OSAS is biblical truth.

[Jethro Bodine]

And Just by confessing to him My sin I am back in fellowship with him.

Because you have faith that He will forgive you.

As Christians, our flesh is NOT going, so walk in the Spirit. The new creature is going though. So feed it.(Bible doctrine). For Christians there is also an aspect of reigning with Christ in His Kingdom if we mature as Christians. Being a(carnal) Christian and walking in our flesh, we will be denied certain inheritance rights in His Kingdom.

So feed it...

Amen Brother. Sow to the spirit.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His...

...but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


Amen Brother, amen.

With this mindset, God will never let you go. You want Him. You want to live for Him.

Not the flesh nature but the real you.

For it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure.


I believe with all my heart a person with this attitude, God will never let go of and will never be lost.


JLB

So "feed it with what" JLB? The law? which is not of faith? NO! Ones Spirit is fed and strengthened by faith in the sure promises of God, not in doubt and legalism. One can only truly be "walking in the spirit" when they walk in confidence of the Blood and in the confidence of GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS, ETERNAL RIGHTEOUSNESS. those WHO DOUBT ARE IN THE FLESH, because they base salvation upon their own ability and not the promises of God and His Grace.

Why do you keep bringing the law into this conversation? I'm not aware of a single person saying the law is how a person is justified before God. We all agree the 'work' of believing--having faith in the blood of Christ--is how a person is justified, utterly and completely apart from works of the law.

From here OSAS says you can stop your work of believing and still have the efficacious work of Christ's blood ministering on your behalf before God, keeping you justified in his sight.

Non-OSAS says if you stop your work of believing you no longer have the blood of Christ, put there by your faith, ministering before God on your behalf.

I think the problem is people think that somehow the 'work' of believing is included in the teaching that salvation is not by works. But if you read Paul's Roman's letter you'll see he makes the clear distinction between 'believing', and works of the law, contrasting belief in Christ's blood with works of the law. Believing (which Jesus calls the work we are to do) is what he contrasts with all other work as being able to justify a person before God in heaven.

So that is how I think the church has erroneously come to this misguided 'hyper-grace' doctrine that says salvation is so set apart from works that ultimately even the 'work' of believing isn't a condition, or an ongoing condition, for salvation. Absurd.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Muller, did God do your believing for you?

I know he gave you the faith to believe. But did he do the actual work of believing--the work of trusting in Christ--for you?

 

[gr8grace]

John 15 note the word "if" :If you remain in me and I in you

Yes and the only way one can be "cut-off" is if one rejects Christ and Gods righteousness in Him, and returns to the law and to seek to establish one own righteousness by keeping the law of Moses. Thus one has rejected the Spirit of grace and fallen from grace. Almost every warning against turning from faith is to those who are trying to justify themselves by the law, in some way.

Once a person believes, they are forever saved. You are giving the Law more power and influence then the Folks that believe the Law is for believers, George.

Those that follow the Law have fallen FROM grace not OUT of grace. It is a life that is far from Grace. But these Christians are never Out of Christs saving Grace.

 

[George Muller]

Amen Brother, amen.

With this mindset, God will never let you go. You want Him. You want to live for Him.

Very odd that only a few post ago your where attempting to condemn any and all by this scripture that Great said he was a transgressor of, but the truth is we all have this struggle and we all could transgress this "written standard" This is why the New Covenant is not like the old, it is not in the "letter" although words are used to explain spiritual truth. This covenant is in the heart and love is the fulfillment of it all. So when we take a written standard and judge and attempt to condemn other believers by a standard we transgress ourselves? We have just made the New Covenant "the letter that kills" not to mention the hypocricy and transgression of the Commandment of Christ to love one another as He loves us, and to love one another as we love ourselves. We grant mercy for our flesh and seek to condemn and judge the flesh of others? it should not be.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

From what I read in these post's, everyone agrees with this statement George.



Agreed. It takes faith to receive from the Lord, whether it is salvation, or healing, or provision. It is all contingent upon the person asking to have faith.


