OSAS discussion without using scripture

[Gary]

James 2:18. One cannot demonstrate their faith without works. Faith is demonstrated by works.

That's what I've been saying.

 

[Gary]

They believed that Christ was Lord, and were trying to please Him by their works, which didn't please Him at all. As the text clearly indicates.

Again, that's what I've been saying.

Do you understand the difference between believing that Christ existed, and believing IN Him for eternal life? That's the issue here.

Of course I do.

You claim simple belief is all that's required for salvation. The passage from Matthew clearly indicates that claim to be false. You yourself said they believed Jesus was Lord, which means they held that simple belief.

What's at issue here is understanding that faith without works is not faith at all. It may be faith to you but the Lord does not recognize that. To Him it is unbelief.

That's what people need to understand and this OSAS doctrine gets in the way of that understanding. OSAS means I don't have to do a thing once I'm saved. I don't have witness, I don't need to study the scriptures, I don't have to tell anybody about Jesus. I can do whatever I please, sin or not, because once I'm saved, I will never lose my salvation, no matter what.



.

 

[Eugene]

@for_his_glory - Jesus said that those who endure unto the end are those who will be saved. The end of what you might ask, the end of all the trials and tribulations we face daily in this word of evil wickedness that surrounds us and will wax worse and worse until Jesus returns and calls His Bride to meet Him in the air.

Eugene - Dear Sister, under those conditions the thief on the cross had no opportunity, those new to Christ when Jesus appears in the air would be left, and maybe I’m wrong, but not one would ever know they were saved until they had passed all the tests and saved themselves as it were.

Now why do I say such a thing? Since I’m not allowed to use scripture on this thread, I’ll just say that Paul witnessed of certain women’s names written in a book, and that is before they are dead. Are you aware that Jesus will not erase our names from that book for any reason?

 

[Eugene]

What's at issue here is understanding that faith without works is not faith at all. It may be faith to you but the Lord does not recognize that. To Him it is unbelief.

That's what people need to understand and this OSAS doctrine gets in the way of that understanding. OSAS means I don't have to do a thing once I'm saved. I don't have witness, I don't need to study the scriptures, I don't have to tell anybody about Jesus. I can do whatever I please, sin or not, because once I'm saved, I will never lose my salvation, no matter what.

OSAS is a lie.
.

Yeah, I reckon it is hard to give God all the credit, because there seems to always be that remnant of the flesh that wants to claim the victory for itself.

The context of James is our testimony before men; not before God, and they will know us by our fruit, and if we do not remain in Him men gather us and cast us into the fire. Somewhere (since we're not using scripture) God says He remains faithful even when we're not.

 

[FreeGrace]

It actually does. Here's that entire passage........................in context.

Romans 2
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.............................................King James Version (KJV) by Public Domain

Sorry, but please highlight the wording that implies that salvation is by "doing". Thanks. I'm not seeing any such wording.

I do see commands to not sin.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's what I've been saying.

That doesn't mean they are not saved. It just means they can't demonstrate their faith apart from works. iow, humans can't see one's "heart", while God does. That's why Paul wrote in Romans that we are justified by faith.

But humans need to see the evidence of one's faith before they are justifified in their eyes.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
They believed that Christ was Lord, and were trying to please Him by their works, which didn't please Him at all. As the text clearly indicates.

Again, that's what I've been saying.

One must believe in Christ as Savior. iow, putting your trust in Him alone to save you. Those people were trusting in their own works to save them. They thought works would please the Lord. Which it didn't and doesn't.

That's what I'm saying.

You claim simple belief is all that's required for salvation.

Because the Bible claims that.

The passage from Matthew clearly indicates that claim to be false. You yourself said they believed Jesus was Lord, which means they held that simple belief.

See above for clarification.

What's at issue here is understanding that faith without works is not faith at all.

Wrong. Study James 2:26. Just as the body without the spirit is DEAD… Does that mean that a dead person never existed? No.

That's what people need to understand and this OSAS doctrine gets in the way of that understanding. OSAS means I don't have to do a thing once I'm saved.

To be clear, for salvation, there isn't anything that anyone can DO to be saved, apart from faith in Christ for eternal life.

However, there are many commands to make Christ Lord and obey Him. If a believer wants blessings and eternal reward, they must be obedient. If they don't, they will face God's hand of discipline.

I don't have witness, I don't need to study the scriptures, I don't have to tell anybody about Jesus. I can do whatever I please, sin or not, because once I'm saved, I will never lose my salvation, no matter what.

Yes, that's always the big fear amongst those who think they need to DO something in order to be or stay saved. Fact is, once saved, the believer does have a choice; to be obedient or face God's discipline. If you don't think God knows extremely well how to spank His children, these types of edited snarks have no place in this forum.. reba

The problem is that divine discipline of His children isn't taught much or very well in churches today, and the doctrine of rewards is almost unheard of. It is from such failure to understand Scripture that leads to the conclusion here.

OSAS is a lie.
.

