One result of being in union with Christ

[Jim Parker]

What heresy are you accusing me of?

Added : Jim Parker

Addressed to wrong person.
OOOOOps

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Will you settle for discussion?

Yes, I would.

On the other hand, I am a Calvinist who believes in the Perseverance of the Saints, specifically that God can and will finish the good work which God began in us and those whom the Father fore-loved, he gave to the Son ... the Son will loose none of those given him by the Father, but will raise them up and glorify them on the last day.

Which is not "hyper-grace", nor is it "once saved always saved"

How and why is what you stated not "once saved always saved" (OSAS)?

Second point to get out of the way, is that God loved some before the foundation of the world, chose them, called them, gave them a new heart, Jesus Christ died for their sins, they have been sealed with the Holy Spirit (a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance) and God will finish what he started and glorify them, loosing none God has chosen. You may disagree, but this IS what I believe and am prepared to defend with scripture if requested. However, at this moment, there is no need to play scripture pong and vomit requested answers to questions you have not asked and the scripture supporting those answers, so I choose to leave it as a simple statement of my faith.

I'm in complete agreement with these. Of course, you probably have gathered from the debate that non-OSAS says there is a condition attached to retaining the promises of God after you receive them--the condition of continued faith (note I did not say 'works of the law'). I know that traditional OSAS agrees with that, except that it's argument is that the person will always believe and, therefore, will always satisfy the condition for continued faith. But we can get into detail about this later.

I like context, so let's take a look at more of Matthew 18 [NASB]

Good. So do I. This alone will go a long way to relieving the element of debate in favor of civil and honest discussion. I have noticed that the two big errors that false teachings are guilty of making are 1) ignoring context (local and global), and 2) failing to consider the whole counsel of God about a subject. The latter, particularly, is, IMO, actually the hallmark of false doctrine.

Matthew 18:5-6 set out two opposing options. The previous verses and the clause "who believe in Me" (v.6) clearly establish that the "children" being spoken of are God's children.

Which makes the passage so powerful.
So many passages are stripped of their obvious non-OSAS meaning by claiming that the 'believers' being spoken of are 'not really' believers, but instead insincere fakes posing as believers. In this passage, even the most ardent liar can not insist the believers being spoken of are 'not really' believers:

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble" (Matthew 18:6 NASB bold mine)

So, we agree on this point. Jesus is indeed speaking of genuine believers in Him, not fake 'not really' believers. (You'll have to get used to my frequent references to what I call the 'not really' doctrines of OSAS teaching, referring to all the places where OSAS says it is necessary to understand that the plain words of a passage 'don't really' mean what they say in order to remove any possibility that it's actually a non-OSAS passage).

I will grant that having "a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea" is both unpleasant and fatal. What makes you think that it is damnation?

I agree. By itself I would not take that as a reference to eternal damnation. It's the clear reference to "eternal fire" in vs.8 that establishes the fact that Jesus is indeed taking about eternal salvation here, and not rewards. Which is another reason why this passage is so powerful. It removes yet another avenue of escape for the ardent OSASer--the argument that a passage is talking about eternal rewards, not eternal salvation/eternal life. So that's two common OSAS arguments that can not be used by OSASer's in this passage here in Matthew 18:6-9 NASB to strip it of it's non-OSAS teaching. I frequently quote Mark's version of the teaching to show even more directly that this is an issue of a person going to eternal damnation, and not just suffering a loss of reward:

43“If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] " (Mark 9:43-44 NASB bold mine)

I ask this only because other places where Jesus wants to use a metaphor for the destruction of something rejected by God (damnation) he tends to use fire and especially the local trash heap at Gehenna where corpses were burned. Could drowning be a more temporal punishment than eternal punishment?

As I'm pointing out, Jesus is using the very clear metaphor of eternal fire (whatever the exact nature of that 'burning' really is) in this teaching. So it is in fact a teaching about going to eternal damnation, not just a teaching about loss of reward for the saved person. It's easy to see that being drowned in a horrible way is still better than the eternal damnation of the spirit in hell for stumbling a person who believes in Jesus (and taking them along with you to hell).

