Only ONE TRUE GOD.

[SpiritualSon]

Father and Son is the Lord alone. The reason He is so called is because He was in the world in a state of union. In the Old Testament, too, He is called Jehovah and the Holy One of Israel. These are two names but yet referring to one God, that is, the Lord. He is called Jehovah God, He is called Lord, He is called Jehovah and God, also Jehovah and Lord, also Jehovah Zebaoth. Let the passages be quoted in which He is called Jehovah, and the Holy One of Israel, and in which He is called Jehovah and God.

Harry :fadein:

 

[Imagican]

scorpia,

An apology to me is unnecessary. I simply hoped to point out that it is NOT I or others that you 'sin against' when you choose to 'judge them', but it IS Christ that you question instead.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Harry,

I 'hear' you. But I notice that you choose to ignore the question posted in leu of the 'rote' of fundementalism. I have heard these statements over and over again. What I ask is for an explanation of the verse offered in respect to this 'Jesus IS God' doctrine. How does one accept this concept when MOST of the NT offers a 'different' understanding?

If God IS the God of Christ as well as OUR God, then HOW can Christ BE God? For we KNOW that God IS The Father. So, how could God Hiself offer a sacrifice UNTO HIMSELF? And not only HOW, but WHY would He do so? Yet in the scripture that I offered, it PLAINLY states that Christ offered HIMSELF as a sacrifice to God.

What I ask is 'how' this 'fits into' this, Christ IS God, doctrine.

MEC

 

[scorpia]

scorpia,

An apology to me is unnecessary. I simply hoped to point out that it is NOT I or others that you 'sin against' when you choose to 'judge them', but it IS Christ that you question instead.

MEC

Judge them how? We are just discussing here things of the bible and that of things of God, too, aren't we?

Can you post here specifics where I judge someone?

 

[mutzrein]

What I'm telling mutz is for him to call on, come on, and talk to God directly so that he may experience God truly and in that way he may not be coming to us in a way that a typical born again believer is just reciting his testimonies of how he/she finds God by the verses of the bible. It is up to you as to how do you look at me now but one thing I can tell you is that I am very sure that God is still talking to people today as in the days of the old, regardless of tongues and races, and that God is not monopolized by anyone.

Scorpia – I have to comment on what you have said here because I do have an element of agreement with part of what you have said. I know that my relationship with God, is not determined or dependant on what I read in the bible. So yes, it is a direct relationship born of God and not because I have recited verses in the bible.

But rather than discredit everyone who is a ‘born again believer’ which you seem to be doing I would say this. There is only one way that man can see or enter the kingdom of heaven. And that is by being born again.

However, it is the church (in general) which has a distorted view of what it means to be born again. The church has created a formula, whereby it says if you follow this formula, the culmination of which is asking Jesus to forgive you of your sins and come into you heart, then you are born again. Now the result of this formula is churches full of people who think they are born again because they have done the right thing and have recited the right verses etc but in fact they are no more born again than my dog.

BUT, this does not mean that there is no such thing as a ‘true born again believer’. So while there are many in our churches who are not born again, there are in fact a few who are. Those who think they are, are the tares and those who truly are, are the wheat.

And another thing I agree with you on is this. God is still talking to people as in the days of old regardless of tongue, race, etc. However, what we need to be careful about is saying that unless you have a personal visitation of God, in the manner that some in the days of old did, you are not God’s child. This is plainly not the case.

Jesus said, no man comes unto the Father but by me and no man can come unto me unless the Father draws him. You see, salvation is not at mans initiative, so we cannot seek our own salvation. It is God’s prerogative to give eternal life, to those whom He chooses. It is God’s prerogative to create some vessels for honor, and some for dishonor.

 

[scorpia]

Scorpia – I have to comment on what you have said here because I do have an element of agreement with part of what you have said. I know that my relationship with God, is not determined or dependant on what I read in the bible. So yes, it is a direct relationship born of God and not because I have recited verses in the bible.

Well and good if that is the case.

