OSAS is biblical truth.

[gr8grace]

They are not ignored. We can't get past salvation and How truly simple it is. We can't go beyond that. We all sit at salvation and never get to some meat.

For Christians ALL of these warnings are for our experiential,on going,progressive sanctification. And Have NOTHING to do with our position in Christ.

Well Greatgrace, this is just your opinion and your attempt to dismiss these things as if they do not relate to our "position in Christ" ??? Our position in Christ is based upon grace, thus when one rejects grace they "fall" from that position. And this very warning about the angels who left their first estate "position" and was judged because they did not stay in that "position". And you may feel free to limit the ability of your own understanding, but to somehow claim "we all" are in some place of ignorance in regards to the Word of Righteousness is only to attempt to restrict others to your own box of tradition and doctrines as to avoid the issue in which you seem to lack understanding yourself. I have eaten of the strong meat and I am attempting to set a plate before others, but it is called the "word of righteousness" Gods righteousness, not mans. Those who yet look the law are carnal and babes in Christ. Those who have no confidence in the flesh, are spiritual.

Looks to me as if Jethro and JBL have sucked you in. You do not see it though. They are saying the exact same thing you are saying.



By what you have posted here, you are saying that the Greek is wrong in the OP.

Show me where the Greek and How it is presented in the OP is Wrong.


Someone show me that the Greek is wrong in the OP.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They are not ignored. We can't get past salvation and How truly simple it is. We can't go beyond that. We all sit at salvation and never get to some meat.

For Christians ALL of these warnings are for our experiential,on going,progressive sanctification. And Have NOTHING to do with our position in Christ.

Well Greatgrace, this is just your opinion and your attempt to dismiss these things as if they do not relate to our "position in Christ" ??? Our position in Christ is based upon grace, thus when one rejects grace they "fall" from that position. And this very warning about the angels who left their first estate "position" and was judged because they did not stay in that "position". And you may feel free to limit the ability of your own understanding, but to somehow claim "we all" are in some place of ignorance in regards to the Word of Righteousness is only to attempt to restrict others to your own box of tradition and doctrines as to avoid the issue in which you seem to lack understanding yourself. I have eaten of the strong meat and I am attempting to set a plate before others, but it is called the "word of righteousness" Gods righteousness, not mans. Those who yet look the law are carnal and babes in Christ. Those who have no confidence in the flesh, are spiritual.

Looks to me as if Jethro and JBL have sucked you in. You do not see it though. They are saying the exact same thing you are saying.



By what you have posted here, you are saying that the Greek is wrong in the OP.

Show me where the Greek and How it is presented in the OP is Wrong.


Someone show me that the Greek is wrong in the OP.

I already showed you what makes the Greek in the OP 'right'...BELIEVING.

Believing is the condition that makes the forcefulness of the Greek what it is in the OP. It's amazing how OSAS looks right past 'having faith' to have the hope of the surety of God's promise of salvation. So often OSAS believers don't even realize they're quoting the 'faith' part in the scriptures they use to defend OSAS.

Did you understand my point about how it is faith that gives the forcefulness of God's promises in the Greek when I made it at the beginning of this thread? Or do we need to revisit it?

 

[JLB]

The specific problem in the churches in the early church was the leaven of the Judaizers--Jews who tried to impress the Mosaic law on gentile believers entering the church

True, however there was/is another problem.

There was the enticment of legalism, as you said.

There is also lawlessness, whereby a person does whatever is right in their own eyes.

This is called the works of the flesh by Paul in his letter to the Galatians.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

These are not the works of the law, but examples of works of the flesh.

This letter was written to born again believers.

Practicing these sins will disqualify a person for inheriting the Kingdom of God.

James breaks it down for us -


14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. James 1:14-16

Paul warns us of the same thing -

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

and again -

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

There certainly is condemnation for those who once tasted of the heavly gift of sweet salvation, for choose to regress into a sinful fleshly lifestyle of sexual immorality, drunkenness, murders, sorcery...

If you live according to the flesh you will die!

If you think a person can live a lifestyle like that and be found justified on the day of judgement, then you have chosen to ignore what the scriptures teach.


9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:4-10


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Even if your claim that a believer cannot reject Gods Grace to the point of having their name removed from the book of life, which you cannot prove, these warnings are real and must not be ignored for the sake of some doctrine called OSAS.

George, I am confused. I thought you took the stance of OSAS???

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This is what happens when you take a 2 hour break from a heated thread. You miss everything.

Blessings.

