Only ONE TRUE GOD.

[jgredline]

Peter Freed from Prison

Acts 12:5-19
5 Peter was therefore kept in prison, but constant prayer was offered to God for him by the church. 6 And when Herod was about to bring him out, that night Peter was sleeping, bound with two chains between two soldiers; and the guards before the door were keeping the prison. 7 Now behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him, and a light shone in the prison; and he struck Peter on the side and raised him up, saying, "Arise quickly!" And his chains fell off his hands. 8 Then the angel said to him, "Gird yourself and tie on your sandals"; and so he did. And he said to him, "Put on your garment and follow me." 9 So he went out and followed him, and did not know that what was done by the angel was real, but thought he was seeing a vision. 10 When they were past the first and the second guard posts, they came to the iron gate that leads to the city, which opened to them of its own accord; and they went out and went down one street, and immediately the angel departed from him.

11 And when Peter had come to himself, he said, "Now I know for certain that the Lord has sent His angel, and has delivered me from the hand of Herod and from all the expectation of the Jewish people."

12 So, when he had considered this, he came to the house of Mary, the mother of John whose surname was Mark, where many were gathered together praying. 13 And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a girl named Rhoda came to answer. 14 When she recognized Peter's voice, because of her gladness she did not open the gate, but ran in and announced that Peter stood before the gate. 15 But they said to her, "You are beside yourself!" Yet she kept insisting that it was so. So they said, "It is his angel."

16 Now Peter continued knocking; and when they opened the door and saw him, they were astonished. 17 But motioning to them with his hand to keep silent, he declared to them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, "Go, tell these things to James and to the brethren." And he departed and went to another place.

18 Then, as soon as it was day, there was no small stir among the soldiers about what had become of Peter. 19 But when Herod had searched for him and not found him, he examined the guards and commanded that they should be put to death.

And he went down from Judea to Caesarea, and stayed there.


Mec
Nice try. but in this context this is mearly ''AN ANGEL'' not ''THE ANGEL'' of the Lord. Go back to the verse 7 and the answer is there....

 

[jgredline]

Mec

Take a little time and study this....

To save space, I will not add all the actual scriptures here. For the sake of context, I have provided the book, chapter and verses for you to look up. I will be using the NKJV and ESV translations.

There are two terms that are used to describe the pre-incarnate Christ in the Old Testament.. For now I will give some very simple explanations as to what they mean.

CChristophany : These are appearances of the Lord Jesus Christ in the flesh. In particularly the OT. Some liberal theologians say there is no such thing as a Christophany and others will say that it is Christ appearing to people after the resurrection. This is simply not true as will be proved down below. A Christophony is Jesus pre-incarnate in the OT.. For the trinitarian this poses no problems as it affirms the deity of Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.

Theophany: The Old Testament also records a number of theophanies. A theophany is “an appearance of God.†In these theophanies God took on various visible forms to show himself to people. God appeared to Abraham ( Gen. 18:133 ), Jacob ( Gen. 32:2830 ), the people of Israel (as a pillar of cloud by day and fire by night: Ex. 13:2122 ), the elders of Israel ( Ex. 24:911 ), Manoah and his wife ( Judg. 13:2122 ), Isaiah ( Isa. 6:1 ), and others.

A much greater visible manifestation of God than these Old Testament theophanies was found in the person of Jesus Christ himself. He could say, “He who has seen me has seen the Father†( John 14:9 ). And John contrasts the fact that no one has ever seen God with the fact that Gods only Son has made him known to us: “No one has ever seen God; the only begotten God, 4 who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known†( John 1:18 , authors translation). Furthermore, Jesus is “the image of the invisible God†( Col. 1:15 ), and is “the bright radiance of the glory of God†and is “the exact representation of his nature†( Heb. 1:3 authors translation). Thus, in the person of Jesus we have a unique visible manifestation of God in the New Testament that was not available to believers who saw theophanies in the Old Testament.

But how will we see God in heaven? We will never be able to see or know all of God, for “his greatness is unsearchable†( Ps. 145:3 ; cf . John 6:46 ; 1 Tim. 1:17 ; 6:16 ; 1 John 4:12 , which were mentioned above). And we will not be able to seeat least with our physical eyesthe spiritual being of God. Nevertheless, Scripture says that we will see God himself. Jesus says, “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God †( Matt. 5:8 ). We will be able to see the human nature of Jesus, of course ( Rev. 1:7 ). But it is not clear in exactly what sense we will be able to “see4 the Father and the Holy Spirit, or the divine nature of God the Son ( cf . Rev. 1:4 ; 4:23 , 5 ; 5:6 ). Perhaps the nature of this “seeing†will not be known to us until we reach heaven.

Although what we see will not be an exhaustive vision of God, it will be a completely true and clear and real vision of God. We shall see “face to face†( 1 Cor. 13:12 ) and “we shall see him as he is†( 1 John 3:2 ). The most remarkable description of the open, close fellowship with God that we shall experience is seen in the fact that in the heavenly city “the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and his servants shall worship him; they shall see his face and his name shall be on their foreheads†( Rev. 22:34 ).