[quote:2d43d]But rather than discredit everyone who is a ‘born again believer’ which you seem to be doing I would say this. There is only one way that man can see or enter the kingdom of heaven. And that is by being born again.

What if a man truly seek, call on, and come to God with all his heart and with all his soul? Is this the same as being born of God?

However, it is the church (in general) which has a distorted view of what it means to be born again. The church has created a formula, whereby it says if you follow this formula, the culmination of which is asking Jesus to forgive you of your sins and come into you heart, then you are born again. Now the result of this formula is churches full of people who think they are born again because they have done the right thing and have recited the right verses etc but in fact they are no more born again than my dog.

I do hear you loud and clear mutz.

BUT, this does not mean that there is no such thing as a ‘true born again believer’. So while there are many in our churches who are not born again, there are in fact a few who are. Those who think they are, are the tares and those who truly are, are the wheat.

May I know where are you coming from this time by your "tares and wheat" wordings?

And another thing I agree with you on is this. God is still talking to people as in the days of old regardless of tongue, race, etc. However, what we need to be careful about is saying that unless you have a personal visitation of God, in the manner that some in the days of old did, you are not God’s child. This is plainly not the case.

Did I say that exactly as you are saying it now?

Jesus said, no man comes unto the Father but by me and no man can come unto me unless the Father draws him. You see, salvation is not at mans initiative, so we cannot seek our own salvation.

This is a bible verse and are you just explaining it to me? Why can't we seek our own salvation when same is none other than God himself? Listen to this one, the Lord Jesus said to us that the verse that no one can come to the FAther but by Him (Jesus) only means that we must seek and come first to the Lord Jesus so that when we have already found the Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord will reveal to us that He is the Father and the Father is He and in that way the Father (who is none other than the Lord Jesus) draws us nigh to Jesus. Jesus will not draw us nigh to any denominational church, to the bible or the Scriptures, and to anything else but only to Him, the Father and the Almighty Lord God of all. The signature I am using here is one of the direct teachings that we receive from the Lord. The initiative to seek God must first comes from us and not from God.

It is God’s prerogative to give eternal life, to those whom He chooses. It is God’s prerogative to create some vessels for honor, and some for dishonor.

[/quote:2d43d]
And it is only God's prerogative, not us, to give parametes on how we can attain our own salvation and eternal life. But it is on our own initiative first where finding God in our life anchors much.

 

[stranger]

If there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, then what happens to those that choose to worship these false gods in the form of dogs, or cats, or jackles, or birds? What are they 'truly' worshiping?
MEC

Hi Imagican,

They are worshipping the creature rather than the Creator.

This is a large tread and a late post on my part - I would be surprised if this was not answered earlier . . .

In Christ: Stranger

 

[Rick W]

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

 

[Imagican]

Potluck,

I DO believe that this is EXACTLY what the answer is. We were warned that this would happen and it began to happened SHORTLY after Christ's death. For REGARDLESS of Christ's deity, He was/IS a 'creature' MORESO than the Creator. Even though Christ was GIVEN power, that power CAME FROM God.

This 'trinity' thing is NOTHING short of polytheism at it's finest. To 'work' around it, those that created it simply attempted to 'explain away' how they STILL accept ONLY ONE God, but in THREE separate entities. Regardless of the 'double talk', (or triple talk), this STILL makes 'three gods' in one. That would be 'three gods' INSTEAD of one no matter how much one attempts to 'play word games'.

MEC

 

[Rick W]

Can you show me through scripture where Christ was created?

 

[mutzrein]

Mutz: But rather than discredit everyone who is a ‘born again believer’ which you seem to be doing I would say this. There is only one way that man can see or enter the kingdom of heaven. And that is by being born again.

Scorpia: What if a man truly seek, call on, and come to God with all his heart and with all his soul? Is this the same as being born of God?

Mutz: No, this is not the same as being born again.
There is only one way that any man can come to God and that is through Christ. And there is only one way that any man can come to Christ and that is if God draws him. So if any one seeks after God with all his heart (and finds Him) then he is already a child of God. He is already born of God. The relationship is established BEFORE a man can seek God with all his heart.