That's the point of bringing up the drowning in the sea issue. It's not there to somehow negate or minimize the punishment for causing people who believe in Jesus to stumble, and somehow stripping the passage of it's non-OSAS teaching. It's there to drive home the much more profound and horrible punishment for leading a genuine believer in Christ to stumble in such a way, so they, too, go to the place of eternal damnation. It would be better for a person to be simply drowned in the sea, as horrible as that is (a temporal punishment of body only) than to lead a believer astray and have, both, body and spirit cast into the eternal flame.

I'll stop here to see if there is any disagreement to discuss to this point. To summarize, the passage is powerful because 1) there's no way to honestly say this is about people who are 'not really' genuinely saved, and 2) the punishment being spoken about is clearly and beyond debate that of being sent to eternal damnation, not just losing rewards. It's important to note these, because these are two big ways OSAS deflects the possibility of a passage being non-OSAS.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

atpollard

Esau was a son who gave up his birthright

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
I would be interested in your thoughts on this and also Papa Zoom 's

Which, I will note, is a warning being spoken to believers. And which clearly dispels any notion that the Prodigal is always allowed to return home, or at the very least shows us the door may not always remain open for him to do so.

Look at the implications this passage has to hyper-grace OSAS, particularly. Hyper-grace doctrine says even if the son never comes home he still inherits the blessing. If even the son who tries to come home may not inherit the blessing he has forsaken, how much more the son who does not come home. Hmmm .

 

[Sparkey]

While perusing the thread, I noticed that the title phrase, "Union with God," was being used interchangeably with the word, "Relationship," or "Relationship with God".

I did a simple search of the KJV and was surprised to find that the word 'relationship' wasn't to be found in the bible. Yeah, I know... check other versions, right? It must be the fault of the king. That guy!? (Pardon me, ye ol' KJV fans but sometimes it's just semantics).

King James Version (KJV)​

No luck. The word, "Relationship," was not found in any of my online translations either.
But, Boy! were to lots of things written about 'Relationships'. Tons. Written all over the place by lots and lots of people. Just not in the Bible.

Quoting the search engine: "You Searched For "RELATIONSHIP" in the KJV Bible. No direct matches for your keyword exist..." But lucky me, there was an 'Advanced Search' feature that allowed me to search every bible translation as well as the entire website.

SEARCH THE BIBLE (Advanced)
You searched 'RELATIONSHIP'
... This searches not just Bible pages, but comments, notes, references, postings, and all pages on this entire website for your keyword, 'relationship'. Please use discretion as this Google service displays ads based on keywords you type, not ads we choose.​

Woo-Hoo! I hit the jackpot! There were:
Bible Verses About STRENGTHING OUR RELATIONSHIP with Jesus, Bible Verses About AGE DIFFERENCES IN RELATIONSHIPS, Bible Verses About FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS, Bible Verses About PARENT / CHILD RELATIONSHIPS, Bible Verses About our RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, Bible Verses About DATING AND RELATIONSHIPS, Bible Verses About [plain old] RELATIONSHIPS, Bible Verses About LOVE AND RELATIONSHIPS, Bible Verses About ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS

And the list went on and on for TEN (10) more pages of "Bible Verses About [all manner of] RELATIONSHIPS. It seems that Christians have a lot to say about RELATIONSHIPS. But the Bible? Not so much.

Why is that?

Spoiler: HINT

I suspect the reason can be found in our Command from The King of kings, "Abide in me." There may be and likely is a difference between relating to Him and abiding. I suspect it's a big difference. Maybe the difference highlights something about our differing points of view? It's worth a good think or two, ain't it?

Of course, fellow Disciples and students who may read this know that every journey begins with a first step. Here, as we join together in Christ, we are able to "celebrate first steps". You may remember having been told to, "Start small and celebrate progress." That sounds like sound advice, yes? Take this tiny step with me; consider a word-study comparing and contrasting 'Abide in Christ' with 'Relationships with God' --> then let me know what you find, please. We may want to start another thread so as to not cumber this one too much.

In my NLT Bible it reads: “Do not despise these small beginnings, for the Lord rejoices to see the work begin…” (Zechariah 4:10). Don’t you just love that? For me, this verse was kind of a way of God singing over me…letting me know that the “small beginnings” that feel like inchworm-progress to me, with my writings and thoughts, are delightful to Him.

