OSAS....Not !

[Merry Menagerie]

Paul explains the war within believers very well, but only those that are taught by the Holy Spirit will understand.

Very true!

 

[Solo]

Paul explains the war within believers very well, but only those that are taught by the Holy Spirit will understand.

Very true!

Merry Menagerie,
I have enjoyed reading your posts. You are on the right path as are many others. If it wasn't for the Holy Spirit, we would be in a mess. Thanks to God for his guidence, protection, mercy, forgiveness, and grace.
God bless you and yours,
Michael

 

[thessalonian]

Hi Av,

I'll probably regret jumping into debating false teachings but will give it one more try in case 1 or 2 are being called by God. Again, it is impossible to lose our salvation because Jesus saved us through his death which can never be taken back. To say we can lose it is saying that we save ourselves which is impossible. Our salvation has nothing to do with anything we've done. Jesus said; "I didn't come from the righteous but the sinners." Human nature trying to fix human nature is the blind leading the blind. Once we are born again, our lives are lived simply to complete the work that God prepared for us in advance to do. (Eph. 2:10). That is what the bible means by "working out our salvation." It does not mean that we can save ourselves which is not only the epitome of arrogance and pride, but a falsehood as well.

What? God's grace working in us AFTER we are saved has no power? His grace that causes us to do good works has no power?

Eph 3
[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

You raise straw men when you say we can save ourselves. We cannot and that is not what the Catholic Church teaches. But God working in us is very powerful. It is not us saving ourselves but he brings about our salvation, giving us the grace that we need to do the works that we will be judged by. EVERY SINGLE verse about judgement speaks about the works we will be judge by.

Romans 2:4-8 and Matt 25, the sheep and the goats for instance. If the works are not completed then the grace given did not have the effect and so we will be among the damned. We can resist grace.

Blessings

 

[Klee shay]

His grace that causes us to do good works has no power?

I don't believe people are saying His good works has no power. Quite the contrary, for many have said it is Christ's sacrifice which saves mankind and it is him working through us which is good.

I believe what is being explained is that the power begins and ends with God and in no way enters our realm of control. I'm talking about the "power" specifically here, not the ability to make the right choices Christ has explained to us as righteous. Yet even then, the Lord influences us by his grace through the Holy Spirit, so making the right choices becomes second nature.

When we become one with the Lord he is in us and we are in him, as much is possible with our coat of sinful flesh remaining. His power is all consuming - ours is but a grain of sand in the ocean.

 

[thessalonian]

His grace that causes us to do good works has no power?
I don't believe people are saying His good works has no power. Quite the contrary, for many have said it is Christ's sacrifice which saves mankind and it is him working through us which is good. [quote:51a6c]

When us Catholics say it, it is twisted in to we believe that our works apart from faith and grace can save us. That is not what the Catholic Church teaches. And yes some of your OSAS friends say God's grace in works has no power. You are hardly all unified in your theology.

[quote:51a6c]I believe what is being explained is that the power begins and ends with God and in no way enters our realm of control. I'm talking about the "power" specifically here, not the ability to make the right choices Christ has explained to us as righteous. Yet even then, the Lord influences us by his grace through the Holy Spirit, so making the right choices becomes second nature.

Good does not come automatically. Paul himself said "the good that I would do, I do not, while the EVIL that I would not do I do. So your second nature theory is suspect.

Heb 4
[10] for whoever enters God's rest also ceases from his labors as God did from his.
[11] Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience.

Note that we must strive to enter the Lord's rest. Also note the possibility of falling due to disobedience in this verse.

This kinda goes along with Jesus words:

[24] "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

To be in Christ and persevere takes effort on our part. Of course God gives us the grace to complete the effort. But it is not easy as your post implies.

[quote:51a6c]When we become one with the Lord he is in us and we are in him, as much is possible with our coat of sinful flesh remaining. His power is all consuming - ours is but a grain of sand in the ocean.

[/quote:51a6c][/quote:51a6c][/quote:51a6c]

Well then we wouldn't be striving if we were overwhelmed with his power daily would we. Irresistable grace is false. If it were not false, Paul would not have said to timothy that God wills that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. God therefore, if he wills all to be saved MUST give all men sufficient grace to become saved or the verse is nonsense. But I am not a universalist and many if not most perish anyway.

Blessings

 

[Klee shay]

And yes some of your OSAS friends say God's grace in works has no power. You are hardly all unified in your theology.