JLB

Good then maybe you can explain the point Jethro was attempting to make in that post? For it sure seemed he was trying to claim that true faith is in doubt?

Did you forget? You were making that point. Not me.

No I say all this unbelief and doubt is "sin" and those who have these doubts should repent and believe and continue in the hope of the gospel.

What does that mean, if not that you believe that doubt is needed to be called faith? James spoke true words;

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

You need to start listening.

The doubt is not in the sure Word of God. What remains in doubt is if you are going to continue to 'have faith', aka 'believe', to the very end so you can inherit what has so surely been promised to those who believe.

Hopefully now it will be impossible for you to misrepresent the argument any longer.

Do you understand the argument now?

 

[George Muller]

John 15 note the word "if" :If you remain in me and I in you

Yes and the only way one can be "cut-off" is if one rejects Christ and Gods righteousness in Him, and returns to the law and to seek to establish one own righteousness by keeping the law of Moses. Thus one has rejected the Spirit of grace and fallen from grace. Almost every warning against turning from faith is to those who are trying to justify themselves by the law, in some way.

Once a person believes, they are forever saved. You are giving the Law more power and influence then the Folks that believe the Law is for believers, George.

Those that follow the Law have fallen FROM grace not OUT of grace. It is a life that is far from Grace. But these Christians are never Out of Christs saving Grace.

Look Great, I agree in grace, but you cannot reject Gods Grace and expect to be "saved by grace" One cannot have Gods righteousness and go about to establish their own by the law. You may not like it because it conflicts with some doctrine you have been taught, but I say let the Word of God change you and do not attempt to change it to match your own traditions. The promises of scripture that you see and defend are sure and true, and often I rejoice in your defense of these great and precious promises, but these are made based upon the grace of God. The warning against those who turn from grace are just as sure.

 

[George Muller]

Did you forget? You were making that point. Not me.

No I say all this unbelief and doubt is "sin" and those who have these doubts should repent and believe and continue in the hope of the gospel.

What does that mean, if not that you believe that doubt is needed to be called faith? James spoke true words;

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

You need to start listening.

The doubt is not in the sure Word of God. What remains in doubt is if you are going to continue to 'have faith', aka 'believe', to the very end so you can inherit what has so surely been promised to those who believe.

Hopefully now it will be impossible for you to misrepresent the argument any longer.

Do you understand the argument now?

Yes and doubt is not faith.

 

[JLB]

So what do you think "faith" is in, if not in the saving and cleansing power of the Blood of Christ? In Gods sure promises?

From what I read in these post's, everyone agrees with this statement George.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Agreed. It takes faith to receive from the Lord, whether it is salvation, or healing, or provision. It is all contingent upon the person asking to have faith.


JLB

Good then maybe you can explain the point Jethro was attempting to make in that post? For it sure seemed he was trying to claim that true faith is in doubt?

Not even close.

He never said nor insinuated anything remotely close to that statement.

He has always said that the necessary requirement for salvation is faith.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

Why do you keep bringing the law into this conversation? I'm not aware of a single person saying the law is how a person is justified before God. We all agree the 'work' of believing--having faith in the blood of Christ--is how a person is justified, utterly and completely apart from works of the law.

Because at the root of all this doubt and unbelief, is legalism. "for the law is not of faith" Also almost every warning of scripture that relates to continued faith, is a direct warning against the return to the law of Moses. You may not understand how legalism destroys the faith of believers, but If you will be humble enough to listen to why Paul taught that the "strength of sin, is the law" "that the law is not of faith" you can be set free as well and walk in the perfect law of liberty as was Gods intention for every believer.

 

[George Muller]

From what I read in these post's, everyone agrees with this statement George.



Agreed. It takes faith to receive from the Lord, whether it is salvation, or healing, or provision. It is all contingent upon the person asking to have faith.


JLB

Good then maybe you can explain the point Jethro was attempting to make in that post? For it sure seemed he was trying to claim that true faith is in doubt?

Not even close.

He never said nor insinuated anything remotely close to that statement.

