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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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OSAS is biblical truth.
- Thread starter gr8grace
- Start date
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
I see trying to build that strawman GM in hopes of discrediting me without having to address the points I raise or the scriptures I point out that may be contrary to what you wish to promote as truth.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
What makes salvation as sure and secure as Jesus says it is is your believing--your trust in the blood of Christ and it's ability to make you righteous before God. Stop the believer's 'work' of believing and you no longer have the security of salvation.
So the real question is, can a believer stop believing? The Bible is full of warnings to not stop believing, so apparently it is possible.
That's how indoctrinations work. The Protestant church is fully indoctrinated with the OSAS teaching. But an honest read of the Bible for yourself (which most in the church do not do) will reveal how hard it is to believe that OSAS--as the church teaches it--could be true. OSAS is ONLY true as long as you trust, and continue to trust, in what God has shown you to be true about Jesus and his blood.
It's not what he said about the surety of his promise that is being doubted. This is about staying in the condition of believing that secures the sure promise of salvation.
Don't be confused. Faith is NOT believing. Faith is the supernatural gift of God to know the gospel is true. No man can know the gospel is true on his own. Believing is then putting your trust into that which God has now shown you to be true.
Did God do the work of believing for you? He certainly gave you the gracious gift of faith to know the gospel is true, but did he actually do your trusting for you so you can secure the benefit of what you now know to true about Jesus and the forgiveness of sins? Obviously, no. That is what you did, but still with much, much gracious help from God. And that is what you must continue to do if you want to hold on to the sure promise of God's salvation, the hope we trust in. People who disown Christ are in turn disowned by him and lose the surety of his promise.
And don't misunderstand. Disowning Christ is not about the growing pains of learning to trust God in our daily living while we rely on him to cover our sins. Disowning Christ means willfully and knowingly turning your back on the forgiveness of sins made available to us through the blood of Christ. There is no forgiveness available for that sin--the sin unto death--if you remain in it. But people somehow think that grace is so gracious and set apart from works that grace even covers unbelief. How ridiculous. Believing is the very work that Paul contrasts all other work against in his Romans letter. But many think even the work of 'believing' is included in his 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' teaching. Hardly. Read it for yourself.
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dadof10
Member
Exactly. I'm not making the point that Scripture teaches faith in Christ is unnecessary, but that this verse doesn't teach faith in Christ at all. We can't just use one or two verses that bolster our preconceived points, but we have to take Scripture as a whole, including those verses that seem to contradict our views, and look at them objectively.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
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George Muller
Guest
No non-believers have no place to make biblical points, for the Word of God is Spirit and truth, without the Spirit of Truth no man can take up the truth of scripture. Your translation is false altogether and is not to be accepted by any believer.
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George Muller
Guest
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George Muller
Guest
Jethro Bodine
Member
So, if I reject Christ by going back to the law after I'm saved, I'm condemned. But if I reject Christ after being saved for any other reason than turning to a reliance on law I continue to be saved. Strange doctrine indeed, M. Strange doctrine indeed.
Maybe this is why you believe and teach false doctrine, because you don't rightly divide the word.
The works of the flesh are laid out by Paul, as he warns his church not to walk in them.
Paul gives them the balance of the liberty of grace, and warns them not to use this liberty to walk in the flesh.
3 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
Paul then lays out specifically the works of the flesh, and gives them the consequences of practicing those sins.
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
Paul gives them clear and specific direction concerning walking in the lust of the flesh as he does in Romans -
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
On the contrary, a person can indeed expect condemnation if they choose to live a lifestyle of fulfilling the lust's of the flesh.
JLB
I read the book of Rev. The Lord rebuked and praised (both) to the 7 churches. Warnings were given to the living. I assume Jesus considered the churches His own. I think one who loves the Lord, calls on the Lord and receives the good gift and becomes a new creation should feel very secure in their salvation. The Lord will never drive them away for it His Fathers will to raise them up on the last day. So any divorce would be from man to Jesus not the other way around. Can that happen? Can one who loves the Lord and is born of God come to a point where they would divorce the Lord by deed and word? In my mind highly unlikely but the message I receive from scripture is "Remain in my Love by obeying my commands" not OSAS.