I love words; yet it is words that fail me. Ever since the surgery I get all teary-eyed trying to express the emotion of knowing that the work is His, and He treasures my obedience, but it's more; He treasures me …even in the humble beginnings. Another verse that I have written on a note card, right beside that one, is one that I heard a sister quote…I think that they complement each other well…”…Get your fields ready; after that, build your house.” (Prov. 24:27) We are readying the fields for the Master of the harvest. His harvest.

The RAIN-SONG:

There once was a tiny drop of rain.
Just a single drop.
A single drop that falls. But as it falls; it calls.
The call is heard; the fire is gone out.​

James speaks of that FIRE. You know the Scripture I mean. How such a thing as small as our tongue compares to the rudder of a ship, or to a match able to ignite an entire forest. We are to ABIDE in him. Celebrate the tiny things. For we shall know Him, even as we are known.

But how?!? How can this be?

It's small things, I tell you. Very tiny in the scheme of things and yet... together, as we abide, He will make all the difference for us, for our Union in Him.

~Yours in Christ,

Sparrow​

 

[JLB]

I'm not going to play your games. One of the mods already addressed this silly game and said that citing a Scripture reference was good enough.

Can you show me from the scriptures where Jesus, quoted a scripture reference, and not the actual words of scripture.

Matthew 4:4 -
But He answered and said, “It is written, Duet 8:3

There is no knowledge, or understanding or power in the reference Duet 8:3

Maybe you consider Jesus, as just playing silly games with the devil?



JLB

 

[JLB]

You are welcome.
Can you say with complete certainty that salvation "can" be lost?

John 6:37-40 [NKJV]
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Salvation through faith, can be lost, because salvation is received at the end of your faith.

5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:5-9

IOW, salvation is the end result of a faith, the thing you hoped for, as you believed and continued in faith.

If you depart from the faith, and turn under persecution, to a doctrine of demons, in which you confess the antichrist is lord and savior, and prove your loyalty to him by taking his mark, will you be saved on the Day of judgement?

The answer is No.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Salvation through faith, can be lost, because salvation is received at the end of your faith.

Please show why "end of your faith" means "end of your life". I see no reason for such a leap.

And Jesus' words refutes that notion. "“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." These words are found in John 5:24.

So, when one believes, they HAVE eternal life. Not at the end of their life.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.JLB

I've never argued against the fact that some believers will believe for a while and then fall away from their faith. That isn't the issue.

Luke 8:13 doesn't say anything about loss of salvation.

 

[chessman]

e

it is necessary to understand that the plain words of a passage 'don't really' mean what they say in order to remove any possibility that it's actually a non-OSAS passage

The only person that has said "the plain words of a passage 'don't really' mean what they say" is you, in the above accusation. And repeatedly.

vs.8 that establishes the fact that Jesus is indeed taking about eternal salvation here, and not rewards.

He's specifically talking about eternal damnation for the stumbling blocks of the world in the verse, not for the little ones (who are converted). You are conflating the fate of stumbling blocks with the little ones. But as for 'rewards':

Matt 18:1b "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”​

I have noticed that the two big errors that false teachings are guilty of making are 1) ignoring context (local and global),

What's your view of the question posed in verse 1 that Jesus is illustrating an answer to in verse 8 and directly answering in 10?

I frequently quote Mark's version of the teaching to show even more directly that this is an issue of a person going to eternal damnation, and not just suffering a loss of reward:

Nobody has suggested that the one verse is not about the stumbling blocks of the world going to eternal damnation.

it is in fact a teaching about going to eternal damnation,

It is in fact a teaching about the stumbling blocks of the world going to eternal damnation, not converted little ones. Why someone would think it is a teaching about converted little ones (or de-converted little ones for that matter) going to Hell makes no sense. At least there's been no evidence/argument presented by you as to why someone should actually believe that the converted little ones also go the Hell ("along with them'). Just that you say they are "taken along".

As I'm pointing out, Jesus is using the very clear metaphor of eternal fire (whatever the exact nature of that 'burning' really is) in this teaching.

Yes He is. And He directs it directly to the stumbling blocks of the world, not toward the little ones the might stumble because of THEM. Yet you are trying to (and not very successfully) direct the eternal damnation toward the converted little ones. Odd, really.

So it is in fact a teaching about going to eternal damnation, not just a teaching about loss of reward for the saved person.

At least you said it's not "just" about loss of reward. But again, the passage never, not once, says or even suggests that the converted little ones are subject to the eternal damnation that the stumbling blocks of the world are subject to.