When we realize that God is the perfection of all that we long for or desire, that he is the summation of everything beautiful or desirable, then we realize that the greatest joy of the life to come will be that we “shall see his face.4 This seeing of God “face to face†has been called the beatific vision meaning “the vision that makes us blessed or happy†(“beatific†is from two Latin words, beatus “blessed,†and facere “to makeâ€Â). To look at God changes us and makes us like him: “We shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is †( 1 John 3:2 ; cf . 2 Cor. 3:18 ). This vision of God will be the consummation of our knowing God and will give us full delight and joy for all eternity: “in your presence there is fulness of joy, in your right hand are pleasures for evermore†( Ps. 16:11 ).



When He appeared to Hagar, she recognized that she was in the presence of God; she referred to Him as “the-God-Who-Sees“ (Gen. 16:13).

While Hagar was in the desert at Shur, on the way to Egypt, the Angel of the Lord came to her. This was the Lord Jesus in one of His preincarnate appearances, known as a Christophany. He counseled her to return and submit to Sarai, and promised that her son would become head of a great nation. That promise, of course, is fulfilled in the Arab people. The words Return ... and submit have marked great turning points in the lives of many who have had dealings with God. Hagars exclamation in verse 13 might be paraphrased, You are a God who may b seen, for she said, Have I also here seen Him who sees me? She named the well Beer Lahai Roi (literally, well of the One who lives and sees me).

Speaking to Abraham on Mount Moriah, the Angel identified Himself as “the Lord †(?Heb.? YHWH , or Jehovah ; Gen. 22:13-19).

 

[jgredline]

Mec
Here are a few more examples.......

Speaking to Abraham on Mount Moriah, the Angel identified Himself as “the Lord †(?Heb.? YHWH , or Jehovah ; Gen. 22:13-19).

To offer Isaac was surely the supreme test of Abrahams faith. God had promised to give Abraham a numberless posterity through his son. Isaac could have been as much as twenty-five at this time, and he was unmarried. If Abraham slew him, how could the promise be fulfilled? According to Hebrews 11:19, Abraham believed that even if he slew his son, God would raise him from the dead. This faith was remarkable because there was no recorded case of resurrection up to this time in the worlds history. When Isaac asked, Where is the lamb?, his father replied, God will provide for Himself the lamb. This promise was not ultimately fulfilled by the ram of verse 13 but by the Lamb of God (John 1:29).

There are two outstanding symbols of Christ in this chapter. Isaac is the first: an only son, loved by his father, willing to do his fathers will, received back from the dead in a figure. The ram is the second: an innocent victim died as a substitute for another, its blood was shed, and it was a burnt offering wholly consumed for God. Someone has said that, in providing the ram as a substitute for Isaac, God spared Abrahams heart a pang He would not spare His own. The Angel of the Lord in verses 11 and 15, as in all the Old Testament, is the Lord Jesus Christ. Abraham named the place The-Lord-Will-Provide (Jehovah-jireh) (v. 14). This is one of the seven compound names for God in the OT . The others are:

Jehovah-RophekhaThe Lord who heals you(Ex. 15:26).

Jehovah-NissiThe Lord my banner(Ex. 17:8-15).

Jehovah-ShalomThe Lord our peace(Judg. 6:24).

Jehovah-RoiThe Lord my Shepherd(Ps. 23:1).

Jehovah-TsidkenuThe Lord our righteousness(Jer. 23:6).

Jehovah-ShammahThe Lord is present(Ezek. 48:35).

The Lord swore by Himself because He couldnt swear by anyone greater (Heb. 6:13). Gods promise here, confirmed by His oath, includes the blessing of the Gentile nations through Christ (see Gal. 3:16). In verse 17c God adds to the already vast blessing promised: Abrahams seed would possess the gate of his enemies. This means that his descendants would occupy the place of authority over those who would oppose them. The capture of the city gate meant the fall of the city itself

Jacob heard the Angel introduce Himself as the God of Bethel (Gen. 31:11-13).

The angel of God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob.' I answered, 'Here I am.' And he said, 'Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted, for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Enough said on this verse.

When blessing Joseph, Israel used the names “God†and “the Angel†interchangeably (Gen. 48:15, 16).

And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The Angel which redeemed me from all evil (Who else could this Angel be other than the Lord Jesus Christ), bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow bb grow: Heb. as fishes do increase into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

At the burning bush, it was the “Angel of the Lord †who appeared (Ex. 3:2), but Moses “hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God†(Ex. 3:6).

The Lord appeared to him in a bush that burned with fire but ... was not consumed. The bush suggests the glory of God, before which he was told to stand with unshod feet. It might also foreshadow Jehovahs dwelling in the midst of His people without their being consumed. The word holy occurs here for the first time in the Bible. By removing his sandals, Moses acknowledged that the place was holy.God reassures Moses that He is the God of his forefathers Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. So the Angel of the Lord was the Pre-incarnite Jesus Christ.

The Lord who went before Israel in a pillar of cloud (Ex. 13:21) was none other than the Angel of God†(Ex. 14:19).

Exodus 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night.

Exodus 14:19 And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.

Clearly the LORD and the Angel of God are both in the same.