Also just committing sin is not going to throw you into Hell. There is a heart condition to be considered. You just don't banish your own child if they fail to wash the dishes as instructed. (Beat them and not feed them for 2 weeks) but not banish them.



Mike.

 

[George Muller]

Even if your claim that a believer cannot reject Gods Grace to the point of having their name removed from the book of life, which you cannot prove, these warnings are real and must not be ignored for the sake of some doctrine called OSAS.

George, I am confused. I thought you took the stance of OSAS???

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This is what happens when you take a 2 hour break from a heated thread. You miss everything.

Blessings.

Also just committing sin is not going to throw you into Hell. There is a heart condition to be considered. You just don't banish your own child if they fail to wash the dishes as instructed. (Beat them and not feed them for 2 weeks) but not banish them.



Mike.

I have made very clear that eternal security is in the Grace of God, and in grace the promises are as sure as His Cross and His Blood, outside of grace we have very real warnings that are not there just to make the bible sound religious. But as I have said most every warning that would even suggest that salvation could be in jeopardy, is made to those who turn grace to law, from Gods righteousness to mans righteousness. From spirit and faith to flesh and legalism.

 

[JLB]

Also just committing sin is not going to throw you into Hell. There is a heart condition to be considered. You just don't banish your own child if they fail to wash the dishes as instructed. (Beat them and not feed them for 2 weeks) but not banish them.

I think everyone would agree.

However, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There does come a time when a person who has been saved for many years is expected to overcome, more so than a baby christian.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

They are not ignored. We can't get past salvation and How truly simple it is. We can't go beyond that. We all sit at salvation and never get to some meat.

For Christians ALL of these warnings are for our experiential,on going,progressive sanctification. And Have NOTHING to do with our position in Christ.

Well Greatgrace, this is just your opinion and your attempt to dismiss these things as if they do not relate to our "position in Christ" ??? Our position in Christ is based upon grace, thus when one rejects grace they "fall" from that position. And this very warning about the angels who left their first estate "position" and was judged because they did not stay in that "position". And you may feel free to limit the ability of your own understanding, but to somehow claim "we all" are in some place of ignorance in regards to the Word of Righteousness is only to attempt to restrict others to your own box of tradition and doctrines as to avoid the issue in which you seem to lack understanding yourself. I have eaten of the strong meat and I am attempting to set a plate before others, but it is called the "word of righteousness" Gods righteousness, not mans. Those who yet look the law are carnal and babes in Christ. Those who have no confidence in the flesh, are spiritual.

Looks to me as if Jethro and JBL have sucked you in. You do not see it though. They are saying the exact same thing you are saying.



By what you have posted here, you are saying that the Greek is wrong in the OP.

Show me where the Greek and How it is presented in the OP is Wrong.


Someone show me that the Greek is wrong in the OP.

No my friend, I was never in any camp to defend some term called OSAS, I DONT CARE ABOUT THAT TERM, if One adds "in Grace" to that term, then it cannot be defeated in any way. So as I have said before these promises upon which you build your defense of this term are sure "in grace" but the scriptures do not make the warnings of turning from grace in vain either, they are to be contended with also in the light of the gospel of grace.

and as far as your OP, your right but be sure the effect of the promise is in grace.
without grace the promise has no ability to be sure and true. Because it is a promise made in grace, then its effect is sure. Those who reject grace reject God and His goodness, God has given Himself the right to deal with these fallen believers and yet make the promise sure to those in grace.

 

[George Muller]

However, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

You never did answer the question I ask you before JLB? Do you ever practice any of these things on this list? If so have you lost your salvation?

Paul called a whole Church "carnal" in the flesh, he did not "unsave" any of them, but told them the same thing that the Kingdom of God is spiritual; to receive it one must walk in the spirit, because the flesh cannot inherit. This is what Paul is saying, and those who attempt to make this passage a condition of salvation for others are the very reason God had to place such warnings against hypocricy and legalism. Many of those who attempt to cast doubt upon others salvation in this way, will suffer with the Pharisees.

 

[gr8grace]

They are not ignored. We can't get past salvation and How truly simple it is. We can't go beyond that. We all sit at salvation and never get to some meat.

For Christians ALL of these warnings are for our experiential,on going,progressive sanctification. And Have NOTHING to do with our position in Christ.

