OSAS discussion without using scripture

[FreeGrace]

JESUS CHRIST DIED SO THAT WE CAN BE MADE RIGHTEOUS AND BE RECONCILED BACK TO GOD.

We will stay reconciled to God IF WE CONTINUE... in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23


THAT'S THE PART THAT OSAS IGNORES!!!

Why did you continue to ignore my question to you?

THAT'S THE PART THAT OSAS IGNORES!!!

Why did you continue to ignore my question that your view concludes?

Christ died so that you can be free from the sin that causes you to be unrighteous.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

No, you are quite mistaken. Jesus for the sins of the world, not just those "practice righteousness". Jn 1:29. He took away the sin of the world.

Yet, your view claims that sin will separate one from God.

Please answer my question:
It is clear that your view is that sin gets one out of the kingdom. So, what exactly did Christ die for?

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace said -

Why did you continue to ignore my question to you?

Question: So, what exactly did Christ die for?

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:6

FreeGrace said -

Why did you continue to ignore my question that your view concludes?

Question: So, what exactly did Christ die for?

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

FreeGrace said -

No, you are quite mistaken. Jesus for the sins of the world, not just those "practice righteousness". Jn 1:29. He took away the sin of the world.

Yet, your view claims that sin will separate one from God.

Please answer my question:
It is clear that your view is that sin gets one out of the kingdom. So, what exactly did Christ die for?

Question: So, what exactly did Christ die for?

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.


Please read these words carefully: we shall be saved by His life...

We shall be saved! Shall be saved, if we continue in the faith.

If you still have faith, then you have the substance of the thing you are hoping for... Salvation!

If you stop having faith, then you stop having the very substance of the thing you are hoping for... Salvation!

That is why we must continue to hope steadfast until the end, to obtain the reality of the substance that we currently are hoping for.

Would you care to discuss this further?




You asked me this same question three times, and I answered you three times in three different verses.


If you ask me this question again, insinuating that I have not answered your question, then I will report you for harassment.



JLB

 

[reba]

a reminder to all members

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[reba]

OSAS discussion without using scripture


Finding it an impossible task to speak about the things of God without using Scripture to me is a good thing...

 

[JLB]

OSAS discussion without using scripture


Finding it an impossible task to speak about the things of God without using Scripture to me is a good thing...

 

[Gary]

It is NOT obvious that they believed. There is no mention of it, and they are basing entrance on their works. Is that what gets one in? Works? That is what the Pharisees thought and were dead wrong. Jesus called them children of the devil.

No, it's obvious that this crowd were totally works oriented and thought they could earn their way into the kingdom, just like the Pharisees, whom Jesus routinely condemned.

Explain something to me. Why were those individuals attempting to work their way into a kingdom created by a God they didn't believe in?

You say there was no belief. If that's true, why were they doing all their works in the name of Jesus? Why did they refer to Him as "Lord"?

How is it possible to try and work your way into heaven without having a belief in God?

Common sense should tell the reader that if they believed in heaven they also believed in God.
.

 

[Gary]

It seems clear that your view is that one must have works as well as faith to get into the kingdom.

Yes, that is my view and here's why.

James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? King James Version (KJV) by Public Domain


I don't know how anyone can argue against that.
.

 

[JLB]

Explain something to me. Why were those individuals attempting to work their way into a kingdom created by a God they didn't believe in?

You say there was no belief. If that's true, why were they doing all their works in the name of Jesus? Why did they refer to Him as "Lord"?

How is it possible to try and work your way into heaven without having a belief in God?

Common sense should tell the reader that it they believed in heaven they also believed in God.
.

Common sense?

Let's not get too carried away.


JLB

 

[Gary]

Common sense?

Let's not get too carried away.


JLB

Someone's gotta go there.
.

 

[Gary]

It seems clear that your view is that one must have works as well as faith to get into the kingdom.

Something else I thought of.

Romans 2
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; ..................................................... King James Version (KJV) by Public Domain


James 1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.........................................................King James Version (KJV) by Public Domain



"Doers" implies doing something.


Faith without works is dead.
.

 

[JLB]

Something else I thought of.

Romans 2
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; ..................................................... King James Version (KJV) by Public Domain


James 1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.........................................................King James Version (KJV) by Public Domain



"Doers" implies doing something.


Faith without works is dead.
.

16They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. Titus 1:16


My bible says that those who are abominable, have their part in the lake of fire.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Question: So, what exactly did Christ die for?
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:6

I was thinking more on the lines of what John the baptizer said, in Jn 1:29: "behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world".

Your view indicates that sin keeps people out of heaven.

Please read these words carefully: we shall be saved by His life...

We shall be saved! Shall be saved, if we continue in the faith.

OK, I followed your advice and read the verse carefully. It says we shall be saved BY HIS LIFE, not "if we continue in the faith". You've mixed and matched verses again.

Our salvation is totally dependent upon Christ. Not us, as your view purports.