R.
R.
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Brother Mike
Guest
I just got up, I am trying to figure out how my post about just believing what God said and already promised ends up in a OSAS thread. Then I have Deb and George quoting me..........I must have got my threads mixed up.
The prayer of faith does save the sick......................... If any two touch and agree on anything it shall be done......... is one, then one in James the prayer of faith shall save the sick. Jesus talked to fevers and fevers had ears and obeyed him.
I guess I should have been a bit more clear. I don't ask God for healing.......... asking for something God already said was mine. That is in bad taste to keep hounding anyone after they said yes already.
Speaking to something because it's already yours, is still not under your full right and authority as an anointed Child of God. The Lord goes with, performing the Word with signs. It becomes covenant, a two way agreement where you need the one that set fourth the power of the Word for you and performing it for you. In fact, all faith is, is agreeing with God. That is all it is, nothing else you can do or have power in you to do.
There are many reason people don't get healed and many reason people don't get saved. The Word is still there for everyone, so we just believe what the Word says. If we get caught up in thinking we don't have enough faith, not enough obedience, not enough of anything, then we are right. We are not enough, and it will just get us down and miserable thinking if we were better then someone else could have been healed. We are not the Lord, we can't carry that burden.
Mike.
Well, it's like someone who keeps every single Sunday as some type of Sabbath day. Happy is he in the things they allow. I don't see how that might make you unsaved. What if someone won't eat pork? I believe man has a choice, and only leaving Jesus and the great power of the Holy Spirit by someones own choice after knowing what they are leaving to worship Allah or some other god. Only then would God say fine, leave..............
We are not taking about someone who is weak in their faith, or someone who is new in the things of the Lord.
We are not talking about someone who keeps external rituals or rules.
We are talking about someone who lives a lifestyle of fulfilling the lust's of the flesh, as Paul laid in Galatians 5, with the warning ; just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
This is just one example of someone who may have called on the Lord at one time, and been saved, but failed to continue in the faith and chose to live like those who are unsaved and died in that condition.
I believe the Lord would continue to try and reach that person and never give up on that person, but if that person refused to repent and just lived in sin and died that way, the scripture says they will not inherit the kingdom of God.That is why Paul made this profound statement after living a life given over to the Lord and working with all kinds of people in many different countries and seeing all the things he saw, both in heaven and on earth -
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2 Timothy 2:19
JLB
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Brother Mike
Guest
I am not sure why the bible translated Kingdom this way. basileia is a authoritative, ruling position with God. It is not a place. It's a female noun also, so it can't be any special or one place.
Thayer Definition:
1) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
1a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom
When You look at what operating in this authoritative position brings, it brings God's way of doing things here to the Earth. Just like Jesus said in Matt chapter 6 when talking about the Kingdom of God.
They Kingdom come, thy will be done......... On Earth as it is in Heaven. The Kingdom of God came, that abides In us. The right to operate and bring the Will of God for Heaven to Earth. This is why Jesus said if I cast out devils by the Holy Spirit the Kingdom of God has come on you.
Luk 12:31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
The Kingdom of God is tied with what we get from God. It's God's good pleasure to meet our needs and take care of us.
Someone doing the things Paul said will not enter into the Kingdom of God. It will be a powerless and crummy life. Paul is not saying anything about them being saved, He is saying they will not be blessed.
In God's Kingdom we make our living by sowing and reaping, We give, and it's given back in good measure. The rich Young ruler could not enter in that and receive a 100 fold now in this time because he walked away from Jesus. The rich just spend the money without going to God to work things out, they miss out on the great blessings and operation of the Kingdom.
That is what is is JBL..................