Gideon feared that he would die because, in seeing the Angel of the Lord , he had seen God (Judg. 6:22, 23).

Sensing that he was talking to the Lord, Gideon asked for a sign. Then he prepared an offering of a young goat and of unleavened bread. When the Angel ... touched the offering with his staff and it was consumed by fire, Gideon knew he was in the Lords presence and feared he would die. But the Lord assured him with the words Peace be with you, and Gideon there upon built an altar and named the place Jehovah-Shalom (The-Lord-Is-Peace). Now I ask. Would an Angel who is not God allow himself to be sacraficed to? The Answer is NO. The Angel of the Lord is clearly Jesus Christ.

Judges 6:22-23 Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the Lord. So Gideon said, "Alas, O Lord God! For I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face."

Then the Lord said to him, "Peace be with you; do not fear, you shall not die."

I don't see how I can explian it more clearly than the scriptures.

The Angel of the Lord told Manoah that His name was Wonderful (Judg. 13:15-20), one of the names of God (Isa. 9:6).

Judges 13:15-20 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You." 16 And the Angel of the Lord said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the Lord." (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the Lord.) 17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" 18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?"19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on-- 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. 22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" 23 But his wife said to him, "If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time." Again we see here the Pre-Incarnite Jesus Christ..

When Jacob struggled with the Angel, he struggled with God (Hos. 12:3, 4).

He took his brother by the heel in the womb, And in his strength he struggled with God. Yes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed; He wept, and sought favor from Him. He found Him in Bethel, And there He spoke to us--

These are convincing proofs that when the Angel of the Lord is referred to in the OT, the reference is to deity.

 

[mutzrein]

Angels are spirit beings and yet they are not God, I agree. The Father is spirit being and He is the Almighty One and the Father is God, I agree. You have said too many things about spirits, angels, and the Father, but what about Jesus? Is Jesus spirit being? Is Jesus a human being? Who is Jesus? Being the Son of God, what does that mean in terms of spirit, human being, created spirit being, etc.? Please have your answer in one word as much as possible to make yourself clear and not vague.

One word? Why do you insist one word? Can one define the son of God in one word?

 

[scorpia]

One word? Why do you insist one word? Can one define the son of God in one word?

Why not? Is the Son of God spirit? Is the Son of God the Lord? Is the Son of God the God (himself)? Is the Son of God man?

God, spirit, man, etc., aren't they in one word?

 

[Imagican]

scorpia,

How about let's simply USE what God, Christ and His apostles USED: The Son of God. Is that 'simple' enough?

NO, not The Son, God, but EXACTLY what we have been offered; Christ, The Son of God. For to 'create' this, Christ = God is to take away from what has been offered and insert what men have chosen to 'create'. I, instead, choose to follow the words offered by God, the apostles and Christ Himself.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

j,

I will OPENLY admit that I am NOT a scholar of ANYTHING. Whether that be the Bible as a whole, or the original languages that it was written in. But I do know this, you mince words in order to 'back up' a 'man-made' doctrine. This is NOT a difficult thing to do even when the explanations make NO sense. The CC has proven that this is possible for thousands of years now. Either simply ignore what 'doesn't fit', or alter it to mean whatever they 'want' it to.

Now, a SIMPLE question for you. If this 'angel of the Lord' is as you believe; Jesus Christ, then WHY would Christ need be 'born in the flesh' if He was simply able to 'take on' the flesh 'at will'? Your explanation of this 'angel of the Lord' BEING Chirst is quite shaky and DEFINITELY debatable. BUT, there are MANY things that you could 'choose' to believe and if you desired to believe it ENOUGH, God Himself will offer 'strong delusion' so that you will 'have your proof'. And doesn't it ALL boil down to this simple FACT. You WILL believe what 'you choose' to believe NO MATTER WHAT?

I have read The Word MANY times and with humility and prayer for understanding. If my understanding is 'wrong', then it is 'wrong'. However, I will testify to the FACT that God has wrought much positive change in my life since my acceptance of His Son into my heart. I have witnessed miracles beyond ANYTHING that I would have believed possible before actually witnessing them.

So, I can say this; OBVIOUSLY a COMPLETE understanding of EVERYTHING concerning God OR His Son is NOT NEEDED in order for God AND His Son to become a 'part' of one's life. I will understand what is NEEDED for me to understand and that is God's will, not mine or yours.

There is NEED for many parts of the 'same' body. We KNOW some of the 'reasons' for this and perhaps there are many others that we are ONLY dimly aware of. I MUST be satisfied with what has been offered or else 'run around' with MUCH DOUBT and UNCERTAINTY. What I have been offered I AM SURE OF. Much of what others offer I AM NOT.

Therefore, I WILL place my faith and trust in The God that has brought SO MUCH into my life that was once barren and void. I have been warned by Christ AND the apostles to 'trust in NO MAN'. I will heed HIS words above those of ANY man.

