OSAS discussion without using scripture

[JLB]

Malachi 3
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

King James Version (KJV)
by Public Domain

The idea that: Yhvh won't send any of HIS CHILDREN to a place of torment...

Where is that idea found in this scripture -

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7


JLB

 

[follower]

it's in english:
Malachi 3
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

King James Version (KJV)
by Public Domain

 

[JLB]

it's in english:
Malachi 3
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

King James Version (KJV)
by Public Domain

The idea that: Yhvh won't send any of HIS CHILDREN to a place of torment...

Is not found in scripture.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.Therefore do not be partakers with them.

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7


Couldn't be any clearer.JLB

What is clear is about the issue of an inheritance IN the kingdom, not, as you assume/presume/eisegete, getting INTO the kingdom.

I've provided the verses about inheritance being a reward, as well as verses about inheritance because of being a child of God. Why do you ignore them?

There is no grace if any of God's children will end up in the lake of fire. But, fortunately, God's grace is far greater than your opinion of it.

 

[follower]

The idea that: Yhvh won't send any of HIS CHILDREN to a place of torment...
Is not found in scripture.
JLB

Ecclesiastes 3:11 - Bible Gateway - BibleGateway.com
Ecclesiastes 3:11 ... mortals still can’t grasp what Elohim is doing ... He has put thoughts of the forever in man’s mind, yet man cannot understand the work ...

 

[JLB]

What is clear is about the issue of an inheritance IN the kingdom, not, as you assume/presume/eisegete, getting INTO the kingdom.

I've provided the verses about inheritance being a reward, as well as verses about inheritance because of being a child of God. Why do you ignore them?

There is no grace if any of God's children will end up in the lake of fire. But, fortunately, God's grace is far greater than your opinion of it.

Unfortunately for your doctrine, Paul adds the phrase wrath of God, together with not inheriting the kingdom.

The warning is clear - DO NOT BE PARTAKERS WITH THEM.


3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7


Inheriting the kingdom of God, is clear from the words of Jesus.

Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


The others who do not inherit the kingdom of God will hear these words:

'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


This can not be explained away with empty words.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Ecclesiastes 3:11 - Bible Gateway - BibleGateway.com
Ecclesiastes 3:11 ... mortals still can’t grasp what Elohim is doing ... He has put thoughts of the forever in man’s mind, yet man cannot understand the work ...

The Good news is Jesus explained for us what will happen on the day of judgement with the two groups of people standing before Him.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand,

'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

or -

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


You can't explain away these words.


JLB

 

[Gary]

(Edited, ToS 2.7, Obadiah)

This passage refers to those religious types who thought they were going to get into heaven by their works. They did recognize Jesus as Lord, and their works were even for Him. But what's missing here? On what were they basing their entrance into heaven on? Works. Not faith. Faith isn't mentioned, and they do not appeal on the basis of faith, but on works. No different than the Pharisees.

If simply believing in Christ allows one passage into the Kingdom, why weren't these people allowed entrance? It's obvious that they believed. They're works are a testament to that belief.

Yet Jesus says "I never knew you". Even before they started performing works, their simple belief did not save them. Christ never knew them. Not once in their life did Christ acknowledge them. He should have because they believed.....but He didn't.

From this passage it's obvious to discern that simple belief is not what's required to enter the Kingdom.
.

 

[Obadiah]

Please remember to follow our Terms of Service, particularly ToS 2.7: "All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc."

 

[FreeGrace]

The idea that: Yhvh won't send any of HIS CHILDREN to a place of torment...

Is not found in scripture.
JLB

Here's a fact as well. The notion that one can lose their salvation is not found in Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

Unfortunately for your doctrine, Paul adds the phrase wrath of God, together with not inheriting the kingdom.

That is correct, and not at all unfortunate. The writer of Hebrews mentioned the same thing, in 10:31 - It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands ofthe living God.

Unless one doesn't think God knows how to spank His own children, that is.

The warning is clear - DO NOT BE PARTAKERS WITH THEM.
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7

To speak of having no inheritance IN the kingdom of Christ and God is NOT the same as NOT entering the kingdom. There is a clear difference. Eph 5:3-7 is about being IN the kingdom, but having no inheritance there.

Inheriting the kingdom of God, is clear from the words of Jesus.

Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Did you check the context? And this inheritance, speaks of that of child and Father, just as Rom 8:17a does. This isn't the inheritance that is a reward for service. You are mistaken.

The others who do not inherit the kingdom of God will hear these words:

'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

They were not God's children. Ever.

This can not be explained away with empty words.
JLB

Seems that's what you've been trying to do. Context determines how "inheritance" is meant. Clearly seen in Rom 8:17.

 

[FreeGrace]

If simply believing in Christ allows one passage into the Kingdom, why weren't these people allowed entrance? It's obvious that they believed. They're works are a testament to that belief.

It is NOT obvious that they believed. There is no mention of it, and they are basing entrance on their works. Is that what gets one in? Works? That is what the Pharisees thought and were dead wrong. Jesus called them children of the devil.

