OSAS....Not !

[Vic C.]

Hi Vic,
Actually, the Bible says that Abraham kept God's Law and commandments (Genesis 26:5).

Good morning Jay. I believe what that verse is referring to is not salvation but reward. Lets read the verse above 26:5;

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Isaac was to be blessed because of Abraham's obedience. Abraham found Grace in the eyes of the Lord not only because of obedience, but because of his faith.

Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

And to the question about: 'Where in the Bible does it say man, is to keep God's Law' ?
Eccl. 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil".
Verse 14 clearly tells us, that the Law of God will be the standard, by which every person will be Judged by, in the Day of God's Judgment.

Jay, Moses disobeyed God, David disobeyed God in many big ways and countless others too in the OT but yet they found Grace through their faith in the Almighty.

Grace through faith... sounds familiar, heh? :wink:

Oh, concerning Eccl. 12:13-14, don't get your judgements confused. This is not referring to the Judgement of Christ. If you are truely a born-again believer, this is how you will be judged;

1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Cor 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Solo]

Amen, Vic. :D

 

[Servant_2000]

Eccl. 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

There is a tendency among Sabbatarians to exaggerate the all-inclusive nature of the Ten Commandments. The above quote is a favorite "proof text"

But nothing in this text indicates that Solomon was thinking only of the Ten Commandments. A pious Jew reading this scripture is likely think of the 613 commandments of the Torah.

On the other hand, a Christian might also legitimately include such commandments as "Be baptized" or "Go into all the world and preach the gospel."


Be of good cheer.
Servant

PS..Thanks Vic!

 

[wavy]

But nothing in this text indicates that Solomon was thinking only of the Ten Commandments. A pious Jew reading this scripture is likely think of the 613 commandments of the Torah.

*applause*

On the other hand, a Christian might also legitimately include such commandments as "Be baptized" or "Go into all the world and preach the gospel."

And they should. In addition to others, not in conflict with them (such as do this vs. the other 613).

Deuteronomy 8:3 ...man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of יהוה doth man live.

Not just the ten commandments, or what's in the Brit Chadasha (NT) or what's only on the Tanach.

Psalm 119:160 Thy Word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Or, more accurately:

Psalm 119:160 The sum of Your Word is true; every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.

 

[wavy]

First John was a whole letter written. You can't pull one verse in 2 and one verse in 3 and come up with an assumption. First John tells us what the commandments are:

23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Adventists pull pieces from 1 John to say the commandments are the ten commandments, but you can see, the letter itself defines it's own definitions.

Well, we can't just use this scripture when Torah/Law is the topic. This scripture becomes a favorite for the antinomian (not calling you one).

But if this scripture is interpreted in light of "all we have to do", then this voids baptism and loving יהוה and several other things.

This, obviously, is for emphasis in a lacking area. This is in regards to the great mitzvah/commandment from which all the rest flow. This should be our attitude in completing the rest.

One warning: Make sure what you understand as the "law of God" is not equivalent to the SDAs definition of it. They think the "Law" is limited to the 10 Commandments, where in reality, the law can refer to the pentatuch or just the law from Sinai.

Agreed.

 

[gingercat]

Hi everyone,

I believe most Christians follow this theology and practice. Am I wrong?

I believe if we stop following Him and do not repent of our sins we won't enter into His kingdom.

thank you

 

[Jay T]

And God dealt with His enemy: Satan is in the pit.

This is what scriptures tell us.

The Bible also tells us the 'satan, which deceives the whole world', (Revelation 12:9)

And if His enemy has been dealt with, what need therefore is there of instructions? For there is no longer an enemy to defeat.

So then, you've resisted every one of satan's temptations in your life ?

I wish I could say the same thing....as satan always tries to get me to commit some sin, whereby he gains control over me (IF) when...I fail to live a sinless life, as Jesus says to do.

 

[Servant_2000]

Well, we can't just use this scripture when Torah/Law is the topic. This scripture becomes a favorite for the antinomian (not calling you one).

Thank you for not calling me one..to be under grace does not make one an antinomian.

 

[Servant_2000]

Wavy,

You do realize, however that those who have not yet seen that the work of Jesus Christ is totally sufficient for their salvation will accuse me of antinomianism, of "trampling the law of God underfoot."?

 

[wavy]

Yes. I also realize that while being "under grace" does not make one antinomian, being "under grace" does not mean we may break the Torah freely.