Christ told His apostles that He WAS/IS The Son of God. That is plenty 'good enough' for me. The insistence that man has inposed in his willful definitions of Christ according to 'their' understanding means little if ANYTHING to me when it has the possibility to contradict what has been offered FROM THE SOURCE of ALL understanding and wisdom. I need know NOTHING other than 'Christ crucified'. That is the saving grace that has been offered and this I accept with 'open arms' and an 'open heart'. EVERYTHING else is WAY down the list in import. Especially 'man-made' doctrine designed to 'keep me bound' in the same chains of those of the 'past'. I am FREE now and it is a 'freedom' that I cherish and appreciate beyond allowing 'other men' to 'put me back'.

So, this is what 'I understand'. It really raises hackles in some, (especially those 'caught up' in 'man-made' tradition), for these are ENVIOUS of what I have been given and wish for NOTHING more than for me to 'be as they have 'chosen' to be'. I will not. I WILL NOT 'give up' what I have been given for 'ANY MAN' or organization. Not worth it. For I have experienced the "LOVE" of God and since that moment wouldn't trade it for ANYTHING ON THIS PLANET.


MEC

 

[scorpia]

scorpia,

How about let's simply USE what God, Christ and His apostles USED: The Son of God. Is that 'simple' enough?

That's not how I do understand what you're saying but instead, simply agree with how you do understand whatever you read from the bible. ok, I will not insist my query to you since I do understand now where you are really coming from. No problem.

 

[mutzrein]

scorpia,

That's not how I do understand what you're saying but instead, simply agree with how you do understand whatever you read from the bible. ok, I will not insist my query to you since I do understand now where you are really coming from. No problem.

What's the situation now scorpia? Are you still looking for and answer from me or has Imagican done it?

 

[scorpia]

What's the situation now scorpia? Are you still looking for and answer from me or has Imagican done it?

I'm still on with you, Imagician has just made a side dish.

 

[mutzrein]

'Side dish' - have to smile at that. Could that be 'side issue'?

Scorpia - I'm trying to get to grips with what you are asking.

You say (and so does most of Christendom it seems) that Jesus is God and you seem to be mystified by my ability to accept Jesus as the son of God – but not God. So therefore you continue to ask, if he is not God, what do I believe him to be.

Firstly then, is this what you are asking and have I got your reasoning right?

Forgive me if I am wrong and please correct please if I am. Now on one hand you indicate that relationship with God is not gained from an academic understanding of a doctrine based on scripture. And I agree with this.

You also seem to be saying that revelation is not from scripture but direct from God – with whom of course you have relationship. In part I agree again. I believe revelation from God may be direct but it also may be through a myriad of other means – according to what God chooses.

Now I have clearly stated that Jesus is not God. And those who have their belief in this doctrine point to scripture to refute what I say. As a matter of fact I have often (with others) shown from scripture a different understanding of what scripture says of Jesus. Of course trinitarians cannot accept this because they have been taught what certain scripture means and cannot or are not prepared to see any other meaning.

So this creates another question in my mind.
Christendom says that Jesus is God. Where do they get this from? Answer: scripture.
And you also say that Jesus is God. So this is the question. Is your understanding of this notion based on something you have been told, or read in scripture, or did you receive this ‘knowledge’ by revelation. So if you are not using scripture to support your belief, what supports it?

 

[scorpia]

'Side dish' - have to smile at that. Could that be 'side issue'?

Not really but just like he's offering me a boiled vegie instead of plain rice which we usually eat.

[quote:4f720]Scorpia - I'm trying to get to grips with what you are asking.

You say (and so does most of Christendom it seems) that Jesus is God and you seem to be mystified by my ability to accept Jesus as the son of God – but not God. So therefore you continue to ask, if he is not God, what do I believe him to be.

Actually your belief about Jesus is also same belief that most Christians in our country hold on to in their life, hence when asked by such kind of question, they just deliberately stick to that answer like yours without any explanation at all.

Firstly then, is this what you are asking and have I got your reasoning right?

Bulls-eye mutz.

Forgive me if I am wrong and please correct please if I am. Now on one hand you indicate that relationship with God is not gained from an academic understanding of a doctrine based on scripture. And I agree with this.
VERy well then, you seem to be in the right mood and composure today.

You also seem to be saying that revelation is not from scripture but direct from God

Indeed I do say that and it is not seem but surely, it is really that way with God.

– with whom of course you have relationship.

You can forget all about myself for the meantime and focus yourself to the Lord God only.

In part I agree again.

Agree with God always, not with anyone else, even with me because you can always come to God and ask God what you want/need.

I believe revelation from God may be direct but it also may be through a myriad of other means – according to what God chooses.

Whatever but surely not in a mute and deaf method or means.

Now I have clearly stated that Jesus is not God. And those who have their belief in this doctrine point to scripture to refute what I say.

I know but is Jesus alive and true today? If yes, what is He now if Jesus is not God? I know Jesus is not the scripture.

As a matter of fact I have often (with others) shown from scripture a different understanding of what scripture says of Jesus. Of course trinitarians cannot accept this because they have been taught what certain scripture means and cannot or are not prepared to see any other meaning.

But what truth can you get from the scripture if the scripture itself says that Jesus is the Way, and the Truth,......... EVerybody needs to come to and talk to Jesus himself for Jesus is the TRUTH. The scripture is not God, it is neither Jesus nor the TRUTH.