They are my friends as you are - in Christ - even more so as brethren in Christ. For in what we disagree with interpretation of scriptures, we agree in that Christ is our saviour.

Mankind cannot be truly unified until the second coming of Christ.

Good does not come automatically. Paul himself said "the good that I would do, I do not, while the EVIL that I would not do I do. So your second nature theory is suspect.

Where did I say it would be automatic? Are you adding to what was not written in my post? I said; "Yet even then, the Lord influences us by his grace through the Holy Spirit, so making the right choices becomes second nature."

It is not an iron-clad guarantee that one can be perfect in all things through Christ; but the more we put on his yoke the easier it "becomes" to have our Holy Spirit make the right choices for us.

To be in Christ and persevere takes effort on our part. Of course God gives us the grace to complete the effort. But it is not easy as your post implies.

Once again - where did I say it was easy? Show me the words which implied this.

Well then we wouldn't be striving if we were overwhelmed with his power daily would we.

Did Daniel strive with the lions or did God prevail for Daniel instead? Did Moses strive to part the Red Sea or did God prevail for Moses and the children of Israel instead? Did David strive to kill Golliath or did God prevail also for David to succeed?

What we strive against on a daily basis is to prevail against the temptations of life. It was the original punishment for eating from the tree of knowledge. Striving is part of God's plan to teach us about his goodness so why would he abolish it completely in our lives on this earth?

Irresistable grace is false.

Yes, because it denies the will of man and God will not deny man his will. What I spoke about was the Holy's Spirits power to influence us in our lives. When you taste of God's goodness it does become irresistable in some aspects. It becomes like an addiction to be loved and provided for by him. Yet that does not automatically foresake the will of man because we become addicted to God's goodness.

No, we are and always will be a stiff-neck people.

But I am not a universalist and many if not most perish anyway.

How quick you are to judge. Does the Lord give you that power to decide who will receive damnation for all eternity? Let us not play God with the salvation of others.

 

[Cure of Ars]

So what you're really saying is that God justifies himself to himself by the work HE does in people? Strange!

It might be strange because God’s ways are beyond our ways. If you consider that we become a part of Christ then it is not so strange. We “become partakers of the divine nature†(1 Peter 1:4) and because of this our works are God’s works. But what you are saying is a lot stranger and I must be misunderstanding you. So please correct me if I am wrong.


1. Our works apart from God's grace are dirty rags.

2. We are saved by the work of faith, that is not from God’s grace, and it justifies us to God.

Therefore dirty rags justify us.



I agree with the first statement but I disagree with number two and the logical conclusion. What you are saying is a semi-pelagian heresy so I must be misunderstand your position.

My own way? My own logical things that I think make me Holy God then let's me know in no uncertain terms that my own works are dead without his works. My works fail - his never does.

When you follow your own way, is this not a sin? If you follow God’s spirit then your works are then holy right?

Quote:
So do you believe in works salvation because belief is a work? Is not belief a gift from God?


Yep!

Are you saying yep to both questions? I don’t understand.

Only those who do not have faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross need to worry about their salvation. I am 100% certain and confident that I will make it. Because it's God's work in me that will persevere and he is infallable. I always feel sad for those who doubt the Lord's power and therefore their salvation. I used to be just like that once and it almost killed me.

It’s a nice thought but it is not true. It is not a doubt in the Lord’s power but in the possibility that we can reject and squander our inheritance, the grace that God gives us. Here are some passages that clearly show this.

"Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore, let him who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall." I Corinthians 10:11-12

"But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." I Corinthians 9:27

"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace." Galatians 5:4

What's this got to do with Catholic? Why do you always insist on bringing up Catholicism? I couldn't care less what the catholic position. I'm not trying to understand or grasp anyone else' position but God's.

Then what is the point in talking if we are not to understand each other?

You want to give yourself the credit and the glory and be justified by works that are not don't by you but are done by God. I do not! I wish to give God the glory for everything in me that is good.

You are forgetting that I said that my good works are only from the grace of God.

Then why do you think...if God does all these things in us do you think we can lose our salvation like it is a bunch of keys? I don't believe that you agree with that statement at all. I know you say you do...but I don't believe it...I'm sorry.

I believe that we always have free will and can reject the gifts of God. Even after we say yes, God does not take away the ability to say no. It’s ok if you don’t believe me, you don’t understand me, and you don’t care to remember.