 

[Servant_2000]

Yes. I also realize that while being "under grace" does not make one antinomian, being "under grace" does not mean we may break the Torah freely.

Wavy,
I'm going to quote Paul for you -- Colossians 2:13-19, -- and then I will ask you some questions. Are you game?

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. HE forgave us all our sins, having CANCELED THE WRITTEN CODE, WITH ITS REGULATIONS, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; HE TOOK IT AWAY, NAILING IT TO THE CROSS. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

THEREFORE DO NOT LET ANYONE JUDGE YOU BY WHAT YOU EAT OR DRINK, OR WITH REGARD TO a religious festival, a new moon celebration A SABBATH DAY. THESE ARE A SHADOW of the things that were to come; THE REALITY, however, IS FOUND IN CHRIST. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the THE WORSHIP OF ANGELS disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the hole body, supported and held togethert by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow."

******* Q U E S T I O N *******

I believe that "the written code, with its regulations" was the law of God as found in the first five books of the Bible or Torah. The NIV Study Bible footnote says this: Written code. A business term, meaning a certificate of indebtedness in the debtor's handwriting. Paul uses it as a designation for the Mosaic law, with all its regulations, under which everyone is a debtor to God."

Now do you disagree with this interpretation, which almost all Christian scholars accept? Or do you think the "written code" means something else?

Looking foreward to your answer,

 

[Jay T]

Yes. I also realize that while being "under grace" does not make one antinomian, being "under grace" does not mean we may break the Torah freely.

You're right.
satan has convinced the Christian world that Grace, is in opposition to the Law of God (Which is God's Righteousness).

The purpose of Grace, is the power to keep, the Law of God Romans 6:14-16).

 

[Servant_2000]

Yes. I also realize that while being "under grace" does not make one antinomian, being "under grace" does not mean we may break the Torah freely.

You're right.
satan has convinced the Christian world that Grace, is in opposition to the Law of God (Which is God's Righteousness).

The purpose of Grace, is the power to keep, the Law of God Romans 6:14-16).

Have a dose of Galatians....

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

 

[wavy]

Are you game?

Always. :-D

Everything you need to know about my game has been answered in "Wavy's Views". Check the sig. You'll find what you're looking for in the list. See #3.

I believe that "the written code, with its regulations" was the law of God as found in the first five books of the Bible or Torah.

First five books of the bible have been nailed to the cross, eh? Yahweh's "triumphed" (Colossians 2:15) over his own law, eh?

The Messiah that promotes this says: "I have not come to destroy the law or the prophets. And I also am not coming to fulfill the law or the prophets either. I have come to NAIL THEM TO MY CROSS! West side, punks."

The NIV Study Bible footnote says this: Written code. A business term, meaning a certificate of indebtedness in the debtor's handwriting. Paul uses it as a designation for the Mosaic law, with all its regulations, under which everyone is a debtor to God."

This is opinion about how Paul uses it. What was taken and nailed was our sins that are recorded. Torah was for us, unless we disobeyed it. So what needs to be taken is our sin as defined in Torah not the Torah itself (Romans 7:24).

If Yahweh wanted to justify us, he would not have to forgive sin. All he had to do was get rid of the Torah and we'd be free from sin because where no law is, there is no transgression! (Romans 4:15).

Now do you disagree with this interpretation, which almost all Christian scholars accept? Or do you think the "written code" means something else?

Looking foreward to your answer,

Almost all of them because they are biased. However, acceptance among the majority never constituted truth before and it doesn't now. Also, "written code" is incorrect, imo.

This is also sort of ridiculous, because if this refers to Torah, then this would not be true:

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

So this cannot be true, since even as he was hanging, he nailed the Torah that said this to his cross and took it out of the way!!

Where is he quoting from? The 5th book of Torah: Deuteronomy 21:23.

Also, if this was true, then these commandments do not exist:

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The יהוה is our God, יהוה is one
Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love יהוה thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am יהוה.

Messiah made it clear that these commandments were in the Torah and that the rest hung from this (Matthew 22:37-40; Luke 10:25-28). They are not "new laws" that he instituted. These scriptures deny that.

This makes me laugh (nothing against you, however).

Anyway. Please see #3 in Wavy's Views for my opinion on this scripture.