Well Greatgrace, this is just your opinion and your attempt to dismiss these things as if they do not relate to our "position in Christ" ??? Our position in Christ is based upon grace, thus when one rejects grace they "fall" from that position. And this very warning about the angels who left their first estate "position" and was judged because they did not stay in that "position". And you may feel free to limit the ability of your own understanding, but to somehow claim "we all" are in some place of ignorance in regards to the Word of Righteousness is only to attempt to restrict others to your own box of tradition and doctrines as to avoid the issue in which you seem to lack understanding yourself. I have eaten of the strong meat and I am attempting to set a plate before others, but it is called the "word of righteousness" Gods righteousness, not mans. Those who yet look the law are carnal and babes in Christ. Those who have no confidence in the flesh, are spiritual.

Looks to me as if Jethro and JBL have sucked you in. You do not see it though. They are saying the exact same thing you are saying.



By what you have posted here, you are saying that the Greek is wrong in the OP.

Show me where the Greek and How it is presented in the OP is Wrong.


Someone show me that the Greek is wrong in the OP.

No my friend, I was never in any camp to defend some term called OSAS, I DONT CARE ABOUT THAT TERM, if One adds "in Grace" to that term, then it cannot be defeated in any way. So as I have said before these promises upon which you build your defense of this term are sure "in grace" but the scriptures do not make the warnings of turning from grace in vain either, they are to be contended with also in the light of the gospel of grace.

and as far as your OP, your right but be sure the effect of the promise is in grace.
without grace the promise has no ability to be sure and true. Because it is a promise made in grace, then its effect is sure. Those who reject grace reject God and His goodness, God has given Himself the right to deal with these fallen believers and yet make the promise sure to those in grace.

That is the whole point of the OP George. It is by Grace. And that Grace is from God. the Grace of God saves Sinners, not the Idea of grace from His Creatures.

Gods grace saves and not a creature alive can change or manipulate that grace by the creatures behavior or actions. Gods Grace saves us, not what we think or act like after we believe. We can all think that we can throw Gods Grace in the Ocean, dumpster or anywhere we can think of. However, Gods Grace is His to give and He does not take back what He gives to His creatures. No matter What the creature does after belief.

The perfect tense of saved in Eph 2:8 tells us it is DONE AND FOREVER DONE THROUGH HIS GRACE(a creature can't change this). nothing in that verse and the Greek language offers us a way out of salvation once we believe.

 

[JLB]

You never did answer the question I ask you before JLB? Do you ever practice any of these things on this list? If so have you lost your salvation?

No.

The word practice is the key phrase in these verse's.

JLB

 

[George Muller]

You never did answer the question I ask you before JLB? Do you ever practice any of these things on this list? If so have you lost your salvation?

No.

The word practice is the key phrase in these verse's.

JLB

So you don't do them as much as others? So do you think because you do these things less than others that you are somehow free from being in the "flesh" when you do them? So then if one just commits adultery, every once in a while and does not "practice" it, then its the same as if one just gets jealous every once in a while? Not the point of the scripture at all, the point is to "MANIFEST" the works of the flesh, so that a believer can judge themselves and not so a believer can judge and condemn others. It is not a scripture that suggest the loss of salvation as you continue to try to use it. Im sure you grant yourself complete mercy and then judge others by this standard that you do not keep yourself? You know what that's called? h-----y and God hates that more than even those who walk in the flesh.

 

[George Muller]

Looks to me as if Jethro and JBL have sucked you in. You do not see it though. They are saying the exact same thing you are saying.



By what you have posted here, you are saying that the Greek is wrong in the OP.

Show me where the Greek and How it is presented in the OP is Wrong.


Someone show me that the Greek is wrong in the OP.

No my friend, I was never in any camp to defend some term called OSAS, I DONT CARE ABOUT THAT TERM, if One adds "in Grace" to that term, then it cannot be defeated in any way. So as I have said before these promises upon which you build your defense of this term are sure "in grace" but the scriptures do not make the warnings of turning from grace in vain either, they are to be contended with also in the light of the gospel of grace.

and as far as your OP, your right but be sure the effect of the promise is in grace.
without grace the promise has no ability to be sure and true. Because it is a promise made in grace, then its effect is sure. Those who reject grace reject God and His goodness, God has given Himself the right to deal with these fallen believers and yet make the promise sure to those in grace.

That is the whole point of the OP George. It is by Grace. And that Grace is from God. the Grace of God saves Sinners, not the Idea of grace from His Creatures.

Gods grace saves and not a creature alive can change or manipulate that grace by the creatures behavior or actions. Gods Grace saves us, not what we think or act like after we believe. We can all think that we can throw Gods Grace in the Ocean, dumpster or anywhere we can think of. However, Gods Grace is His to give and He does not take back what He gives to His creatures. No matter What the creature does after belief.