He has always said that the necessary requirement for salvation is faith.


JLB

Ok I agree "faith" is the standard.

 

[JLB]

And Just by confessing to him My sin I am back in fellowship with him.

Because you have faith that He will forgive you.

As Christians, our flesh is NOT going, so walk in the Spirit. The new creature is going though. So feed it.(Bible doctrine). For Christians there is also an aspect of reigning with Christ in His Kingdom if we mature as Christians. Being a(carnal) Christian and walking in our flesh, we will be denied certain inheritance rights in His Kingdom.

So feed it...

Amen Brother. Sow to the spirit.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His...

...but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


Amen Brother, amen.

With this mindset, God will never let you go. You want Him. You want to live for Him.

Not the flesh nature but the real you.

For it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure.


I believe with all my heart a person with this attitude, God will never let go of and will never be lost.


JLB

So "feed it with what" JLB? The law? which is not of faith? NO! Ones Spirit is fed and strengthened by faith in the sure promises of God, not in doubt and legalism. One can only truly be "walking in the spirit" when they walk in confidence of the Blood and in the confidence of GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS, ETERNAL RIGHTEOUSNESS. those WHO DOUBT ARE IN THE FLESH, because they base salvation upon their own ability and not the promises of God and His Grace.

George you can ramble on about the law, but none of us has brought that up.

Your ONLY hope is to twist this discussion into a law verse's faith discussion to get the light of truth off of you and you unsubstantiated doctrine of once saved always saved.

A person will always have a choice of free will to choose to turn away from Christ or to remain connected to the Vine.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

George you can ramble on about the law, but none of us has brought that up.

As I just posted, almost every warning of scripture that relates to the need for a believer to continue in faith, is directly related to the law. If the condition of faith is the standard of salvation, and the law is not of faith, of course I will continue to make the true biblical position in my post. In grace salvation is absolute and secure, the only warnings of scripture that might suggest that one could be removed from this security is that one rejects grace and returns to the law of Moses. So you may not like the truth, it may not tickle the ears? But it cannot be challenged.

 

[gr8grace]

Did you forget? You were making that point. Not me.

No I say all this unbelief and doubt is "sin" and those who have these doubts should repent and believe and continue in the hope of the gospel.

What does that mean, if not that you believe that doubt is needed to be called faith? James spoke true words;

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

You need to start listening.

The doubt is not in the sure Word of God. What remains in doubt is if you are going to continue to 'have faith', aka 'believe', to the very end so you can inherit what has so surely been promised to those who believe.

Hopefully now it will be impossible for you to misrepresent the argument any longer.

Do you understand the argument now?

I have read through it. And this is what i see from the debate.

Gods word and promises are sure. everyone agrees.

But Gods word and promises become unsure if we stop believing (you) and unsure if we habitually sin( most others) and unsure if we(follow the law) George.

Now this is just my perspective and being honest from what I have read. Everyone that is active in this thread and giving their opinion agrees with each other....somehow we can lose salvation. Semantics.

The new creature in Christ that a believer never loses, does not sin,never stops believing and follows the Law to a tee. Our flesh is not going and for the most part our flesh has been debating for the last 300 posts if the flesh has eternal security or not. That is why it is so hard to have fellowship and Grow in his Grace and Knowledge on this site. We can't even get past salvation and how it works.

If we do not know Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and If we do not believe in our complete and eternal security.We will not go anywhere as Christians and the Spiritual life.

 

[George Muller]

Did you forget? You were making that point. Not me.

No I say all this unbelief and doubt is "sin" and those who have these doubts should repent and believe and continue in the hope of the gospel.

What does that mean, if not that you believe that doubt is needed to be called faith? James spoke true words;

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

You need to start listening.

The doubt is not in the sure Word of God. What remains in doubt is if you are going to continue to 'have faith', aka 'believe', to the very end so you can inherit what has so surely been promised to those who believe.

Hopefully now it will be impossible for you to misrepresent the argument any longer.

Do you understand the argument now?