So this creates another question in my mind.
Christendom says that Jesus is God. Where do they get this from? Answer: scripture.

That is clearly and definitely what you get from them but not with what I am telling you. Jesus is God because we learned and still learning it from the Lord Jesus himself, the alive and true Almighty God of all ages.

And you also say that Jesus is God. So this is the question. Is your understanding of this notion based on something you have been told, or read in scripture, or did you receive this ‘knowledge’ by revelation.

By the revelation of the Lord God Jesus Christ himself who came in to our life in the month of July in the year 2001 and still on up to this very date, not just come in but sup with us too.

So if you are not using scripture to support your belief, what supports it?

[/quote:4f720]
The Lord God Jesus Christ himself who always send us His Holy Spirit to let us feel His physical prsence whenever we are praying or having a deep thought of Him apart from His physical presece with us during tutorial sessions.

As far as I know, I am the one who is doing the cross examination on you and yet I am the one now being put on cross examination. Anyway, it doesn't matter at all with me and you can go on and on with whatever you wish to do.

 

[mutzrein]

'Side dish' - have to smile at that. Could that be 'side issue'?

Not really but just like he's offering me a boiled vegie instead of plain rice which we usually eat.

Excellent – solid food in any case.

Scorpia - I'm trying to get to grips with what you are asking.
You say (and so does most of Christendom it seems) that Jesus is God and you seem to be mystified by my ability to accept Jesus as the son of God – but not God. So therefore you continue to ask, if he is not God, what do I believe him to be.

Actually your belief about Jesus is also same belief that most Christians in our country hold on to in their life, hence when asked by such kind of question, they just deliberately stick to that answer like yours without any explanation at all.

Mmmm OK – that’s interesting. Do I understand you to say that Christians in your country DO NOT believe that Jesus is God.
Two questions arise for me. 1. In your view are they in fact Christians, or do they think they are Christians? 2 What answer am I deliberately sticking to without explanation.

Firstly then, is this what you are asking and have I got your reasoning right?

Bulls-eye mutz.

Great – looks like we may be getting somewhere although I have to admit that your means of communicating – perhaps the language used is hard for me to follow.

Forgive me if I am wrong and please correct please if I am. Now on one hand you indicate that relationship with God is not gained from an academic understanding of a doctrine based on scripture. And I agree with this.

VERy well then, you seem to be in the right mood and composure today.

And this is what I mean – I my view it has nothing to do with ‘mood’ or ‘composure’

You also seem to be saying that revelation is not from scripture but direct from God

Indeed I do say that and it is not seem but surely, it is really that way with God.

And I say just as surely that any revelation from God (if it truly is revelation - as opposed to an academic acceptance of something) is by means of the spirit of God which is quickened to our spirits. And I have found that the catalyst for the revelation maybe scripture – or any other medium which God chooses.

– with whom of course you have relationship.

You can forget all about myself for the meantime and focus yourself to the Lord God only.

I was trying to convey the fact that revelation stems from relationship rather than academic knowledge. But as far as I am concerned – my relationship to God, my heavenly Father is by means of the Spirit and made possible through Christ, my Lord and saviour.

In part I agree again.

Agree with God always, not with anyone else, even with me because you can always come to God and ask God what you want/need.

I think you will find that I am in a very small group of people whose understanding of and relationship with God differs so markedly to the majority of those who call themselves ‘christian’ that they view me as an heretic. I care not what the populous says but what the Lord says.

I believe revelation from God may be direct but it also may be through a myriad of other means – according to what God chooses.

Whatever but surely not in a mute and deaf method or means.

Why not? God speaks audibly at times, at times in a still small voice and at times inaudibly. God is not limited.

Now I have clearly stated that Jesus is not God. And those who have their belief in this doctrine point to scripture to refute what I say.

I know but is Jesus alive and true today? If yes, what is He now if Jesus is not God? I know Jesus is not the scripture.

Yes of course Jesus is alive and true today. He is the son OF God. He is the Word OF God.

As a matter of fact I have often (with others) shown from scripture a different understanding of what scripture says of Jesus. Of course trinitarians cannot accept this because they have been taught what certain scripture means and cannot or are not prepared to see any other meaning.

But what truth can you get from the scripture if the scripture itself says that Jesus is the Way, and the Truth,......... EVerybody needs to come to and talk to Jesus himself for Jesus is the TRUTH. The scripture is not God, it is neither Jesus nor the TRUTH.

Yes Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. As he said, no man can come to the Father but by him. It is through Christ that I know God. I am a son of God and co-heir WITH Christ of His (and my) Father’s kingdom. But I should say that I talk to God my father – rather than Jesus.

So this creates another question in my mind.
Christendom says that Jesus is God. Where do they get this from? Answer: scripture.

That is clearly and definitely what you get from them but not with what I am telling you. Jesus is God because we learned and still learning it from the Lord Jesus himself, the alive and true Almighty God of all ages.

OK – by what means did the ‘Lord God Jesus Christ’ himself convey to you this revelation?