I believe satan really wants all believers to think that. Why? It keeps them completely off balance, and keeps them feeling insecure, rather than secure in the Father's hand. Jn 10:28-29.

The idea that one must continue to do anything for salvation puts all the emphasis on the person, rather than on Christ.

Though it bothers many people that a child of God may go out and sin like the devil, it is possible, yet they will still go to heaven. The only problem is that their life on earth will NOT be pleasant, though they may act like it is, and they will lose out on all reward in eternity. They'll be sitting on the sidelines during the Millennium and beyond.

Sadly, the idea that salvation can be lost indicates an erroneous understanding of God's matchless grace.

Christ died for ALL sin. Therefore, sin cannot be an issue for the one who has believed.

Unless one of you can provide verses that say plainly that loss of faith, or a sinful lifestyle will keep the child of God out of heaven, you have no point, and no truth.

I know there are no such verses. All the verses that I get are warnings, sure. But none of them speak of salvation. They believe it is implied. But there are NO verses that plainly warn of loss of salvation. Such an possibility is so important that if it were true, there WOULD be verses that specifically and plainly say so. But there aren't any.

Calvinists have the same problem with their doctrine of "limited atonement", meaning that Christ died ONLY for the elect, or that He didn't die for everyone. There are no verses that say that, yet they cling to that notion just as hard as Arminians do with their doctrine of insecurity.

The Bible paints a beautiful picture of Father and child relationship between God and those who have believed in Christ. In the physical realm, there is no way to severe the relationship. Meaning, your DNA and your parent's DNA will always match. You cannot undo that. Same in the spiritual realm. Believers are born again, regenerated, become new creatures. That cannot be undone, and you cannot find any verse that reverses that action. Period.

Your view of salvation is that if you let go of His hand, He lets you go. That's some lousy father, physical or spiritual.

Y'all need to read the book "in the Grip of His Grace". God never lets go of His children. He does spank, and sometimes very hard. Other times, He lets them go their own way, but they are still His children. That cannot change.

I think at the core, it just really bothers Arminians to think that someone is "getting away" with sin. What a low view of God's grace. That's all I can say.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yeah, I suppose you're right.
.

Hebrews 12 says so. We don't have to suppose.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
They believed that Christ was Lord, and were trying to please Him by their works, which didn't please Him at all. As the text clearly indicates.

One must believe in Christ as Savior. iow, putting your trust in Him alone to save you. Those people were trusting in their own works to save them. They thought works would please the Lord. Which it didn't and doesn't.

That's what I'm saying.


Because the Bible claims that.


See above for clarification.


Wrong. Study James 2:26. Just as the body without the spirit is DEAD… Does that mean that a dead person never existed? No.


To be clear, for salvation, there isn't anything that anyone can DO to be saved, apart from faith in Christ for eternal life.

However, there are many commands to make Christ Lord and obey Him. If a believer wants blessings and eternal reward, they must be obedient. If they don't, they will face God's hand of discipline.


Yes, that's always the big fear amongst those who think they need to DO something in order to be or stay saved. Fact is, once saved, the believer does have a choice; to be obedient or face God's discipline. If you don't think God knows extremely well how to spank His children, you don't understand much of the Scriptures.

The problem is that divine discipline of His children isn't taught much or very well in churches today, and the doctrine of rewards is almost unheard of. It is from such failure to understand Scripture that leads to the conclusion here.


I believe satan really wants all believers to think that. Why? It keeps them completely off balance, and keeps them feeling insecure, rather than secure in the Father's hand. Jn 10:28-29.

The idea that one must continue to do anything for salvation puts all the emphasis on the person, rather than on Christ.

Though it bothers many people that a child of God may go out and sin like the devil, it is possible, yet they will still go to heaven. The only problem is that their life on earth will NOT be pleasant, though they may act like it is, and they will lose out on all reward in eternity. They'll be sitting on the sidelines during the Millennium and beyond.

Sadly, the idea that salvation can be lost indicates an erroneous understanding of God's matchless grace.

Christ died for ALL sin. Therefore, sin cannot be an issue for the one who has believed.

Unless one of you can provide verses that say plainly that loss of faith, or a sinful lifestyle will keep the child of God out of heaven, you have no point, and no truth.

I know there are no such verses. All the verses that I get are warnings, sure. But none of them speak of salvation. They believe it is implied. But there are NO verses that plainly warn of loss of salvation. Such an possibility is so important that if it were true, there WOULD be verses that specifically and plainly say so. But there aren't any.

Calvinists have the same problem with their doctrine of "limited atonement", meaning that Christ died ONLY for the elect, or that He didn't die for everyone. There are no verses that say that, yet they cling to that notion just as hard as Arminians do with their doctrine of insecurity.

The Bible paints a beautiful picture of Father and child relationship between God and those who have believed in Christ. In the physical realm, there is no way to severe the relationship. Meaning, your DNA and your parent's DNA will always match. You cannot undo that. Same in the spiritual realm. Believers are born again, regenerated, become new creatures. That cannot be undone, and you cannot find any verse that reverses that action. Period.