I have read through it. And this is what i see from the debate.

Gods word and promises are sure. everyone agrees.

But Gods word and promises become unsure if we stop believing (you) and unsure if we habitually sin( most others) and unsure if we(follow the law) George.

Now this is just my perspective and being honest from what I have read. Everyone that is active in this thread and giving their opinion agrees with each other....somehow we can lose salvation. Semantics.

The new creature in Christ that a believer never loses, does not sin,never stops believing and follows the Law to a tee. Our flesh is not going and for the most part our flesh has been debating for the last 300 posts if the flesh has eternal security or not. That is why it is so hard to have fellowship and Grow in his Grace and Knowledge on this site. We can't even get past salvation and how it works.

If we do not know Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and If we do not believe in our complete and eternal security.We will not go anywhere as Christians and the Spiritual life.

I agree with you in large part, and you seem to have a need to put everything and everyone in the box of your understanding. What you will not do and cannot do is debate the scriptures and the issue of OSAS as it relates to the rejection of grace. Now these warnings are not there to fill up space, and to just say "we are all New Creations" and ignore these warnings is not acceptable to those who desire to know the truth above tradition and terms such as OSAS. Does this warning sound as if Paul is promoting legalism as if it has no effect?

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Even if your claim that a believer cannot reject Gods Grace to the point of having their name removed from the book of life, which you cannot prove, these warnings are real and must not be ignored for the sake of some doctrine called OSAS.

 

[gr8grace]

You need to start listening.

The doubt is not in the sure Word of God. What remains in doubt is if you are going to continue to 'have faith', aka 'believe', to the very end so you can inherit what has so surely been promised to those who believe.

Hopefully now it will be impossible for you to misrepresent the argument any longer.

Do you understand the argument now?

I have read through it. And this is what i see from the debate.

Gods word and promises are sure. everyone agrees.

But Gods word and promises become unsure if we stop believing (you) and unsure if we habitually sin( most others) and unsure if we(follow the law) George.

Now this is just my perspective and being honest from what I have read. Everyone that is active in this thread and giving their opinion agrees with each other....somehow we can lose salvation. Semantics.

The new creature in Christ that a believer never loses, does not sin,never stops believing and follows the Law to a tee. Our flesh is not going and for the most part our flesh has been debating for the last 300 posts if the flesh has eternal security or not. That is why it is so hard to have fellowship and Grow in his Grace and Knowledge on this site. We can't even get past salvation and how it works.

If we do not know Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and If we do not believe in our complete and eternal security.We will not go anywhere as Christians and the Spiritual life.

I agree with you in large part, and you seem to have a need to put everything and everyone in the box of your understanding. What you will not do and cannot do is debate the scriptures and the issue of OSAS as it relates to the rejection of grace. Now these warnings are not there to fill up space, and to just say "we are all New Creations" and ignore these warnings is not acceptable to those who desire to know the truth above tradition and terms such as OSAS. Does this warning sound as if Paul is promoting legalism as if it has no effect?

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Even if your claim that a believer cannot reject Gods Grace to the point of having their name removed from the book of life, which you cannot prove, these warnings are real and must not be ignored for the sake of some doctrine called OSAS.

They are not ignored. We can't get past salvation and How truly simple it is. We can't go beyond that. We all sit at salvation and never get to some meat.

For Christians ALL of these warnings are for our experiential,on going,progressive sanctification. And Have NOTHING to do with our position in Christ.

Simply put, there are going to be LOSER believers in Heaven and there will be WINNER believers in Heaven. All those warnings are to motivate the christian to move on and become a WINNER believer.

Those that do not take these warning to Heart will be loser believers in Heaven.

And the OP PROVES eternal security, everyone just denies the Greek and how it states that we are saved NO MATTER WHAT after we believe.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Did you forget? You were making that point. Not me.

No I say all this unbelief and doubt is "sin" and those who have these doubts should repent and believe and continue in the hope of the gospel.

What does that mean, if not that you believe that doubt is needed to be called faith? James spoke true words;

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

You need to start listening.