And you also say that Jesus is God. So this is the question. Is your understanding of this notion based on something you have been told, or read in scripture, or did you receive this ‘knowledge’ by revelation.

By the revelation of the Lord God Jesus Christ himself who came in to our life in the month of July in the year 2001 and still on up to this very date, not just come in but sup with us too.

Yes I’m not disputing whether one knows the Lord and has a relationship with him and sups with him, but by what means Jesus conveyed to you that He is God.

So if you are not using scripture to support your belief, what supports it?

The Lord God Jesus Christ himself who always send us His Holy Spirit to let us feel His physical prsence whenever we are praying or having a deep thought of Him apart from His physical presece with us during tutorial sessions.

Yes again, through Christ I also know the presence of God whose spirit He sent to dwell within us.

As far as I know, I am the one who is doing the cross examination on you and yet I am the one now being put on cross examination. Anyway, it doesn't matter at all with me and you can go on and on with whatever you wish to do.

Oh I wouldn’t see it as a cross examination on my part – just trying to understand where you are coming from in your quest to cross examine me.

Speaking of the cross (of Christ). What say you of it?

 

[scorpia]

Mmmm OK – that’s interesting. Do I understand you to say that Christians in your country DO NOT believe that Jesus is God.
Two questions arise for me. 1. In your view are they in fact Christians, or do they think they are Christians? 2 What answer am I deliberately sticking to without explanation.

1. A very big flock in our country, "Iglesia ni Cristo" under the leadership of Eranio Manalo (I think they have many church buildings in the USA, not only in one state) believe Jesus is the Son of God but not God. The only difference between you and them is that they vehemently say that Jesus is only man but not an ordinary man. Also, in other so called Christian denominations there are those who say the Jesus is the Son of God but do not want to say anything whether Jesus is God or Jesus is man as if they were just travelling in circles on and on. With respect to my view, they think they are Christians.

2. On your part when ask what is Christ if He is not God, you just stick to saying Jesus is the Son of God. What hampers you from giving us your definite answer in one word (like man, spirit, God, etc.)?

Great – looks like we may be getting somewhere although I have to admit that your means of communicating – perhaps the language used is hard for me to follow.

I'm sorry but English is not our daily menu and the best that you can do is just to ask me what I meant with those that are vague to you and in that case you can help me to get the right choice of words. Also make your communication in simple language as much as possible for me to easily grasp your idea.

And this is what I mean – I my view it has nothing to do with ‘mood’ or ‘composure’

I just said that because of your words "And I agree with this", which, honestly, I do not expect from you.

And I say just as surely that any revelation from God (if it truly is revelation - as opposed to an academic acceptance of something) is by means of the spirit of God which is quickened to our spirits.

Saying "And I say......is by means of the spirit of God which is quickened to our spirits ", what does that mean? Did you just learn it by yourself? If yes, through what and by whom?

And I have found that the catalyst for the revelation maybe scripture – or any other medium which God chooses.

Saying "And I have found that....." means that, in your perspective, either of the two catalyst is already proven to be effective and tested. How did you come to that conclusion? As for me, the latter is the best because God is the One who chooses.

I was trying to convey the fact that revelation stems from relationship rather than academic knowledge.

But having a relationship with God is a two way traffic. There must be actions coming from both the Lord God and the human being, the Lord being the giver of the command and the man being the doer of God's command/s.

I care not what the populous says but what the Lord says.

Do this one literally, with all your heart and with all your soul and I have nothing much to say with you. I hope you fully know well what it means to say "what the Lord says', don't you? (The Lord is not a book).

I believe revelation from God may be direct but it also may be through a myriad of other means – according to what God chooses.

Whatever but one thing for sure is that there is/are revelation/s of thing/s coming directly from God and not only from a book which is already in existence prior to the occurence of said revelation.

Why not? God speaks audibly at times, at times in a still small voice and at times inaudibly.

How is this one, "inaudibly"? Biblically, where is this? Godly-cally, how did you experience this from God? Mute is no talkies from God, meaning revelation is only from the speaker's comprehension of what he reads from the bible and God said nothing at all to him. Deaf is he hears nothing from God.

God is not limited.

Neither can anybody put God in a box. Yes I agree with you in your last salvo that God is not limited but where are we now in our main topic, big brother?

 

[scorpia]

Yes of course Jesus is alive and true today. He is the son OF God. He is the Word OF God.

Still, the bait is just touching the lips of the fish. By whom did you learn that Jesus is the Son of God and Word of God?

It is through Christ that I know God.

This one is meaty and juicy. How is this one? How did Christ let you know God? How did He introduce himself to you? How did you know that He is the Christ? In what manner did Christ reveal himself to you?

But I should say that I talk to God my father – rather than Jesus.

The latter (talking to Jesus) is suffice enough for me to hear from you. All I need is the detail as to how it happened.

So this creates another question in my mind.
Christendom says that Jesus is God. Where do they get this from? Answer: scripture.

That's why they just landed in different religious groups with different teachings, doctrines, and beliefs purely based on their understanding of what they read in the bible.

OK – by what means did the ‘Lord God Jesus Christ’ himself convey to you this revelation?
Yes I’m not disputing whether one knows the Lord and has a relationship with him and sups with him, but by what means Jesus conveyed to you that He is God.