 

[Servant_2000]

Wavy,

I'm going to quote the same passage from Paul for you -- Colossians 2:13-19, -- and then I will ask you some more questions. Are you still with me?

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. HE forgave us all our sins, having CANCELED THE WRITTEN CODE, WITH ITS REGULATIONS, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; HE TOOK IT AWAY, NAILING IT TO THE CROSS. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

THEREFORE DO NOT LET ANYONE JUDGE YOU BY WHAT YOU EAT OR DRINK, OR WITH REGARD TO a religious festival, a new moon celebration A SABBATH DAY. THESE ARE A SHADOW of the things that were to come; THE REALITY, however, IS FOUND IN CHRIST. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the THE WORSHIP OF ANGELS disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the hole body, supported and held togethert by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow."

******* Q U E S T I O N S *******

I believe that the cancellation of "the written code," the nailing of it "to the cross" represented the finished fulfillment of the deeds of the Torah law -- which includes the Ten Commandment law, which includes the Fourth Commandment, the Sabbath Commandment -- by Jesus Christ's life and death.

What do you think it means? How was "the written code" canceled? What did Paul mean by saying Jesus Christ nailed it to the cross?

Waiting for your answer,

 

[wavy]

I believe that the cancellation of "the written code," the nailing of it "to the cross" represented the finished fulfillment of the deeds of the Torah law -- which includes the Ten Commandment law, which includes the Fourth Commandment, the Sabbath Commandment -- by Jesus Christ's life and death.

What do you think it means? How was "the written code" canceled? What did Paul mean by saying Jesus Christ nailed it to the cross?

Waiting for your answer,

I answered all of this in my post before this. "Finished fulfillment"? How is that anywhere indicated? Nailing something to the cross and taking it out of the way would be nearly the total opposite of "fulfill".

For more information, you can see #1 in "Wavy's Views" and the other one (can't remember the number) "Yochanan 5:18 Accusers Refuted" (it's also on the first page of the Apologetics/Theology forum). The "fulfill" argument is a weak one.

 

[Jay T]

[quote="Jay T":99f46]

Yes. I also realize that while being "under grace" does not make one antinomian, being "under grace" does not mean we may break the Torah freely.

You're right.
satan has convinced the Christian world that Grace, is in opposition to the Law of God (Which is God's Righteousness).

The purpose of Grace, is the power to keep, the Law of God Romans 6:14-16).

Have a dose of Galatians....

Why ?
Do you think Galations is going to contadict what was written in the rest of the Bible ?

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ;

OH No....Romans 2:13 is wrong ?
2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Or, is this another Bible verse we should toss out, as not valid ?

you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness....

[/quote:99f46]Had you read what the Bible terms as Righteousness.....
Psalms 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments [are] righteousness.
Now, do you believe what is written here ?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Christ is our righteousness! It's all about Christ and HIS works and HIS obedience of the commandments THROUGH us. The old man is dead...now it's Christ that lives in us. Dead people can't obey anything!

 

[SputnikBoy]

Christ is our righteousness! It's all about Christ and HIS works and HIS obedience of the commandments THROUGH us. The old man is dead...now it's Christ that lives in us. Dead people can't obey anything!

Hmmm. So, no effort of obedience is required from us?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

The only work that is required of us is belief. And it's this belief in Jesus is what will fulfill the works of God THROUGH US.

Do you understand?

Because I believe in Jesus and because Christ is the one who's living and I'm dead - then I don't murder. I don't steal. I love my neigbour. I love one another (the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts BY THE HOLY GHOST). And the only effort that comes in is the work of God - BELIEF!!!

I can tell you right now....that I don't obey any of the commandments. Nope! I don't wake up in the morning and think 'Gee I better not kill anyone today' - I don't have to. Why? Because it's no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me. Christ does not murder so I don't murder because he's the one that's living and not me. Therefore HE FULFILS the law through us and not me.

If it was left up to me then I'd be doomed and so would you. Anything that YOU DO from your own strength is seen as filthy rags to the Lord. The only works that mean anything are the righteous works of Christ in you - nothing more.

Once you've realised this then you are no longer under a schoolmaster but you are graduated and walking in grace through faith.

Dead people can't obey anything - they're crucified with Christ (or should be)...it sounds like you are trying to resurrect your flesh and trying to obey the law with this 'flesh' of yours. IF this is what you're doing - then you WILL fail!!!! Good luck with that