It seems clear that your view is that one must have works as well as faith to get into the kingdom. Yet all passages on getting saved, or receiving eternal life is faith with out works.

Rom 4:4,5 - 4Now to him that worketh is the reward notreckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, butbelieveth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted forrighteousness.

Eph 2:8,9 - 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not ofyourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any manshould boast.

Yet Jesus says "I never knew you". Even before they started performing works, their simple belief did not save them.

Your assumption is false. They never believed, or He would have "known" them.

Christ never knew them. Not once in their life did Christ acknowledge them. He should have because they believed.....but He didn't.

He would have. But He didn't, because they never believed in him.

From this passage it's obvious to discern that simple belief is not what's required to enter the Kingdom.
.

No, it's obvious that this crowd were totally works oriented and thought they could earn their way into the kingdom, just like the Pharisees, whom Jesus routinely condemned.

 

[JLB]

That is correct, and not at all unfortunate. The writer of Hebrews mentioned the same thing, in 10:31 - It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands ofthe living God.

Unless one doesn't think God knows how to spank His own children, that is.


To speak of having no inheritance IN the kingdom of Christ and God is NOT the same as NOT entering the kingdom. There is a clear difference. Eph 5:3-7 is about being IN the kingdom, but having no inheritance there.


Did you check the context? And this inheritance, speaks of that of child and Father, just as Rom 8:17a does. This isn't the inheritance that is a reward for service. You are mistaken.


They were not God's children. Ever.


Seems that's what you've been trying to do. Context determines how "inheritance" is meant. Clearly seen in Rom 8:17.

Those that did not inherit the kingdom, were sentenced to everlasting punishment in hell.

The subject is not whether they were not God's children, ever.

The meaning of not inheriting the kingdom means sentenced to hell, whether Jesus says it or Paul says it, it means the same thing.

The deceitfulness of the OSAS doctrine is that it assigns one meaning to the phrase not inheriting the kingdom when it's used by Jesus, and an altogether different meaning of the phrase when Paul uses this same phrase.

Inheriting the kingdom means = Salvation

Not inheriting the kingdom means = sentenced to hell.

Whether Jesus uses this phrase, or Paul uses it.

Now you yourself have admitted that it means sentenced to hell, when used by Jesus, because you state those that were on His left hand were - They were not God's children. Ever.

How about when Paul addresses those brothers who are God's children?


That's where your doctrine falls short, and misses the mark.

You try to "make up" a new meaning for not inheriting the kingdom, when The Holy Spirit, through Paul, addresses the Christian Community.


It's clear for all who read these post's and are genuinely seeking the truth, just how deceitful this false doctrine of OSAS really is.

May God have mercy on those who teach this.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Those that did not inherit the kingdom, were sentenced to everlasting punishment in hell.

Of course they were thrown into the lake of fire. They never received eternal life, and were never born again, becoming children of God. Only children of God will live with God forever. Rom 8:17a

The subject is not whether they were not God's children, ever.

Yes, that is the issue. God's children do inherit the kingdom. That means getting INTO the kingdom. The 1 Cor 6, Eph 5 and Gal 5 passages are about inheriting IN the kingdom.

I do suppose you know the difference between "into" and "in", right?

The meaning of not inheriting the kingdom means sentenced to hell, whether Jesus says it or Paul says it, it means the same thing.

No, Paul was speaking about being IN the kingdom, but not having any inheritance there, all based on sin. Such children of God forfeit their reward, or inheritance.

The deceitfulness of the OSAS doctrine is that it assigns one meaning to the phrase not inheriting the kingdom when it's used by Jesus, and an altogether different meaning of the phrase when Paul uses this same phrase.

Please don't assign "deceit" to Scripture. Paul noted the 2 ways it is used in Rom 8:17. All children of God will inherit, or get INTO the kingdom. But only faithful children of God will have an inheritance IN the kingdom.

Inheriting the kingdom means = Salvation

Yes. But no inheritance IN the kingdom means something different; it means loss of reward.

Not inheriting the kingdom means = sentenced to hell.

Sure. But "having no inheritance IN the kingdom" means loss of reward.

Whether Jesus uses this phrase, or Paul uses it.

The difference is clear: Jesus spoke of inheriting the kingdom, while Paul spoke of having an inheritance IN the kingdom. Way different.

Now you yourself have admitted that it means sentenced to hell, when used by Jesus, because you state those that were on His left hand were - They were not God's children. Ever.

How about when Paul addresses those brothers who are God's children?

He's warning them of loss of an inheritance IN the kingdom.

That's where your doctrine falls short, and misses the mark.

Nope. Seems your doctrine can't discern the difference between "the kingdom" and "IN the kingdom". It's not real subtle.

You try to "make up" a new meaning for not inheriting the kingdom, when The Holy Spirit, through Paul, addresses the Christian Community.

There is no new meaning. It's always been there. Rom 8:17 is not real subtle.

It's clear for all who read these post's and are genuinely seeking the truth, just how deceitful this false doctrine of OSAS really is.