If you still have faith, then you have the substance of the thing you are hoping for... Salvation!

There are NO verses that say that if one loses faith, they lose the substance. None.

If you stop having faith, then you stop having the very substance of the thing you are hoping for... Salvation!

Repeating your opinion is not helpful. What verse says that? None.

That is why we must continue to hope steadfast until the end, to obtain the reality of the substance that we currently are hoping for.

You may trust in your faith, but I'm trusting in Christ alone.

Would you care to discuss this further?

What woud be the point? Christ died for ALL sin, so behavior cannot be any reason for ending in the lake of fire. Christ died for everyone, not just believers. Sin is not the issue in residence in the lake of fire.

You asked me this same question three times, and I answered you three times in three different verses.

None of which addressed my question. He died for SIN. He took away the sin of the world, if you believe John the baptizer. Which I do.

If you ask me this question again, insinuating that I have not answered your question, then I will report you for harassment.JLB

This is the first time you actually did answer it. But still missed it. Christ died FOR SIN. He paid the sin penalty in FULL.

 

[FreeGrace]

Explain something to me. Why were those individuals attempting to work their way into a kingdom created by a God they didn't believe in?

No, they were attempting to work their way into a kingdom created by the God whom they did believe in. Just like the Pharisees were doing. And they didn't get in.

You say there was no belief. If that's true, why were they doing all their works in the name of Jesus? Why did they refer to Him as "Lord"?

They were trying to please Him by their works. But we know what pleases God: faith, per Heb 11:6.

How is it possible to try and work your way into heaven without having a belief in God?

Of course it's possible to try to work your way in to heaven. But it won't work. btw, believing in God doesn't save anyone. One MUST believe in the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Jn 6:40 says so.

Common sense should tell the reader that if they believed in heaven they also believed in God.
.

Yes, many people believe in God, and think they must work their way into heaven. And they are dead wrong.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, that is my view and here's why.

James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? King James Version (KJV) by Public Domain

Context is king. James was encouraging believers to demonstrate their faith. That if they don't, their faith is useless towards others. Read 2:15,16 for the clear example of what it looks like when one has faith but no works. They are hypocrites. Believers can be hypocrites.

I don't know how anyone can argue against that.
.

See above.

 

[FreeGrace]

Something else I thought of.

Romans 2
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; ..................................................... King James Version (KJV) by Public Domain


James 1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.........................................................King James Version (KJV) by Public Domain

"Doers" implies doing something.

Sure. Does that passage imply doing for salvation? No. Not even close.

Faith without works is dead.
.

Please see the Greek word for "neckros". It has a literal and figurative use. Think figurative, as in "useless".

 

[Gary]

No, they were attempting to work their way into a kingdom created by the God whom they did believe in. Just like the Pharisees were doing. And they didn't get in.

Thank you for making my point.

They were trying to please Him by their works. But we know what pleases God: faith, per Heb 11:6.

"They were trying to please Him....."

Isn't some sort of belief involved in trying to please someone? If they didn't believe in Jesus, why were they trying to please Him? What could they possibly gain by doing works for someone they didn't believe in?

An atheist doesn't believe that God exists, but that atheist is doing works in hopes of pleasing Him whom they don't believe exists................................................that makes absolutely no sense.

Of course it's possible to try to work your way in to heaven. But it won't work. btw, believing in God doesn't save anyone. One MUST believe in the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Jn 6:40 says so.

Again, thank you for making my point.
.

 

[Gary]

Context is king. James was encouraging believers to demonstrate their faith. That if they don't, their faith is useless towards others. Read 2:15,16 for the clear example of what it looks like when one has faith but no works. They are hypocrites. Believers can be hypocrites.

And how exactly does someone "demonstrate" their faith?

Thanks again.
.

 

[FreeGrace]

"They were trying to please Him....."

Isn't some sort of belief involved in trying to please someone?

That would be an assumption. Many people think that in order to please God, one must work for it. Or at it. Which is wrong.

If they didn't believe in Jesus, why were they trying to please Him?

To enter the kingdom.

What could they possibly gain by doing works for someone they didn't believe in?

They believed that Christ was Lord, and were trying to please Him by their works, which didn't please Him at all. As the text clearly indicates.

An atheist doesn't believe that God exists, but that atheist is doing works in hopes of pleasing Him whom they don't believe exists................................................that makes absolutely no sense.

No, it doesn't make any sense. And is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

Do you understand the difference between believing that Christ existed, and believing IN Him for eternal life? That's the issue here.

 

[FreeGrace]

And how exactly does someone "demonstrate" their faith?

Thanks again.
.

James 2:18. One cannot demonstrate their faith without works. Faith is demonstrated by works.

 

[Gary]

Sure. Does that passage imply doing for salvation? No. Not even close.

It actually does. Here's that entire passage........................in context.

Romans 2
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.............................................King James Version (KJV) by Public Domain