And yet you think that God's power and grace are so weak that He is unable to keep us until the end. And that saddens me.

After you were saved, have you never rejected God’s grace?

I'm sorry but I do believe that's what you believe. I don't even think you realise it. I didn't either when I believed as you did. It took God a long time to prove HIS power to me. I pray for your enlightenment.

Again if you don’t care to try to understand me then how do you know what I believe?

And you think that I can overide my new creation in Christ and make myself lose salvation that god put there and that God preserves in me...thus making me more powerful than God.

It’s not about power it’s about love. God will not force us to love him and stay within the family of God. Salvation is like an inheritance that can be squandered see the parable of the lost son if you do not believe me (Luke 15:11-32).

And now I have complete assurance in my salvation because it's not preserved by my feeble efforts...and you have no idea how much better that feels!

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received a spirit of adoption, through which we cry, "Abba, Father!"The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

Sometimes following God does not feel good, we are called to suffer so we will be glorified with Christ.

 

[thessalonian]

And yes some of your OSAS friends say God's grace in works has no power. You are hardly all unified in your theology.

They are my friends as you are - in Christ - even more so as brethren in Christ. For in what we disagree with interpretation of scriptures, we agree in that Christ is our saviour.

Let's all sing kumbayah while they trash and slander what I believe shall we. All one big happy Christian family while they lie and distort and slander and you sit idly by and rebuke them not.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

It might be strange because God’s ways are beyond our ways. If you consider that we become a part of Christ then it is not so strange. We “become partakers of the divine nature†(1 Peter 1:4) and because of this our works are God’s works. But what you are saying is a lot stranger and I must be misunderstanding you. So please correct me if I am wrong.


1. Our works apart from God's grace are dirty rags.

2. We are saved by the work of faith, that is not from God’s grace, and it justifies us to God.

Therefore dirty rags justify us.

Actually your half correct. Dirty rags justify our weak we really are and how much we need a saviour. That I know from experience.

I agree with the first statement but I disagree with number two and the logical conclusion. What you are saying is a semi-pelagian heresy so I must be misunderstand your position.

You must be is all I can say.

Quote:
My own way? My own logical things that I think make me Holy God then let's me know in no uncertain terms that my own works are dead without his works. My works fail - his never does.


When you follow your own way, is this not a sin? If you follow God’s spirit then your works are then holy right?

When I try and work myself they may be sinful - yes but they may also be empty and vain works and will show God just how much I really believe in his son Jesus Christ - which wasn't all that much obviously if I felt I needed to do the work myself.

My works are made Holy because I believe in the one performing the works in me.

Are you saying yep to both questions? I don’t understand.

Belief is A work and it's the only work that we are to perform. When we believe then Christ is able to perform the works IN US and THROUGH US. What we are basically saying to God when we believe in Jesus is that we are in need of a saviour and we have accepted Christ's works on the cross for ourselves. We are saying that we are dead to sin and alive to God and that its' no longer us that lives but Christ that lives in us.

It’s a nice thought but it is not true. It is not a doubt in the Lord’s power but in the possibility that we can reject and squander our inheritance, the grace that God gives us. Here are some passages that clearly show this.

I'm sorry to say this but you do not know me or my life story so you cannot know what God has shown me in his word.

Quote:
"Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore, let him who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall." I Corinthians 10:11-12


Quote:
"But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." I Corinthians 9:27

The steps of the goodman are ordered by the Lord and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall he will not be utterly cast down for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand.

Quote:
"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace." Galatians 5:4

Funny you should quote this one..because this is talking about us trying to be justified by the works of the Lord and not of God's grace. Which totally brings home what I've been saying all along. Maybe I should quote Galatians 3 for you?

Then what is the point in talking if we are not to understand each other?

I'm trying to set you free.


[quoe]Quote:
You want to give yourself the credit and the glory and be justified by works that are not don't by you but are done by God. I do not! I wish to give God the glory for everything in me that is good.


You are forgetting that I said that my good works are only from the grace of God. [/quote]

And yet you wish to glorified yourself for these works that God gave you.

I believe that we always have free will and can reject the gifts of God. Even after we say yes, God does not take away the ability to say no. It’s ok if you don’t believe me, you don’t understand me, and you don’t care to remember.