----------

Mutz: BUT, this does not mean that there is no such thing as a ‘true born again believer’. So while there are many in our churches who are not born again, there are in fact a few who are. Those who think they are, are the tares and those who truly are, are the wheat.

Scorpia: May I know where are you coming from this time by your "tares and wheat" wordings?

Mutz: There is a parable in scripture regarding the wheat and the tares. Are you not familiar with it?

----------

Mutz: And another thing I agree with you on is this. God is still talking to people as in the days of old regardless of tongue, race, etc. However, what we need to be careful about is saying that unless you have a personal visitation of God, in the manner that some in the days of old did, you are not God’s child. This is plainly not the case.

Scorpia: Did I say that exactly as you are saying it now?

Mutz: No, that is what I deduced from the words you used.

----------

Mutz: Jesus said, no man comes unto the Father but by me and no man can come unto me unless the Father draws him. You see, salvation is not at mans initiative, so we cannot seek our own salvation.

Scorpia: This is a bible verse and are you just explaining it to me? Why can't we seek our own salvation when same is none other than God himself? Listen to this one, the Lord Jesus said to us that the verse that no one can come to the FAther but by Him (Jesus) only means that we must seek and come first to the Lord Jesus so that when we have already found the Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord will reveal to us that He is the Father and the Father is He and in that way the Father (who is none other than the Lord Jesus) draws us nigh to Jesus. Jesus will not draw us nigh to any denominational church, to the bible or the Scriptures, and to anything else but only to Him, the Father and the Almighty Lord God of all. The signature I am using here is one of the direct teachings that we receive from the Lord. The initiative to seek God must first comes from us and not from God.

Mutz: Yes I am explaining it to you. And your reckoning that salvation is attained through man’s initiative to seek God, is false. And therefore, if this is a teaching that you say you have received from God, I say you have been deceived. I state this unequivocally because salvation has always been, and always will be, of God. He has initiated it from the beginning.
When we are born of our natural parents there is no decision that we can make enabling us to become their child. And so it is with God. Being born of God has nothing to do with any decision that man can make.

 

[Imagican]

Potluck,

I can offer this:

Christ WAS the 'firstborn of EVERY creature'. I know that there have been MANY 'different' interpretations of the meaning of this statement. But it's QUITE possible that this IS EXACTLY what is offered. That being; that BEFORE there was ANY creature, Christ was FIRST. And YOU even offered that there is the statement that men would begin to worship the 'creature' MORE than the Creator. The indication is that previous to ANY life on this planet, Christ was FIRST. In this light, Christ very well may have been 'created' BY God. Just as WE are able to be 'born again' through Christ, Christ Himself my very well have been 'born OF God'.

Many insist that since scripture indicates that EVERYTHING was 'created' by Christ that this must be taken LITERAL. What if it's as it HAS been stated and everything was created, not BY Christ, but FOR Him? Would this not explain much of the controversy surrounding many statements offered in The Word?

We KNOW this: God IS The Father. The Father IS God. There is NO statement in The Word that offers The Son IS God, or God, The Son. This is 'man-made' doctrine that is based solely on a small group of those that wished to 'control' the understanding of 'other men' as well. They were WRONG about much of their interpretation and, I believe, their understanding of the 'nature' of Christ as well.

And I KNOW this; there is NO offering of 'trinity' in The Word. Very suspect that a God that loves us as MUCH as we KNOW that He does, would leave us to 'formulate' this 'trinity' on our own without giving us this along with all that He has given. Very suspect that God would leave His OWN CHOSEN PEOPLE ignorant of this 'triune' nature and leave it up to a pagan people that previously possessed a 'triune' god to introduce it into 'man's understanding' of God and His Son.