The doubt is not in the sure Word of God. What remains in doubt is if you are going to continue to 'have faith', aka 'believe', to the very end so you can inherit what has so surely been promised to those who believe.

Hopefully now it will be impossible for you to misrepresent the argument any longer.

Do you understand the argument now?

I have read through it. And this is what i see from the debate.

Gods word and promises are sure. everyone agrees.

But Gods word and promises become unsure if we stop believing (you) and unsure if we habitually sin( most others) and unsure if we(follow the law) George.

Now this is just my perspective and being honest from what I have read. Everyone that is active in this thread and giving their opinion agrees with each other....somehow we can lose salvation. Semantics.

The new creature in Christ that a believer never loses, does not sin,never stops believing and follows the Law to a tee. Our flesh is not going and for the most part our flesh has been debating for the last 300 posts if the flesh has eternal security or not. That is why it is so hard to have fellowship and Grow in his Grace and Knowledge on this site. We can't even get past salvation and how it works.

If we do not know Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and If we do not believe in our complete and eternal security.We will not go anywhere as Christians and the Spiritual life.

See, you said it, but you seem to still not be able to see it--"(T)hrough faith alone".

Faith is how we access the sure, un-bendable, ironclad, eternal, promise of God in salvation. But OSAS says you can lose that component and you still have access to the sure promise. Not a chance. If that was true there would be zero warnings in the NT about losing your faith and, as a result, your position in Christ.

You're ignoring the plain, compelling evidence for loss of faith/salvation in the Bible in favor of less plain, not as compelling, non-specific evidence to support OSAS that MUST bend in light of that more compelling evidence.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

George you can ramble on about the law, but none of us has brought that up.

As I just posted, almost every warning of scripture that relates to the need for a believer to continue in faith, is directly related to the law.

The specific problem in the churches in the early church was the leaven of the Judaizers--Jews who tried to impress the Mosaic law on gentile believers entering the church. That's why it has more than it's fair share of attention in NT scripture. But, as you say, not all warnings of falling away are because of relying on law to be justified. That being true why do you insist on sticking to this horrible doctrine that all failure in Christ is because people choose instead to follow the law. Now, at this time in the church, that is probably the most unlikely reason a person falls away from Christ because the church has so effectively made 'law', and 'works' the four letter words of the faith.

If the condition of faith is the standard of salvation, and the law is not of faith, of course I will continue to make the true biblical position in my post. In grace salvation is absolute and secure, the only warnings of scripture that might suggest that one could be removed from this security is that one rejects grace and returns to the law of Moses. So you may not like the truth, it may not tickle the ears? But it cannot be challenged.

There are many warnings of returning to sin, not law keeping, as the reason why someone is removed from the hope of the kingdom. And to say without exception that a return to sin is the result of trying to keep the law is simply adding to scripture. We showed you that sin was in the world long before the Law of Moses was around to make that sin in a person. If you read the passage it says law arouses the sin that is already in us by nature, not makes it where there was none before. Law increases the trespass, not creates it.

The irony of your doctrine is it's a non-OSAS doctrine. Yet you resist non-OSAS so loudly out the other side of your mouth.

 

[gr8grace]

You need to start listening.

The doubt is not in the sure Word of God. What remains in doubt is if you are going to continue to 'have faith', aka 'believe', to the very end so you can inherit what has so surely been promised to those who believe.

Hopefully now it will be impossible for you to misrepresent the argument any longer.

Do you understand the argument now?

I have read through it. And this is what i see from the debate.

Gods word and promises are sure. everyone agrees.

But Gods word and promises become unsure if we stop believing (you) and unsure if we habitually sin( most others) and unsure if we(follow the law) George.

Now this is just my perspective and being honest from what I have read. Everyone that is active in this thread and giving their opinion agrees with each other....somehow we can lose salvation. Semantics.

The new creature in Christ that a believer never loses, does not sin,never stops believing and follows the Law to a tee. Our flesh is not going and for the most part our flesh has been debating for the last 300 posts if the flesh has eternal security or not. That is why it is so hard to have fellowship and Grow in his Grace and Knowledge on this site. We can't even get past salvation and how it works.