Your view of salvation is that if you let go of His hand, He lets you go. That's some lousy father, physical or spiritual.

Y'all need to read the book "in the Grip of His Grace". God never lets go of His children. He does spank, and sometimes very hard. Other times, He lets them go their own way, but they are still His children. That cannot change.

I think at the core, it just really bothers Arminians to think that someone is "getting away" with sin. What a low view of God's grace. That's all I can say.

16They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. 1 Titus 1:16

Paul seems to think that works are what define a person's faith in God.

The Bible also says those who deny knowing God by their works are labeled as abominable.

The abominable will have their part in the lake of fire.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yeah, I suppose you're right.
.

Trying to mix the idea of God correcting His children and sentencing people to the fires of hell is two completely different ideas.

If you don't know this, then maybe we can compare the scriptures that teach us these things.

JLB

 

[Gary]

Yeah, I suppose you're right.
.

This is me not pushing my convictions on anyone.

There's nothing being gained here, it's time to walk away.
.

 

[follower]

.... you got to knwo whne to hold 'em , knwo whne to fold 'em , knwo when to walk away, knwo when to run....

 

[FreeGrace]

16They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. 1 Titus 1:16

Paul seems to think that works are what define a person's faith in God.

And some of the works of believers belie their faith. Paul, like James, encouraged his audience to demonstrate their faith to others.

The Bible also says those who deny knowing God by their works are labeled as abominable.

Yep. Some of God's children are that. No doubt.

The abominable will have their part in the lake of fire.

Why? For sin? What?

If sin puts people in the lake of fire, we're ALL going there, JLB, including you and me. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8
JLB

So, is this a list of sins that Christ didn't die for? Please clarify. Any other lists of sins that Christ didn't die for?

 

[FreeGrace]

Trying to mix the idea of God correcting His children and sentencing people to the fires of hell is two completely different ideas.

Some of His children aren't correctable, so He takes them home (sin unto death) of 1 Jn 5:16. Resulting in loss of all eternal reward.

Do Arminians have any concept of reward in your theology? I haven't seen any evidence.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

.... you got to knwo whne to hold 'em , knwo whne to fold 'em , knwo when to walk away, knwo when to run....

You never count your 'money' while sitting at the table
There'll be time enough for countin' on the Day of Christ

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Some of His children aren't correctable, so He takes them home (sin unto death) of 1 Jn 5:16. Resulting in loss of all eternal reward.

Paul said God does that SO THEY CAN BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD. Sinning saints are not automatically saved 'no mater what', or else it would not be necessary to punish believers who stray from their faith in order that they can be saved in the Day of the Lord.

It is necessary that the believer continue in the faith and obedience to the gospel that they started out with. God does what he has to do to convince the sinning saint to come back to his senses so he can be saved on the Day of Christ, not destroyed. Some respond to God's correction, some don't. We know that the Corinthian fellow did repent. And because he did HE CAN BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD, not destroyed.

Do Arminians have any concept of reward in your theology? I haven't seen any evidence.

I couldn't define what an Arminian is to save my life. But I think if you're non-OSAS you are immediately categorized as an Arminian(?) But anyway, I'm non-OSAS, and the reward waiting for the worker of the gospel is the people he led to salvation, or who he encouraged and built up in their salvation, and who then 'held out the Word of Life' to the very end and are saved, not destroyed for turning back.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And some of the works of believers belie their faith. Paul, like James, encouraged his audience to demonstrate their faith to others.

And to do that so they can be saved, so he can boast on the Day of Christ that he did not run or toil in vain.

 

[follower]

You never count your 'money' while sitting at the table
There'll be time enough for countin' on the Day of Christ

with a reminder. there'll be no lovers of money ..... i think they're in not just one list of those who won't be there.

 

[Edward]

with a reminder. there'll be no lovers of money ..... i think they're in not just one list of those who won't be there.

Yeah, I hear you brother. I hate money. money is probably the biggest scam of all time...and people act like it's worth something, lol!

 

[follower]

Yeah, I hear you brother. I hate money. money is probably the biggest scam of all time...and people act like it's worth something, lol!

thank you thank you thanky you, or rather THANKS GOD, all praise and power and glory unto You OH YHVH for YOUR FAITHFULNESS and GRACE and MERCY to us mere humans in your care !!

(Edward, you're the last person to admit, confess, proclaim like I have for 40 years "I hate money" ,
and maybe the only other person I remember doing so.)

some people mouth the words "i hate the world" but they then continue scheming/planning just like the world to live in the world honoring the world's ways, the ways of flesh, instead of YHVH'S WAY, Yeshua and trust in Him, (like the widow who is known and talked about worldwide for the last 2000 years for her trust in Yhvh as Yeshua said she would be. she trusted Yhvh without fanfare, and gave to HIM ALL of her life savings, trusting YHVH to KEEP HIS WORD. )