I KNOW God. I KNOW Christ. Yet I KNOW NO 'trinity'. I know NO 'triune' nature. I pray DIRECTLY TO God through His Son Jesus Christ. My prayers ARE answered. So, I KNOW this, regardless of this 'trinity', God loves me and has revealed NONE of this to me. Just the opposite in fact. That there is ONLY ONE 'TRUE' God. There is ONLY ONE Son of God. And these we may know through the ONE TRUE SPIRIT. That is ALL I know and this has been enough to allow a transformation of my life into something that I would previously NEVER have been able to even comprehend possible.

Was Christ created? I don't KNOW the answer to this. But I 'believe' that He WAS the Son of God PREVIOUS to being born of this earth in the 'flesh'. Being the Son offers that the Father was FIRST. If this IS true, then Christ was created some time AFTER.

Christ even offers that what He gave to us was 'given Him' BY The Father. We KNOW that The Father IS God. And for something to 'be given' that indicates a time 'before' possession took place. Common sense really. No fancy 'word play' or inuendo. No 'double talk' or 'triple talk'. Just PLAIN understanding so far as scripture is concerned.

Christ told us SPECIFICALLY that His power and His words were NOT HIS OWN, but 'given Him' BY THE FATHER. This is a PLAIN statement that Jesus Christ is NOT God, but the Son of God; given what God chose to give to Him and this He offered to us. Simple to understand when one ignores the teachings of 'other men' and simply follows what has been offered by God through His Son.

And if Christ were IDEED God, then there would be NO NEED to pray to Himself. Father forgive them for they know NOT what they do. My Father, why hath thou forsaken me. These statements PLAINLY show that for one to accept 'trinity' then they must ignore MUCH of what has been offered and insert their 'own' understanding instead, (or that taught to them from someone else).

I would offer that one place their faith in God rather than the teachings of men. Place their faith in their Creator rather than an 'institution', no matter how powerful it may be on this planet. For there is NO man that can offer ANYTHING of God that one is NOT able to obtain from God Himself. No man that can forgive me for my sins or offer redemption through words or prayers ANY better than myself. And NO man that can offer you or me a relationship with God. That is up to me and my Father.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Itching ears that long for that which 'pleases' the understanding of men. Is this what God has offered us? If not, then why gravitate towards that which belongs to the world? Why not seek that which transends the 'self centered' desires of a 'fleshly' heart? Accept that which has been offered and realize that it's really much more simple than the complexity man insists MUST accompany something that he cannot understand ALONE.

I have discussed MANY issues with MANY that offer that they are INDEED Christians. I wonder, at times, what this word even means. Or if it even ought to be used in a discriptive manner concerning one's faith in God. I know this; Christian was a derogatory term used by Jews and Romans to describe those that believed on the name of Jesus The Christ. I wonder if it is not JUST as derogatory today as it was then. For this ONE WORD is used by many to 'separate' themselves from their fellow brothers and sisters. We are NOT to separate ourselves from those that NEED ANYTHING from those that 'claim' to be 'Christian'.

When we were offered the 'truth' by Christ, why is it SO hard for those that 'claim' to be 'Christian' to understand them. That is ONE of the fundemental ways in which we are to KNOW that we belong to Christ. That we UNDERSTAND HIS WORDS. When He commanded of us to forgive, He was NOT speaking of ONLY forgiving 'fellow Chirstians'. He was refering to EVERY PERSON ON THIS PLANET. For vengence is MINE 'sayeth the Lord.'

And, with these thoughts in mind, what has been the SINGLE biggest obsticle in the way of those that have 'truly' strove to follow the Words offered to us by Christ? Men and THEIR insistance that others MUST follow THEM rather than Christ TO His Father. And how has this been perpetuated? Through those institutions that we call 'churches'. And where did these churches 'come from'? From men with desires that closely matched those of 'their father'. And WHO IS their father? Figure that one out and the answers become QUITE plain and easy to 'see'.

God Bless,

MEC

 

[Rick W]

Well, I can see you feel pasionately about the subject but asking for direct scripture showing God and Christ are one and the same has the same controversial answers as asking for direct scripture showing that Christ was created.