I don't care about the catholic position because I don't work with 'labels' we are all followers of Christ are we not? You also underestimate the power of god when you say that we can reject the gifts of God. We have free will - sure...but God can manipulate our will so that we DESIRE God. Remember, he's the one who gives us our desires.

Quote:
And yet you think that God's power and grace are so weak that He is unable to keep us until the end. And that saddens me.

After you were saved, have you never rejected God’s grace?

Yep and I might actually post my testimony on this forum if you like. I rejected it but God then brought me back.

Quote:
I'm sorry but I do believe that's what you believe. I don't even think you realise it. I didn't either when I believed as you did. It took God a long time to prove HIS power to me. I pray for your enlightenment.


Again if you don’t care to try to understand me then how do you know what I believe?

Because I once believed as you did.

Quote:
And you think that I can overide my new creation in Christ and make myself lose salvation that god put there and that God preserves in me...thus making me more powerful than God.


It’s not about power it’s about love. God will not force us to love him and stay within the family of God. Salvation is like an inheritance that can be squandered see the parable of the lost son if you do not believe me (Luke 15:11-32).

...The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts BY THE HOLY GHOST which is given unto us. So even our love for God is given to us by the Holy Ghost. Please remember the parable of the lost son and how HE RETURNED...read why he returned! Was he forced? Was it his free will? Yes! But God allowed something to happen to that son right? What happened to him that made him WANT to return to the Father.

You might find out once you've read my testimony.

Quote:
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received a spirit of adoption, through which we cry, "Abba, Father!"The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

Yep and it re-enforces my point even more! Me being the child of God and all

Sometimes following God does not feel good, we are called to suffer so we will be glorified with Christ.

Actually following takes no effort at all for me. I've suffered in my life time - don't you worry about that!

 

[Klee shay]

Let's all sing kumbayah while they trash and slander what I believe shall we. All one big happy Christian family while they lie and distort and slander and you sit idly by and rebuke them not.

Lie? But who knows all truths? Not I. How can I call them liars when it is Christ who knows the truth.

Distort? By what reasoning - yours or mine? It is Christ who is in absolute clarity and I see Christ in both them and in you. When I see Christ I do not see distortion. So who am I to rebuke for loving Christ? You or them? I say neither.

Slander? By what doctrine? Yours or theirs. Did the Lord our God in heaven not oversee the scriptures written for his son Jesus Christ, for his purpose to show of his goodness. So who do I rebuke for reasoning the scriptures according to their own understanding?

By constantly referring to Christ, am I really being idle? Are my words wasted because I talk about our Lord Jesus and his grace and his works and his power, through God in heaven and the Holy Spirit?

If I have offended you, I apologise. If I have ignorantly demeaned your understanding of Christ also, I apologise. My contributions in this debate is to talk about Christ and his provisions for us all; rather than limiting his access by interpretation. I am not against you and I am not against them. I am for Christ and in him I pray we can be eventually united.

What quarrel should come between you, me and the Lord to justify animosity in interpretation?

 

[thessalonian]

Let's all sing kumbayah while they trash and slander what I believe shall we. All one big happy Christian family while they lie and distort and slander and you sit idly by and rebuke them not.

Lie? But who knows all truths? Not I. How can I call them liars when it is Christ who knows the truth.


Distort? By what reasoning - yours or mine? It is Christ who is in absolute clarity and I see Christ in both them and in you. When I see Christ I do not see distortion. So who am I to rebuke for loving Christ? You or them? I say neither.

Your sounding alot like a relativist to me Klee Shay. Oh, I see the truth in this group and this group and this. Who knows who is right you say. Jesus says "YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE". Truth is knowable Klee Shey. In fact we MUST WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH. John 4. Truth matters Klee and it is in fact knowable. Many other veses I could site.

Slander? By what doctrine? Yours or theirs. Did the Lord our God in heaven not oversee the scriptures written for his son Jesus Christ, for his purpose to show of his goodness. So who do I rebuke for reasoning the scriptures according to their own understanding?

Well what I said was not about reasoning the scriptures. What I said was what the Catholic Church teaches vs. what they claim it teaches. Surely you can discern these things. You can determine if they distort what I believe or not. That has nothing to do with whether it is in truth or error. That is a different question. Should I say that the Mormons taught that Josoph Smith was God the Father? Should I not contradict someone who says that about them, because I know that they don't teach that? Yes, I should. It does not matter if their doctrine is wrong or not. From a witeness (thou shalt not bear false witness) perspective I must be objective and fair in what I say they teach and rebuke other's who distort their teaching. That they are Mormons would give me no right to lie about their beliefs.