The perfect tense of saved in Eph 2:8 tells us it is DONE AND FOREVER DONE THROUGH HIS GRACE(a creature can't change this). nothing in that verse and the Greek language offers us a way out of salvation once we believe.

Again Great, you take sure promises that God intended to strengthen the humble and build them up unto the Image and strength of Christ, and you attempt to grant these things to those God has not granted them too. For God resist the proud and GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE. The harlot in grace is forever secure, the hypocrite and religious who reject grace, are never intended to be secure, because they base their salvation upon their own righteousness. God does not want these people to be sure of their salvation, He hates this pride in man and rejects this self-righteousness in man in absolute terms. So you have no right to ignore the warnings He has made to these people. You have no authority to save those who reject the grace and goodness of God.

 

[JLB]

Here is a link to a Website called - Ex Christian.net.

The thread title is called What killed your faith for good?

There are many threads like this on that site, but I will just post this one for an example.

I would encourage anyone who believes is OSAS to visit this site and read some of the post's, and then tell those people that everything for them will be okay, because once your saved your always saved.


http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/53160-what-killed-your-faith-for-good/


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yo, gr8grace, check this out:

"1 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus...
6 ...we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:1,6 NIV)


Holy people, who presently share in the heavenly calling, who are of the household of Christ, but who are only of Christ's household if they continue in their confidence in God's salvation.


Nothing here to suggest temporal benefits and rewards for being in Christ. This is speaking about actually being in Christ. And it's continuance is conditioned on holding firmly in faith. You are no longer of Christ's household if you fall away in unbelief.

 

[chessman]

"3 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus... 6 ...we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:3,6 NIV) Holy people, who presently share in the heavenly calling, who are of the household of Christ,

I think you quoted verses v1 then v6 from chapter 3, not verse three. (I don’t know why the biblegateway or other sites doesn’t put in “1†for the first verse. I’ve been caught by that too.
But to your point, here it is in the ESV:

3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession… 6 but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.
​

It seems obvious that the author recognized that not every person reading this letter/Scripture was/is in fact someone who “share in a heavenly calling†or “his houseâ€. So this Scripture is merely defining only those that “hold fast†are of his type. It doesn’t say that they were of that type then slipped out of it. That’s read into the text. We know this (at least in this particular passage) because he clarifies that by saying what he did in verse 12 (also addressed to a bipartisan crowd).

12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
​

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The issue of turning from faith is always "legalism"

Why?

How so?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The issue of turning from faith is always "legalism"

Why?

How so?

You had to ask, lol.

Jesus talks about the kind of people who stop believing and fall away because of troubles, testings, and persecutions.

And Hebrews talks about losing your birthright for the sake of carnal pleasure, like Esau did.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

You had to ask, lol.

I'm a glutton. Even in the event of overwhelming evidence , sometimes hope still springs eternal. LOL.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"3 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus... 6 ...we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:3,6 NIV) Holy people, who presently share in the heavenly calling, who are of the household of Christ,

I think you quoted verses v1 then v6 from chapter 3, not verse three. (I don’t know why the biblegateway or other sites doesn’t put in “1” for the first verse. I’ve been caught by that too.
But to your point, here it is in the ESV:

3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession… 6 but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.
​

It seems obvious that the author recognized that not every person reading this letter/Scripture was/is in fact someone who “share in a heavenly calling” or “his house”. So this Scripture is merely defining only those that “hold fast” are of his type.

So then you are non-OSAS, which says those who persevere in their faith are the ones that are saved.

If you're not non-OSAS, from here you'll say that if someone doesn't persevere then it means they were never saved in the first place, right? If so, be prepared to explain the "back to repentance" of Hebrews 6:4-6.

It doesn’t say that they were of that type then slipped out of it. That’s read into the text. We know this (at least in this particular passage) because he clarifies that by saying what he did in verse 12 (also addressed to a bipartisan crowd).

12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
​

Well, we know from the whole context of the letter that he is warning this bipartisan group about falling away from Christ and becoming unbelievers--unbelievers who then lose the hope (that they presently have) of being a part of Christ's household.

You have to be in Christ before you can fall away from Christ and lose the hope of salvation you now presently have by being in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You had to ask, lol.

I'm a glutton. Even in the event of overwhelming evidence , sometimes hope still springs eternal. LOL.

If necessary, we should revisit your Ephesians 2 posts.