First and foremost, Jesus introduced himself to us that He is the Almighty Lord God who did speak to Moses in the past. He did it to us in a very long message which I already posted in this forum. Jesus took our spirits out of our body and brought us up above the sky and we physically felt this upward movement. He read our minds by saying at random what exactly we were thinking at those moments.(we were then four persons in a room listening to the messages of the Lord). He showed me some miracles like making my nephew walked in a mall without his feet touching the floor tiles, a soundless walk. My nephew was wearing a leather shoes with a metal boston on its sole. This walk took more than 3 minutes hence I was able to carefully watch his steps and it was not really touching the floor. Most of all, Jesus put a stop to the devil who brought to us the mysterious problem that puzzled our whole family for fourteen years. These are only some of what the Lord did to us to make us beliefve that He is the true and alive Almighty Lord God.

Yes again, through Christ I also know the presence of God whose spirit He sent to dwell within us.

I hope we can cross our way now. What happens to you, physically, every time that the Lord Jesus sends you the Holy Spirit? What usually do you do that makes the Lord Jesus send you the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit speak with you when He comes to you or when He indwells with you?

Oh I wouldn’t see it as a cross examination on my part – just trying to understand where you are coming from in your quest to cross examine me.

I just want to know the truth or the meat of what you are saying.

Speaking of the cross (of Christ). What say you of it?

What say I of the cross (of Christ), they were just pieces of thick wooden planks where the man to whom the Lord God dwelt in His fullness was nailed unto death? Does that cross have any spiritual bearing on our soul's salvation? I say none. God manifested in the flesh just to let the people know that God does exist in all ages and for them to call on and come to God for their salvation and eternal life.

 

[Imagican]

scorpia,

Let me offer the answer that you insist upon. Jesus IS the Son of God. To sum up, for you, in as close as possible to a 'one word' answer: Jesus is 'part' God, yet at the same time, He IS a 'separate entity', The Son. As WE are a 'part of Christ' once we are 'born again', (get it?), Christ IS a 'part of God' as well, being 'born of God'.

Christ is ALSO the Son of man. Upon being 'born in the flesh' He 'became' the Son of man as well as The Son of God. So, Christ is a 'part of' God, the ONLY begotten of God, yet this does NOT make; Christ = God. Christ IS Christ and God IS God. Trinity doesn't even teach that Christ WAS 'God in the flesh' so much as it has been altered since the introduction of 'trinity'. This doctrine has evolved into what it is today through about 1600 years of man's evolving theology concerning the nature of the relationship between Father and Son.

We have it perfectly offered to us as long as we are willing to accept. God IS the 'head of Christ', as Christ IS the 'head of man', as the man IS the 'head of woman'.

God is NOT ONLY our God, but THE God of Christ as well. God IS The Father, yet the Son was NEVER offered to us AS GOD. This is 'man-made' theology that has been debated since it's inception into Christianity. Those that insist upon labeling Chirst 'as God' have chosen to follow the teachings of men that contradict what has been offered through scripture and the teachings of those that Christ chose to 'spread His words'.

Not surprising that this would happen since we were warned that there would come those that would 'alter' the gospel as offered and 'turn it into' something of their 'OWN' design.

MEC

 

[scorpia]

scorpia,

Let me offer the answer that you insist upon.

Thanks for your effort but allow me to clarify from you the things which are vague in my comprehension, will you?

[quote:92339]Jesus IS the Son of God. To sum up, for you, in as close as possible to a 'one word' answer: Jesus is 'part' God

Percentage wise, how much of the God?

yet at the same time, He IS a 'separate entity', The Son

I'm not really good in English and here you are making me dizzy this time. How can a part of a whole be a seperate entity from that same whole? How will you compare that with a mole attached to a human body?

As WE are a 'part of Christ' once we are 'born again', (get it?), Christ IS a 'part of God' as well, being 'born of God'.

Can you please simplify this in its literal sense.

Christ is ALSO the Son of man. Upon being 'born in the flesh' He 'became' the Son of man as well as The Son of God.

Isn't it that the word Jesus is the name equal to with the names such as Emmanuele, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, Councellor, etc.? They are the names of the Almighty God in the Old testament, aren't they?

What was born in the flesh was the physical body, a human flesh like ours, created by the Holy Spirit and implanted in the womb of Mary. And when the child was born, those names, including Jesus, were given to the child. The son of man was the body (born of Mary) who was given the name Jesus, Emmanuele, Mighty God, etc. hence Jesus is also the Emmanuele, the Mighty God, etc.

So, Christ is a 'part of' God, the ONLY begotten of God, yet this does NOT make; Christ = God.

How can a begotten of God be not God in the first place? In all the books of the OT, God who spoke to different people in that past is only one and He did not say to anyone during those times that He had a begotten Son whose name was Jesus, Emmanuele, Mighty God, etc.