But for me I'll take these couple examples as evidence that all things made can't include Himself as being made, a creature, that which was created.
:smt102


John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And again

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

[stranger]

Hi folks,

With a tread like this I want to take you back to the beginning in scripture, not to the beginning of an philosophical enquiry, namely:

Imagician wrote:

Since there is ONLY ONE TRUE God, is it POSSIBLE for God to make ANOTHER God EQUAL to Himself?

We see, through scripture, that what caused the fall of Satan was HIS desire to BE God. The Hebrews/Jews KNEW/KNOW that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD.

Compare the above with what God declares about Himself, not what men declare about Him, and spot the difference:

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our
image, according to Our likeness. . .

1:27 And God created man in His own image, in the image
of God He created him. . .

When men cross the border of what is revealed by God about Himself - men are indeed, aspiring to 'be' like God. . But that is the essence of temptation in the garden isn't it?

The Apostle John says:John 1:1 'In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. . .

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Is it possible that the Apostle John has seen something Imagician hasn't?

begotten not created!

In Christ: stranger

 

[stranger]

Hi once again,

Again back to the beginning:

Imagician wrote:

But we also KNOW that there are MANY gods. For man has incessantly created them since the beginning of time. Nothing new, right? There are sun gods, moon gods, water gods, etc.......... If there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, then what happens to those that choose to worship these false gods in the form of dogs, or cats, or jackles, or birds? What are they 'truly' worshiping?

Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever, Amen. (thanks Potluck)

If it is established that Christ was created, He is then a creature and those who worship Him commit idolatry. This is a logical consequence of Imagicians argument regardless of when Christ was created be it before the foundation of the world or after.

But Christ was not 'created' and the confessions of faith that confess Him thus stand and those who worship Him do not commit idolatry.

In Christ: stranger

 

[Rick W]

In Genesis scripture indicates, "God said ..."
John 1:1 confirms Christ as The Word

God created by saying, "Let there be light"
All things were created "by Him" refers to Christ.
God spoke and it was so. His word created all things.

I don't even understand what I'm trying to say but it's quite possible I can't since I have nothing in this world that can be used as an analogy even close to what I'm seeing here. I don't know.
Thing is we just don't have any scripture referring to anything before Genesis with the possible exception of John 1:1. But it still saying, "beginning" and we know God is everlasting to everlasting, in both directions of what we perceive as time.

 

[Rick W]

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

He's also the resurrection. How can He be an event? He's the truth, again how can this be? He's the Word of God. He's the Lamb of God, He's the Good Shepard.
All these things we have no way to comprehend locked in this physical world, there's nothing close to how these things can be relative to what we experience here.

 

[Imagican]

And I still offer that for God to 'die on a cross without sin' would accomplish NOTHING. We would profit NOTHING from scripture offering that God was NOT TEMPTED. However, OFFERING His Son, who chose to follow the will of God rather than the lusts of the flesh is OUR 'perfect' example of how WE TOO are given the opportunity to stand strong in the flesh through Christ 'living IN us'.

I still await someone that is able to offer the difference between 'begotten' and 'created'. For I am begotten of my earthly father and mother. NOT their ONLY, but certainly ONE OF their begotten children. We also have scripture that states that Abrahams children WERE BEGOTTEN of HIM. Yet those that insist that Christ IS God choose to ignore the description offered pertaining to EVERY OTHER begotten and instead, insert some 'different' meaning into God's offering, (and Christ's), that Christ WAS begotten OF The Father.

We have been commanded to offer the SAME love that Christ offered US. God gives, and God takes away. Christ ONLY gave. Gave EVERYTHING within His power and then some, (including His very life).

And someone PLEASE explain this one to me so that I may too understand as you??? 'My Father, why hath thou forsaken me?' Why would God ask such a thing of Himself?


MEC

 

[Rick W]

Are you refering to His flesh or His deity?
Begotten in flesh, firstborn as in prefered or superior is in harmony with John 1:3, Colossians 1:16 and others. To be created, or begotten as in non-existant until that time and firstborn as in born first is not in harmony with other scripture.
If you can show how your meaning of begotten and firstborn are in harmony with other scripture that might help.