Those who teach the false doctrine of loss of salvation can't even discern the difference between being in the kingdom and inheriting IN the kingdom.

May God have mercy on those who teach this.
JLB

May God have mercy on those who teach that He will cast His reborn children into the lake of fire. Utterly false. No understanding of grace. Or the difference between being IN the kingdom, and having an inheritance IN the kingdom.

Inheriting the kingdom means getting in, or not.

But having an inheritance IN the kingdom means having reward, or not.

The concept of "IN" is not that difficult to grasp. Some of God's children will NOT have an inheritance IN the kingdom.

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace said -

Inheriting the kingdom means getting in, or not.

Yes that is what Jesus said in Matthew 25.

Paul says this as well, and furthermore he says it to brethren of the Christian Community.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

And again -


I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside... Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 5:9-11, 6:9-10

And again -

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-6


Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Those Christians who practice sexually immorality, and idolatry, fornication, covetousness or uncleaness will partake of the same wrath of God as children of this world, the sons of disobedience.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes that is what Jesus said in Matthew 25.

Paul says this as well, and furthermore he says it to brethren of the Christian Community.

No, he didn't. He spoke of an inheritance IN the kingdom. Big difference.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

When an inheritance is defined by behavior, rewards are in view. Otherwise, you're arguing that getting saved is dependent upon one's behavior.

And again -


I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside... Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 5:9-11, 6:9-10

Ditto.

And again -

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-6

Right. no inheritance IN the kingdom.

Those Christians who practice sexually immorality, and idolatry, fornication, covetousness or uncleaness will partake of the same wrath of God as children of this world, the sons of disobedience.
JLB

It is clear that your view is that sin gets one out of the kingdom. So, what exactly did Christ die for?

 

[JLB]

No, he didn't. He spoke of an inheritance IN the kingdom. Big difference.


When an inheritance is defined by behavior, rewards are in view. Otherwise, you're arguing that getting saved is dependent upon one's behavior.

Ditto.

Right. no inheritance IN the kingdom.


It is clear that your view is that sin gets one out of the kingdom. So, what exactly did Christ die for?

Paul uses the sane phrase as Jesus.

You already admitted that this phrase is a reference to hell, as you said those in Matthew 25 were not children of God, ever.


But when Paul uses the same phrase you back petal and make up excuses.

Paul warned against this, as he said -

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Paul warned Born Again Christians NOT TO BE PARTAKERS WITH THEM.

WITH THEM!!

The wrath of God upon the children of the world, the sons of disobedience, do not be partakers with them.

The wrath of God upon the world in the everlasting fires of hell, NOT SOMETHING ELSE...Therefore do not be partakers with them.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Paul wrote these words to born again Christians who were engaged in practicing these very things that he warned all the churches about.

THOSE WHO PRACTICE THESE THINGS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

You just can't explain away the scriptures with empty words.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Paul uses the sane phrase as Jesus.

You already admitted that this phrase is a reference to hell, as you said those in Matthew 25 were not children of God, ever.


But when Paul uses the same phrase you back petal and make up excuses.

Paul warned against this, as he said -

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Paul warned Born Again Christians NOT TO BE PARTAKERS WITH THEM.

WITH THEM!!

The wrath of God upon the children of the world, the sons of disobedience, do not be partakers with them.

The wrath of God upon the world in the everlasting fires of hell, NOT SOMETHING ELSE...Therefore do not be partakers with them.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Paul wrote these words to born again Christians who were engaged in practicing these very things that he warned all the churches about.

THOSE WHO PRACTICE THESE THINGS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

You just can't explain away the scriptures with empty words.


JLB

This was my question:
It is clear that your view is that sin gets one out of the kingdom. So, what exactly did Christ die for?

Which was ignored. Do you know what Christ died for, exactly, or not? Thanks.

 

[JLB]

This was my question:
It is clear that your view is that sin gets one out of the kingdom. So, what exactly did Christ die for?


Which was ignored. Do you know what Christ died for, exactly, or not? Thanks.

JESUS CHRIST DIED SO THAT WE CAN BE MADE RIGHTEOUS AND BE RECONCILED BACK TO GOD.

We will stay reconciled to God IF WE CONTINUE... in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23


THAT'S THE PART THAT OSAS IGNORES!!!


18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:18-19


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.


The condemnation you and I were saved from, will become a reality at the Resurrection IF WE DO NOT WALK ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.


THAT'S THE PART THAT OSAS IGNORES!!!


Christ died so that you can be free from the sin that causes you to be unrighteous.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


OSAS folks take one verse, and see it through the eyes of a preconceived doctrine, and ignore what the rest of the New Testament says.


For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.



JLB

 

[Edward]

Is this a trick thread?

And end run around good solid evidence so that one can express opinion as fact?

You can't do it without scripture. Somes opinions will be based on scripture, others on a misinterpretation of it. So good on you guys who whip out the scripture anyway, lol. So when the elephant of deception walks into the room, fall back into the word of God and do a hail mary...if the receiver doesn't catch it...well, that's his fault, lol.