However................................ The condition is that Jesus is Lord. Now what happens if you don't live your life as if Jesus is actually Lord? Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart, then your saved.
If you believe in your heart That Jesus Is Lord, then you would conduct your life as if Jesus is Lord. If you don't believe that, then you just do what you want to do, and not consider What the Lords plans are for you.
If OSAS was true, then why Paul go to such great lengths to put a brother under the authority of Satan, so that his spirit would at least be saved. If his spirit was not in danger, then Paul would not have taken so drastic of an action.
It's just a Calvinist, Baptist Doctrine anyway. If you can loose your salvation, then God does not really elect people. If God does not really elect people then I have no doctrine left. So its more about defending a stupid doctrine such as Calvinism as opposed to what the Word really says. It's not about OSAS, it's about defending a dumb election doctrine.
The rest.................. have just gotten this from somewhere having leaked out of the Baptist Church. I love Baptist, use to be one, but some of them folks is hard set in traditions.
Mike.
So that you or anyone else who intends to water down what Paul was referring to, I will post this quote from Jesus -
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
or
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
It is important to note that there were two groups of people when Jesus returns to evaluate and Judge.
Those who inherit the kingdom.
Those who depart for everlasting fire.
Option 1 or option 2.
Warning: There was not a third category listed by Jesus.
Option 1 - Inherit the kingdom - Good.
Option 2 - Depart for everlasting fire - Bad.
However, Brother Mike, I sure sure Jesus would be willing to listen to you explain to Him what the Greek word definitions about what the kingdom of God means or doesn't mean. He may, through your extensive knowledge and powers of persuasion, choose to add a third option for those that have the ability to talk Jesus out of His sentencing selections.
However, I wouldn't count on that, Brother Mike. :naughty
Just a thought.
JLB
Deborah13
Member
Mike, I was agreeing with you. My grandson pray did not ask the Lord to heal. He did what you did. He rebuked satan and thanked Jesus. WE AGREE on this.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
What church did you found? I ask because you speak as one that has been empowered to dictate terms, make rules, and brush off anything that is not personally endorsed by you. If people listened to you, those without faith would be be given Bibles but instead would be subjected as their means of coming to God to having to hear and believe your version of the gospel. If they accept it, then they can use the scriptures, but if not, then no matter what they read for themselves in the revealed word, that cannot be used against what you put forth.
How arrogant.
Deborah13
Member
Oh my gosh...we actually agree, again. Scary..
I believe that the danger in turning back to the law, or turning to the law, and that the law is the...to sin. (can't remember the exact wording). Anyway, if one is busy looking at the law the "thou shall nots" can stir up lust in the flesh, rebellion. But by the same token the 'the thou shalls" can stir up boasting in the flesh. The 613 Laws have MANY "thou shalls".
So I see the problems lies in the stirring up of the flesh, whether be in negative ways or positive ways, IF one thinks it SAVES THEM. They have turned from "the covenant of Grace".
One does not have to turn to the Law of Moses, to end up in this state, of what I DO saves me. No what JESUS DID saves me. We respond by thinking and doing positive things and not negative things because He saved us, He lives in us, He loves us, and we love Him.
I found the first teaching of this clearly in, Job (not that it's not there before this). GOD found Job to be righteousness in ALL his works. He did all the "shalls" and did not do the "shall nots". But in the end, he was still in trouble with God. God said, that until Job could do all the things that God could do, his own right hand (works, positive and negative) could NOT save him. Job repented and God required nothing else from him, besides his sincere repentance.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Wow, I am going to find Greek 101 and send it to you............ You have a big issue with the Term Kingdom of God......... Kingdom of Heaven........... They are different!!!! It is how they would have heard it spoken, a authoritative position in the Kingdom......... If you don't obey and serve, then you don't get any right position in that Kingdom. I did not choose the Word, the Holy Spirit made that choice.
Then you missed the other half of my post............................... What if.......... You continue in those things, not entering into your rightful place in the Kingdom of God? Then what happens to you?