By constantly referring to Christ, am I really being idle? Are my words wasted because I talk about our Lord Jesus and his grace and his works and his power, through God in heaven and the Holy Spirit?

Those things are all well and good but truth matters. And we can "know the truth" as Paul and Jesus both say. Your relativism is not the solution.

If I have offended you, I apologise. If I have ignorantly demeaned your understanding of Christ also, I apologise. My contributions in this debate is to talk about Christ and his provisions for us all; rather than limiting his access by interpretation. I am not against you and I am not against them. I am for Christ and in him I pray we can be eventually united.

You have not offended me by your posts. My comments are only because you lack conviction. I will be honest. If everything that Bibleberean says is true, you need to wake me up. I am damned to hell. I bow down before the Eucharist and worship it. If it is not the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ (unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you shall not have life within you." " My flesh is true food, my blood is true drink" John 6) then I am a pagan, damned to hell and if you see Christ in me you are much too lax. But it it is true and I deny it I am among the damned. It is true. Read John 6. It has meaning Klee. Four times Jesus clearly indicates that he is going to perform a miracle that is the Eucharist. It does not allow for fence sitting.

Blessings

What quarrel should come between you, me and the Lord to justify animosity in interpretation?[/quote]

 

[thessalonian]

Let's all sing kumbayah while they trash and slander what I believe shall we. All one big happy Christian family while they lie and distort and slander and you sit idly by and rebuke them not.

Lie? But who knows all truths? Not I. How can I call them liars when it is Christ who knows the truth.


Distort? By what reasoning - yours or mine? It is Christ who is in absolute clarity and I see Christ in both them and in you. When I see Christ I do not see distortion. So who am I to rebuke for loving Christ? You or them? I say neither.

Your sounding alot like a relativist to me Klee Shay. Oh, I see the truth in this group and this group and this. Who knows who is right you say. Jesus says "YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE". Truth is knowable Klee Shey. In fact we MUST WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH. John 4. Truth matters Klee and it is in fact knowable. Many other veses I could site.

Slander? By what doctrine? Yours or theirs. Did the Lord our God in heaven not oversee the scriptures written for his son Jesus Christ, for his purpose to show of his goodness. So who do I rebuke for reasoning the scriptures according to their own understanding?

Well what I said was not about reasoning the scriptures. What I said was what the Catholic Church teaches vs. what they claim it teaches. Surely you can discern these things. You can determine if they distort what I believe or not. That has nothing to do with whether it is in truth or error. That is a different question. Should I say that the Mormons taught that Josoph Smith was God the Father? Should I not contradict someone who says that about them, because I know that they don't teach that? Yes, I should. It does not matter if their doctrine is wrong or not. From a witeness (thou shalt not bear false witness) perspective I must be objective and fair in what I say they teach and rebuke other's who distort their teaching. That they are Mormons would give me no right to lie about their beliefs.

By constantly referring to Christ, am I really being idle? Are my words wasted because I talk about our Lord Jesus and his grace and his works and his power, through God in heaven and the Holy Spirit?

Those things are all well and good but truth matters. And we can "know the truth" as Paul and Jesus both say. Your relativism is not the solution.

If I have offended you, I apologise. If I have ignorantly demeaned your understanding of Christ also, I apologise. My contributions in this debate is to talk about Christ and his provisions for us all; rather than limiting his access by interpretation. I am not against you and I am not against them. I am for Christ and in him I pray we can be eventually united.

You have not offended me by your posts. My comments are only because you lack conviction. I will be honest. If everything that Bibleberean says is true, you need to wake me up. I am damned to hell. I bow down before the Eucharist and worship it. If it is not the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ (unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you shall not have life within you." " My flesh is true food, my blood is true drink" John 6) then I am a pagan, damned to hell and if you see Christ in me you are much too lax. But it it is true and I deny it I am among the damned. It is true. Read John 6. It has meaning Klee. Four times Jesus clearly indicates that he is going to perform a miracle that is the Eucharist. It does not allow for fence sitting.

What quarrel should come between you, me and the Lord to justify animosity in interpretation?