Matt 18:3 Jesus said “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.​

What you are suggesting is the 'de-conversion' of little ones back into stumbling blocks of the world. Which is not found in the passage.

It's easy to see that being drowned in a horrible way is still better than the eternal damnation of the spirit in hell for stumbling a person who believes in Jesus (and taking them along with you to hell).

Where in the world (pun intended) do you get the idea that a stumbling, yet converted, little one get's cast into the eternal fire (Hell)? It's NOT in this Text. You're just making this idea up, it seems. And repeating it over and over again until, I guess, you believe it.

That's the point of bringing up the drowning in the sea issue. It's not there to somehow negate or minimize the punishment for causing people who believe in Jesus to stumble, and somehow stripping the passage of it's non-OSAS teaching.

What??? So Jesus says the stumbling blocks of the world go to Hell within a passage that is talking about converted little ones stumbling because of them and you think Jesus' point of the stumbling block drowning in the sea being better than Hell somehow means the little ones also go to Hell??? That makes no sense.

Do you think this passage says that the little ones are drown in the sea or something? It doesn't.

It simply says drowning in the sea would be better than Hell. But the stumbling blocks are subject to both, not the converted little ones. And there's not a hint of 'taking along little ones with them' other than in your words.

It's there to drive home the much more profound and horrible punishment for leading a genuine believer in Christ to stumble in such a way, so they, too, go to the place of eternal damnation.

That's correct. What it's NOT there for is to drive home the much more non-contextual point of de-converting a little one back to the world. Stumbling is NOT de-salvation per the Bible verses I've previously posted. Which is about the time you said I wasn't capable of honest discussion as I recall.

It would be better for a person to be simply drowned in the sea, as horrible as that is (a temporal punishment of body only) than to lead a believer astray and have, both, body and spirit cast into the eternal flame.

True. That's the point. Simple, direct and straight to the point. Which, don't forget, is about who will be the greatest disciple in the kingdom. [Answer = the disciple(s) that do not despise one of the little ones, see v10] It's not about de-conversion of a little one back into a stumbling block of the world, however.

there's no way to honestly say this is about people who are 'not really' genuinely saved,

Umm, the passage discusses both the saved (the converted little ones) and the un-saved (the stumbling blocks of the world), honestly.

the punishment being spoken about is clearly and beyond debate that of being sent to eternal damnation, not just losing rewards.

The punishment being spoken about is clearly and beyond debate about the stumbling blocks of the world being punished and not the little ones who have been "converted".

 

[JLB]

Please show why "end of your faith" means "end of your life". I see no reason for such a leap.

Do you have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation?

JLB

 

[JLB]

And Jesus' words refutes that notion. "“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." These words are found in John 5:24.

So, when one believes, they HAVE eternal life. Not at the end of their life.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3


As long as you are "in Him", you have eternal life.

If you are removed from Him, then you are removed from the eternal life that is only found in Him.

Eternal life is contingent on being in Christ Jesus our Lord, which is by faith.

If you are found to be in Him at the end of a life that has remained "in Him", then it will be evident by the fruit of holiness that has been expressed through your life of faith.

The evidence that you are in Him, is the fruit of His life being expressed through you.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

and again

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

• Our faith, that expresses itself in the hope of eternal life, does so in a life of ever increasing obedience to the righteous and holy life within.

...everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself.

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
1 John 3:2-3


Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;


7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. 12 Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed. 14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears. Hebrews 12:7-17



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Please show why "end of your faith" means "end of your life". I see no reason for such a leap."

Do you have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation?

Your question doesn't address my request, so I'll take it that you're unable to show why "end of faith" means "end of life".

However, to answer your question, of course I have in Jesus Christ for salvation. In fact, since I have already believed in Him, I actually possess (HAVE) eternal life.

And those Jesus gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

So, on the basis of receivng eternal life, I WILL NEVER PERISH.

Your view is in stark contrast with Jesus' own words.

Why is that?

 

[FreeGrace]

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3
As long as you are "in Him", you have eternal life.

I'm really not at all interesting in mere opinions, but what Scripture says. So, where does Scripture say that "as long as you are "in Him", you have eternal life"??

If you are removed from Him, then you are removed from the eternal life that is only found in Him.

Again, this is mere opinion. What Scripture says that anyone has ever beem from the eternal life?

