your thoughts on this and also Papa Zoom 's