I can see where a Protestant would come to this point where they would just throw up their hands and say interprutations are unimportant. I have no animosity toward anyone on this board by the way. But the truth does matter. Interpretations do matter and there are not multiple correct ones that contradict.

Blessings

 

[Klee shay]

If Jesus said the meek shall inherit the earth...does that make them fence sitters too? Or does that just make them meek?

Your understanding of a fence sitter is someone who is either on your side or on the other side. It leaves no room for grace. Praise the Lord that he is prepared to be forgiving and abundant to those who do not seek their own glory.

 

[thessalonian]

If Jesus said the meek shall inherit the earth...does that make them fence sitters too? Or does that just make them meek?

Your understanding of a fence sitter is someone who is either on your side or on the other side. It leaves no room for grace. Praise the Lord that he is prepared to be forgiving and abundant to those who do not seek their own glory.

Are you accusing me of seeking my own glory? I could really care less. Generally what I have gotten on this website is not my own glorry but ridicule and belittling for my Catholic views. Distortions and slanders of what my faith teaches. But I press on, knowing that some seek truth and those who do not he will deal with.

I seek God's glory in the full revelation he has given and the truth that can be known. To have a Bible with no way of knowing for certain the truths it teaches it is very sad indeed. That does not bring glory to God. That does not bring grace to those who are in error. Error is not neutral. Wrong doctrine contributes nothing to salvation and sanctification. It contributes nothing to the growth of the Christian. In fact it is a negative in our Christian walk. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free". Error enslaves. Truth liberates. The one who is free from error is free to give glory to God for freeing him from the bondage of sin and false doctrine.

I give glory to God for all that he has revealed in scripture. I find that some of it simply is not optional to the one who reads it. "unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you shall not have life within you.". That verse demands a verdict by the serious Christian. There is plenty of room for grace and I do not judge your eternal destiny because you do not agree with me or the other side. I believe that each man is accountable for the light and grace he has been given. Therefore while I may stand firm in what I believe and be critical of those who do not agree with me I do not judge their heart or destiny. My purpose is only to wake men out of their slumber and in to the greater truth of the Catholic faith. If you feel judged and condemned that is not my purpose.
But perhaps there is a deeper reason.

Blessing

 

[Klee shay]

Are you accusing me of seeking my own glory?

No I was not accusing you of seeking your own glory. It is in context with my comments about the meek inheriting the earth. The meek do not seek their own glory. That does not mean by default that because you do not appear to be meek in this discussion, that you are seeking your own glory.

I was addressing the fence-sitting comments with the Lord's comments about the meek. Therefore I was not addressing your Catholic views or you. Only the comment about fence-sitting.

Generally what I have gotten on this website is not my own glorry but ridicule and belittling for my Catholic views.

Ironcially, that is on the whole how you have treated my views as well. Fence sitting, relativist, etc. I am just speaking about Christ too. Please show me where I have belittled or ridiculed you for your Catholic views, so that I may be aware of my conduct. So far, I thought I was trying to treat your comments with respect even if I do not seem to support them as strongly as you do.

 

[thessalonian]

Klee Shay,

What do these verses mean. They demand a verdict.

John 6

52: The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53: So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
54: he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55: For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56: He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
57: As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
58: This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."

Four times he states quite emphatically and the Jews and his own disciples take him literally. So what does he mean. By the way it is quite clear that this passage is related to the crusifixion.

51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

It is also interesting that John 6 is near the passover, just as Matt 26, the Lord's supper is. See John 6:4.

God bless

 

[Merry Menagerie]

What's this got to do with fence sitting and meekness?

 

[Gary]

John 6:49-59

The literal (i.e., actual) meaning of a text is the correct one, but the literal meaning does not mean that everything should be taken literally. For example, the literal meaning of Jesus’ statement, “I am the true vine†(John 15:1) is that He is the real source of our spiritual life. But it does not mean that Jesus is a literal vine with leaves growing out of His arms and ears! Literal meaning can be communicated by means of figures of speech. Christ is the actual foundation of the church (1 Corinthians 3:11; Ephesians 2:20), but He is not literally a granite cornerstone with engraving on it.