I have shown Scripture that says that eternal life is a gift of God, AND that God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 6:23 and 11:29.

Therefore, your opinion is refuted directly from Scripture.

Eternal life is contingent on being in Christ Jesus our Lord, which is by faith.

Actually, there is no such Scripture, as you well know. In fact our very salvation is contingent on being in the hand of Jesus and God Himself. This is what Jesus said about it in John 10 -
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

These are the words of Jesus; not my own opinion about it. v.28 is clear about the fact that for those who are given eternal life, they will never perish.

What should be clear is that the ONLY CONDITION for NEVER PERISHING is to receive eternal life.

When does one receive this gift of eternal life? Jesus answers that question in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

So, one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes. And, as Paul clearly taught, eternal life, being a gift of God, is irrevocable.

If you are found to be in Him at the end of a life that has remained "in Him", then it will be evident by the fruit of holiness that has been expressed through your life of faith.

That's not what Jesus promised to those He gives eternal life, which is when they believe initially.

Since no one has yet provided any verse that teaches that eternal life can be taken away, removed, revoked, lost, etc, there is no reason to assume such is true.

Esp since the Bible is clear that eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God. As previously shown numerous times.

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

I really can't imagine why anyone would try to pit the words of Paul against the words of Jesus. It just doesn't make any sense. The only conclusion is that you've terribly misunderstood what Jesus said.

 

[Mike]

you show me from the scriptures where Jesus, quoted a scripture reference, and not the actual words of scripture.

I have told you this a few times. Please do not impose rules above and beyond those of the forum or CFnet. Citing scripture with a link that will pop up with the text in the verse(s) meets our criteria for including scripture.

 

[Papa Zoom]

atpollard

Esau was a son who gave up his birthright

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
I would be interested in your thoughts on this and also Papa Zoom 's

Interesting because I just read Hebrews about 5 times for a book I'm reading. I'll have to go back and reread this section and give it some further thought.

 

[reba]

God does cool stuff

 

[atpollard]

How and why is what you stated not "once saved always saved" (OSAS)?

Time is short, so let me grab a bite while I can.
It comes down to the definition of "saved". If by "saved" you mean that you are one of those whom God foreknew and drew to the Son, one of His sheep who hear his voice and follow, someone who has had his heart of stone removed and replaced with a heart of flesh in order that he may now delight in the Law of the Lord and His precepts, one sealed with the Holy Spirit as a deposit for the day of redemption and one whom Jesus said he will not loose and will raise up on the last day ... what is refereed to in Calvinism as "the Elect" and "Perseverance of the Saints", then ... Yes, I believe that 'once saved, always saved'.

However, in online debates, that is almost NEVER the working definition that will be thrown into my face. Instead "saved" means some reprobate who raised his hand (once) while all eyes were closed and mumbled some words that made him feel good for a whole week before he went back to his reprobate life style and never gave God another thought. Then some 'you can fall from grace' advocate is going to accuse Calvinism of teaching that this reprobate is saved and will still get into heaven. Furthermore, because I claim to believe what early church fathers (including the Apostle Paul) taught, that which John Calvin reasserted in response to the Arminian heresy, that I MUST also believe that this reprobate was "once saved, always saved".

Thus I am reluctant to embrace the term (OSAS) not because I believe salvation can be lost, but because the expression is too often abused. The Chosen will Persevere makes it much clearer that I reject the strawman 'what if' that many wish to stick to OSAS.

(Since this is A&T, let me insert MY favorite verses on Perseverance.)

John 6:35-40 [NIV]
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:44-47 [NIV]
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Time is short, so let me grab a bite while I can.
It comes down to the definition of "saved". If by "saved" you mean that you are one of those whom God foreknew and drew to the Son, one of His sheep who hear his voice and follow, someone who has had his heart of stone removed and replaced with a heart of flesh in order that he may now delight in the Law of the Lord and His precepts, one sealed with the Holy Spirit as a deposit for the day of redemption and one whom Jesus said he will not loose and will raise up on the last day ... what is refereed to in Calvinism as "the Elect" and "Perseverance of the Saints", then ... Yes, I believe that 'once saved, always saved'.