The apostles spoke of the things of God because they learned directly from God, but you yourself today are just speaking of the things of the bible and you just learned directly from the bible. But the bible is not the Lord God who is the only one who can teach us the TRUTH in our time today. This is the main reason why you can't say whether Jesus is God, spirit, man or whatever but just have to satisfy yourself with how you understand what is written in the scripture. Why not call on and come to Jesus who is alive and real?

Christ IS Christ and God IS God. Trinity doesn't even teach that Christ WAS 'God in the flesh' so much as it has been altered since the introduction of 'trinity'. This doctrine has evolved into what it is today through about 1600 years of man's evolving theology concerning the nature of the relationship between Father and Son.

To me God is only One, that is the Father is Jesus and Jesus is the Father as the Son is the Father and the Father is the Son. Why? This is the revelation that we received from the Lord Jesus Christ himself. God is alive and He is no other that Jesus whom if you will call on and come to at this very point in time, it will surely be a very big break through in your life. Go direct to God and you will be fed by the Lord with the right food.

We have it perfectly offered to us as long as we are willing to accept. God IS the 'head of Christ', as Christ IS the 'head of man', as the man IS the 'head of woman'.

God is NOT ONLY our God, but THE God of Christ as well. God IS The Father, yet the Son was NEVER offered to us AS GOD. This is 'man-made' theology that has been debated since it's inception into Christianity. Those that insist upon labeling Chirst 'as God' have chosen to follow the teachings of men that contradict what has been offered through scripture and the teachings of those that Christ chose to 'spread His words'.

Then, hurry up and call on to God for you to know who is God and who is Christ, don't just be satisfied with your understanding of what you read. You know pretty well where you are just coming from and you know, too, that God is alive and real, so seek the real and alive true God and come to Him and He will not deny you.

Not surprising that this would happen since we were warned that there would come those that would 'alter' the gospel as offered and 'turn it into' something of their 'OWN' design.

[/quote:92339]
Use the scripture in calling on and coming to God. Ask them all to God and He will teach you the meaning of what you read in the scripture. Never snatch the post alloted to God only - the Good Pastor and Teacher of all. If you are afraid that I am just altering the scripture, forget all that I did say to you but just remember one thing, go direct to and talk to God and refrain from interpreting the scripture by yourself or by any other. Good day to you.

 

[mutzrein]

Scorpia - I'm going to respond to one of your posts that you made above to me. Initially I didn't notice that you posted twice but I think it is futile for me to regurgitate responses to your questions - which you seem unable to understand. I'm not saying this to be critical of you but just as an observation that you seem to miss the spirit of what is being said and are focussing on pulling apart sentences / paragraphs which lose their context when you do this.

 

[Imagican]

scorpia,

Concerning your question of percentage. I have NO exact answer for such a question. What percentage are we of Christ? What percentage of woman is man? What percentage are YOU of YOUR FATHER? These are questions that have no obvious answer as provided by scripture.

What I WILL offer is that Christ, when present here on this earth, was NO MORE than half spirit and half man, if He could even be described in such terms. He WAS present in the flesh and that in itself shows that He could NOT BE God Himself. For the Bible offers that NO ONE has EVER seen God.

Yet MANY saw The Son of God. Short of manipulation of scripture, this stands true today as it ALWAYS has; NO ONE has EVER seen God. Manifestations of the Spirit, NO DOUBT, but God Himself, if ANYONE HAS, then the Bible contradicts itself. I don't believe this to be possible so I will stick to what I have offered.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

scorpia,

As to your second question. This one is easier than the first.

How can we and Christ be separate entities at the same time we are ONE? How can a man and a woman be separate entities, yet upon their wedding, be one? How can a father have a son and the two of them be a 'part' of the 'same' family, yet remain separate entities. I am NOT avoiding an answer to your question by offering questions in return. Just trying to make a point.

Here's what we have. We have Christ Himself offering that what He gave to us as The Word was NOT of His own design, BUT given Him by The Father. We have Christ offering that the power that He exhibited was NOT His OWN, but given Him by The Father. We have God's voice being heard as saying, ''This is MY Son, in whom 'I' am well pleased''. We have Christ praying to the Father, (God), 'let this cup pass from me'. or 'forgive them Father, for they know NOT what they do'.

These are OBVIOUS examples of 'how' Christ and God ARE separate entities. One does NOT pray to 'themselves'. One does NOT offer that 'I am MY OWN Son, in whom I am well pleased'. For Christ to BE God would VOID any semblance of understanding POSSIBLE concerning these statements.

Your ARM is your arm, a 'part' of your body but CERTAINLY not YOUR BODY. It is a 'separate' part of you yet STILL a part of you even though it is NOT YOU.

You ARE your fathers son. Formed through what he gave to you. Yet you and your father are NOT the same entities.

In the 'same' respect, Jesus IS The Son of God. A 'part' of God, for we KNOW that He IS the ONLY Begotten of God. That is ALSO another distinction that has been offered to Christ, further illustrating that HE IS NOT God, the Father.

It is ONLY 'trinity' that insists that ALL three, Father Son and Holy Spirit MUST be 'parts' of the 'same God. I accept ONLY ONE GOD. And the God that I accept IS the Father of Jesus Christ. And I KNOW that God is ALSO the God of Christ as well. His Father, and His God.

MEC