There are many indications in John 6 that Jesus literally meant that the command to “eat His flesh†should be taken in a figurative way. First, Jesus indicated that His statement should not be taken in a materialistic sense when He said, “The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life†(John 6:63). Second, it is absurd and cannibalistic to take it in a physical way. Third, He was not speaking of physical life, but “eternal life†(John 6:54). Fourth, He called Himself the “bread of life†(John 6:48) and contrasted this with the physical bread the Jews ate in the wilderness (John 6:58). Fifth, He used the figure of “eating†His flesh in parallel with the idea of “abiding†in Him (John 15:4-5), which is another figure of speech. Neither figure is to be taken literally. Sixth, if eating His flesh and drinking His blood be taken in a literalistic way, this would contradict other commands of Scripture not to eat human flesh and blood (Acts 15:20).

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So what then does it mean?

John 6:49-50 Jesus contrasted the earthly and heavenly bread. The manna that was given in the wilderness, although sent from heaven to help sustain the Israelites for their physical needs, could not impart eternal life nor meet their spiritual needs as could the "bread of life" (v. 48) that came down from heaven in the person of Jesus the Messiah. The proof of this contrast centers in the irrefutable fact that all the fathers died who ate the wilderness manna.

John 6:51-59 This section may be divided into 3 divisions:

• 1) Jesus’ pronouncement (v. 51);
  2) the crowd’s perplexity (v. 52); and
  3) Jesus’ promises (vv. 53–59).

John 6:51 This pronouncement exactly reiterates vv. 33, 35, 47, 48. My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world. Jesus refers here prophetically to His impending sacrifice upon the cross (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24). Jesus voluntarily laid down His life for evil, sinful mankind (John 10:18; 1 John 2:2).

John 6:52 quarreled. Once again the perplexity of the Jews indicates that they failed to understand the spiritual truth behind Jesus’ illustration. Every time Jesus had given them a veiled saying or physical illustration, the Jews failed to see its spiritual significance (e.g., John 3:4; John 4:15). The Mosaic law prohibited the drinking of blood or the eating of meat with blood still in it (Leviticus 17:10-14; Deuteronomy 12:16; Acts 15:29). The Jews, unable to go beyond the mere physical perspective, were perplexed and angered.

John 6:53-58 eat...drink. Jesus’ point was an analogy that has spiritual, rather than literal, significance: just as eating and drinking are necessary for physical life, so also is belief in His sacrificial death on the cross necessary for eternal life. The eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood metaphorically symbolize the need for accepting Jesus’ cross work. For the Jews, however, a crucified Messiah was unthinkable (cf. Acts 17:1-3). Once again, the Jews, in their willful and judicial blindness, could not see the real spiritual significance and truth behind Jesus’ statements. Moreover, Jesus’ reference here to eating and drinking was not referring to the ordinance of communion for two significant reasons: 1) communion had not been instituted yet, and 2) if Jesus was referring to communion, then the passage would teach that anyone partaking of communion would receive eternal life.

John 6:60-71 These verses constitute the reaction of Jesus’ disciples to His sermon on the "bread of life." As with the crowds’ response in Jerusalem (chap. 5) and in Galilee (chap. 6), the response of many of His disciples was unbelief and rejection of Him. John lists two groups and their reactions: 1) the false disciples’ reaction of unbelief (vv. 60–66), and 2) the true disciples’ reaction of belief (vv. 67–71). After this sermon, only a small nucleus of disciples remained (v. 67).

Source: John F. MacArthur, Jr., The MacArthur Study Bible

 

[thessalonian]

Gary are you capable of writing your own posts or just parroting those ideas of others. I agree that the Lord's supper is figurative. "I am the bread of life" is figurative language and so there is a sense in which it is figurative. The bread that becomes his body is figurative in that the many grains becoem one loaf just as we become one body. But when he says "TRULY TRULY, unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you shall not have life within you". That's pretty clear to me. "MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD, MY BLOOD IS TRUE DRINK". Can only be taken as literal as well. Sorry.

 

[Solo]

Gary are you capable of writing your own posts or just parroting those ideas of others. I agree that the Lord's supper is figurative. "I am the bread of life" is figurative language and so there is a sense in which it is figurative. The bread that becomes his body is figurative in that the many grains becoem one loaf just as we become one body. But when he says "TRULY TRULY, unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you shall not have life within you". That's pretty clear to me. "MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD, MY BLOOD IS TRUE DRINK". Can only be taken as literal as well. Sorry.

What is the importance of the bread and the wine being the real body and blood of Jesus?
And
Why do the Catholic masses that I have witnessed not offer wine with the bread?