However, in online debates, that is almost NEVER the working definition that will be thrown into my face. Instead "saved" means some reprobate who raised his hand (once) while all eyes were closed and mumbled some words that made him feel good for a whole week before he went back to his reprobate life style and never gave God another thought. Then some 'you can fall from grace' advocate is going to accuse Calvinism of teaching that this reprobate is saved and will still get into heaven. Furthermore, because I claim to believe what early church fathers (including the Apostle Paul) taught, that which John Calvin reasserted in response to the Arminian heresy, that I MUST also believe that this reprobate was "once saved, always saved".

Since this is my thread and OP, I will, for the record, state that I fully agree with your explanation, and would NEVER ever suggest that raising a hand, walking an aisle, repeating any kind of prayer, saves anyone.

My consistent point is that "saved" refers to anyone who has placed their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as Savior.

That said, I don't agree with the Calvinist doctrine of the "perseverance of the saints" since Jesus was clear that not all who believe will persevere. The second soil clearly didn't persevere. Luke 8:13

Thus I am reluctant to embrace the term (OSAS) not because I believe salvation can be lost, but because the expression is too often abused. The Chosen will Persevere makes it much clearer that I reject the strawman 'what if' that many wish to stick to OSAS.

The preferred term is "eternal security".

(Since this is A&T, let me insert MY favorite verses on Perseverance.)

John 6:35-40 [NIV]
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:44-47 [NIV]
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Eternal security is not about perseverance, but preservation. God has promised to preserve the believer, but He hasn't promised that all believers will persevere.

In fact, those who do persevere will be rewarded.
2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

What He will deny us is the privilege of reigning with Him. If context matters.

Some translations have "disown" instead of "deny", but the Greek word doesn't mean "disown".

 

[atpollard]

That said, I don't agree with the Calvinist doctrine of the "perseverance of the saints" since Jesus was clear that not all who believe will persevere. The second soil clearly didn't persevere. Luke 8:13

No disagreement from me that the seed planed in the second soil did not continue to grow and bear fruit. The difficulty that I have with your interpretation is that Jesus said that the seed is the Word. If the seed does not grow in you to produce fruit, is that really "saved"? I can't say for sure that it is and I will not say for certain that it is not. The parable (assuming you think the story has a moral lesson and 'extended metaphor' if you think that it does not ... I don't want to get in trouble over that again) is not clear enough for me to stand firm on a conclusion as important as eternal security. However, I can contrast that to the rather unambiguous statement of Jesus that “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6:44) which tells me clearly that:
1. God draws.
2. Only those drawn come to Jesus.
3. Those that come to Jesus, He WILL RAISE UP at the last day. (no maybe)

So was the second soil in Luke 8 drawn? (I don't know.)
Did the second soil come to Jesus? (I don't know.)
Will the second soil be raised up at the last day (I don't know, but probably not.)
Is John 6:44 wrong? (Oh heck no!)

So I cannot reject the clear teaching for an assumption based on a far less clear story about seeds. What I learn from Luke 8 and the seeds is that the same word can be heard by different people and have very different results. I just can't go beyond that without running afoul of other scriptures.

 

[FreeGrace]

No disagreement from me that the seed planed in the second soil did not continue to grow and bear fruit. The difficulty that I have with your interpretation is that Jesus said that the seed is the Word. If the seed does not grow in you to produce fruit, is that really "saved"?

I don't see 'producing fruit' to mean getting saved. We know how one gets saved from a number of verses, but in keeping with the context, the immediately preceding verse (v.12) says: Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

While the verse is stated in the negative, the point is that one is saved when they believe the Word (seed). Producing fruit is the natural outcome of being saved.

However, producing fruit isn't guaranteed, as noted by Jesus in v.13 and 14. In v.13, the times of testing will interfere with fruit bearing, and in v.14 the plant (saved person) is "choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature."

I can't say for sure that it is and I will not say for certain that it is not. The parable (assuming you think the story has a moral lesson and 'extended metaphor' if you think that it does not ... I don't want to get in trouble over that again) is not clear enough for me to stand firm on a conclusion as important as eternal security. However, I can contrast that to the rather unambiguous statement of Jesus that “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6:44) which tells me clearly that:
1. God draws.
2. Only those drawn come to Jesus.
3. Those that come to Jesus, He WILL RAISE UP at the last day. (no maybe)

As to #2, who are those who are drawn to Jesus? The very next verse tells us: "It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

So, who are taught by God? All will be. Which isn't the same as who actually "learned from Him".