We have folks that never enter in, never make Jesus Lord............ Then we have folks that did make Jesus Lord and never lived their life as Jesus being Lord.
I don't believe if Paul had to send Satan to get someone to stop sleeping with their step mother or (mom) to save their spirit that they were eternally secure........That is not possible.
So, while I talk to Jesus about you beating up the Greek Language, you go tell Jesus that he sent the wrong word to mean Kingdom. I bet you he Looks at both of us and tells us to stop bickering like a bunch of School Girls because we both got it......... OSAS is ............................... BUSTED!!!!!
God bless your Grandson, May the Lord use him powerfully, and he never forget but get stronger in His faith and trust in the Lord. May he mature to be a strong man of the Lord, and full of wisdom for all things.
I fully agree Deborah, I never asked God to heal my son, not one time. I did go talk to the thief though. He was the first one I talked to, because it was not God's fault my son had cancer. In a bank robbery, you don't put the cuff's on the bank manager, but the thief.
Besides, Jesus said speak to the mountain, Jesus talked to fevers, he talked to dead people who should not been able to hear. We have to follow our examples in the Word of God if we want the Word's results. God is so good to babies, He was very good to me. As I learned more though, then speaking to something did not always work out well. There was something else I needed to learn, and when you think you got it, then God says great job!!! but......... I want you to look at this now.
We have people that cry night and day, and the Lord yet bears with them and helps them. Then we have folks like the Centurion who just told Jesus to speak the Word, good enough, don't even bother coming over. My servant will be healed. What use to be instant miracle is now turned into more of a get direction, get wisdom, wait and seek God, then respond.
I just won't say be healed, I need to hear the Holy Spirit first now, I have to get that direction because I don't know everything that is going on in that persons life, or what they believe.
Church:
I was invited to speak in Church for a Sunday Night service. These folks just hated me, but the Pastor had his speaker not show up, so I get a call. Fine, I'll sound like Joel Osteen, tell them God is great and hope I don't say something to full of faith that would upset them. It's a small Church, only about 40 was there, so I had all eyes on me just glaring. Their belief system was worlds apart from mine, but I love all denominations, so no issue.
The service went OK I assume, nobody seemed all that excited but one person. Someone brought a girl to church with them that was fighting drug addictions. I had to make an alter call, and she came up to give her life to Jesus. We go through her accepting Jesus as Lord, she has tears, it was pretty awesome.
Now, the service should be over........... My thinking. However this Girl did not know any better, did not know where she was at, did not know anything about doctrines, just brand spanking new. She does not leave the podium, but ask me a question that everyone heard. She asked, Can God heal my stomach?
It's like time stopped. I promised this Pastor no strange faith stuff, just a encouraging message, and here this girl goes in front of everyone. I could feel all those eyes just glaring and waiting for me to give the right answer.
What could I do?
I said, God will heal you right here and right now. May I put my hand on your stomach. I then said, Stomach you be healed, restored as God intended you to work. Devil, you have no more place, this is a child of God now, so get your hands off God's property!!! Leave her alone in the name of Jesus, be healed!!
I did not know this, but she was suppose to have surgery to repair ulcerations in her stomach caused by all her pill taking and drug use. The day she went in for scans they found scar tissue as if someone had repaired her stomach. Completely healed, no surgery. Not only that but that night she asked me if she could go out now and eat, she was just only able to have a liquid diet, I said fine, go enjoy yourself.
One would think those folks after getting the report would lighten up on me, but nope!!!
God does met our faith, God does care. We just have to obey and follow what he said do. That is all God is asking, just do what My word says do, and I will take care of the rest.
Jesus momma told them that when the water was made into wine......... she said whatever He says do, you do.
Mike.
More jumbo jumbo!
I have not mentioned the Kingdom of Heaven in this post. Those are you words to distract the subject matter of my post.
Kinda like a used car salesman would do to customer asking for the Carfax.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God Galatians 5:19-21
And again -
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
JLB