If we do not know Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and If we do not believe in our complete and eternal security.We will not go anywhere as Christians and the Spiritual life.

See, you said it, but you seem to still not be able to see it--"(T)hrough faith alone".

Faith is how we access the sure, un-bendable, ironclad, eternal, promise of God in salvation. But OSAS says you can lose that component and you still have access to the sure promise. Not a chance. If that was true there would be zero warnings in the NT about losing your faith and, as a result, your position in Christ.

You're ignoring the plain, compelling evidence for loss of faith/salvation in the Bible in favor of less plain, not as compelling, non-specific evidence to support OSAS that MUST bend in light of that more compelling evidence.

Did you actually read the OP Jethro? You are ignoring the PROOF of eternal security. You are using experiential sanctification verses for a believer or warning verses for the unbeliever to prove conditional security and I am using clear DOGMATIC verses that prove eternal security.

Who makes our faith effective for salvation? Us or the holy Spirit?

Do we ever have the power to save ourselves? At what point do we gain the power over salvation?

 

[George Muller]

They are not ignored. We can't get past salvation and How truly simple it is. We can't go beyond that. We all sit at salvation and never get to some meat.

For Christians ALL of these warnings are for our experiential,on going,progressive sanctification. And Have NOTHING to do with our position in Christ.

Well Greatgrace, this is just your opinion and your attempt to dismiss these things as if they do not relate to our "position in Christ" ??? Our position in Christ is based upon grace, thus when one rejects grace they "fall" from that position. And this very warning about the angels who left their first estate "position" and was judged because they did not stay in that "position". And you may feel free to limit the ability of your own understanding, but to somehow claim "we all" are in some place of ignorance in regards to the Word of Righteousness is only to attempt to restrict others to your own box of tradition and doctrines as to avoid the issue in which you seem to lack understanding yourself. I have eaten of the strong meat and I am attempting to set a plate before others, but it is called the "word of righteousness" Gods righteousness, not mans. Those who yet look the law are carnal and babes in Christ. Those who have no confidence in the flesh, are spiritual.

 

[George Muller]

George you can ramble on about the law, but none of us has brought that up.

As I just posted, almost every warning of scripture that relates to the need for a believer to continue in faith, is directly related to the law.

The specific problem in the churches in the early church was the leaven of the Judaizers--Jews who tried to impress the Mosaic law on gentile believers entering the church. That's why it has more than it's fair share of attention in NT scripture. But, as you say, not all warnings of falling away are because of relying on law to be justified. That being true why do you insist on sticking to this horrible doctrine that all failure in Christ is because people choose instead to follow the law. Now, at this time in the church, that is probably the most unlikely reason a person falls away from Christ because the church has so effectively made 'law', and 'works' the four letter words of the faith.

If the condition of faith is the standard of salvation, and the law is not of faith, of course I will continue to make the true biblical position in my post. In grace salvation is absolute and secure, the only warnings of scripture that might suggest that one could be removed from this security is that one rejects grace and returns to the law of Moses. So you may not like the truth, it may not tickle the ears? But it cannot be challenged.

There are many warnings of returning to sin, not law keeping, as the reason why someone is removed from the hope of the kingdom. And to say without exception that a return to sin is the result of trying to keep the law is simply adding to scripture. We showed you that sin was in the world long before the Law of Moses was around to make that sin in a person. If you read the passage it says law arouses the sin that is already in us by nature, not makes it where there was none before. Law increases the trespass, not creates it.

The irony of your doctrine is it's a non-OSAS doctrine. Yet you resist non-OSAS so loudly out the other side of your mouth.

Just as I don't allow Great to explain away these warnings your explanation does not change the facts of scripture "the law is not of faith"

And please post some of these many warnings in which you speak and I will make sure the context is also known, There are "some" that do not relate to the "sin" of returning to the law, but most are in regards to that very issue.