The point is that God has taught everyone, which I don't believe means the gospel has been taught to everyone, but the fact of God's existence and divine nature, per Rom 1:19-20. It's only those who listened and learned from those lessons who will be drawn to Jesus.

So was the second soil in Luke 8 drawn? (I don't know.)

The fact that Jesus said they believed proves that they were drawn, if John 6:44 means anything.

Did the second soil come to Jesus? (I don't know.)

Jesus said they believed. Hence, they were saved, per v.12

Will the second soil be raised up at the last day (I don't know, but probably not.)

Why not? Where does the Bible say that those who have believed may end up in the lake of fire? The very OP of this thread shows that everyone who has believed has been sealed with the Holy Spirit, specifically for the day of redemption.

Is John 6:44 wrong? (Oh heck no!)

Of course not. And don't forget to add v.45, which answers the question of who gets drawn. ;)

 

[atpollard]

atpollard
Esau was a son who gave up his birthright
I would be interested in your thoughts on this and also Papa Zoom 's

Hebrews 12:14-17 (several translations for a quick comparison)

[ESV] 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

[HCSB] 14 Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness—without it no one will see the Lord. 15 Make sure that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no root of bitterness springs up, causing trouble and by it, defiling many. 16 And make sure that there isn’t any immoral or irreverent person like Esau, who sold his birthright in exchange for one meal. 17 For you know that later, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected because he didn’t find any opportunity for repentance, though he sought it with tears.

[NIV] 14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done.

[NKJV] 14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

[NLT] 14 Work at living in peace with everyone, and work at living a holy life, for those who are not holy will not see the Lord. 15 Look after each other so that none of you fails to receive the grace of God. Watch out that no poisonous root of bitterness grows up to trouble you, corrupting many. 16 Make sure that no one is immoral or godless like Esau, who traded his birthright as the firstborn son for a single meal. 17 You know that afterward, when he wanted his father’s blessing, he was rejected. It was too late for repentance, even though he begged with bitter tears.

[YLT] 14 peace pursue with all, and the separation, apart from which no one shall see the Lord, 15 looking diligently over lest any one be failing of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up may give trouble, and through this many may be defiled; 16 lest any one be a fornicator, or a profane person, as Esau, who in exchange for one morsel of food did sell his birthright, 17 for ye know that also afterwards, wishing to inherit the blessing, he was disapproved of, for a place of reformation he found not, though with tears having sought it.


"Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person[1] like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.[2] For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.[3]"

[1] Our moral conduct has always been important. There are blessings reserved exclusively for the pure in heart:

Matthew 5:8 [NKJV] "Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God."


[2] Esau sold his birthright, freely, willingly, cheaply:

Genesis 25:29-34 [NKJV]
29 Now Jacob cooked a stew; and Esau came in from the field, and he was weary. 30 And Esau said to Jacob, “Please feed me with that same red stew, for I am weary.” Therefore his name was called Edom.
31 But Jacob said, “Sell me your birthright as of this day.”
32 And Esau said, “Look, I am about to die; so what is this birthright to me?”
33 Then Jacob said, “Swear to me as of this day.”
So he swore to him, and sold his birthright to Jacob. 34 And Jacob gave Esau bread and stew of lentils; then he ate and drank, arose, and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.

As Christians, would we ever sell our birthright of intimacy with God as cheaply as Esau sold his birthright?


[3] Genesis 27:36 And Esau said, “Is he not rightly named Jacob? For he has supplanted me these two times. He took away my birthright, and now look, he has taken away my blessing!” And he said, “Have you not reserved a blessing for me?”
Genesis 27:41 So Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing with which his father blessed him, and Esau said in his heart, “The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then I will kill my brother Jacob.”
Esau wanted to sell his birthright (the inheritance and the blessing of the firstborn) and have it too. Look who he blames: "He took away my birthright" ... "then I will kill my brother Jacob." There is no hiding the darkness in that heart. Jacob did not 'take' the birthright, Esau freely and willingly sold it. God is even clear why ... "Thus Esau despised his birthright." (v.34)


So which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Romans 9:10-13 [NKJV] And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Exodus 33:19 [NKJV] Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

1 Samuel 16:7 [NKJV] But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

Exodus 9:12 [NKJV] But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

Questions above my pay grade.