OSAS....Not !

[Solo]

Anyone who understands the born again process as being sprinkled with water as an infant has absolutely no idea, and is operating within a mode of "being born into the faith" mentality; however unsaved just the same.

 

[thessalonian]

Anyone who understands the born again process as being sprinkled with water as an infant has absolutely no idea, and is operating within a mode of "being born into the faith" mentality; however unsaved just the same.

So do you think there are two methods of salvatoin. I mean are children saved by one method and adults another, i.e. faith alone? I would assume you don't think that children are saved by faith alone. But as I recall a few days ago you said they did need salvatoin. So it seems to me your proposing two means of salvatoin. What is the other means for children.

So do children not participate in OSAS such that if they are saved in whatever means you have for them, they are not eternally secure and can lose their salvatoin? Thanks in advance for your replies.

Oh and one more thing, at what age must a child come to faith alone so that we know when exactly to get them in to the faith alone salvatoin plan. You know, it doesn't work to well with insurance to be covered under two plans and I would guess your don't get more salvation for your money being under two salvation plans.

By the way FYI, sprinkling is not allowed in the Roman Catholic Church.

God bless

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Children are sanctified by the believing parents until they reach an age of understanding where they can choose Christ.

 

[thessalonian]

Anyone who understands the born again process as being sprinkled with water as an infant has absolutely no idea, and is operating within a mode of "being born into the faith" mentality; however unsaved just the same.

Also, Ms. Klee Shey thinks I might be born again. She says that what is in me might be true for me and what is in you might be true for you and what is in him is true for him. That it doesn't matter because God is bigger than our beliefs so we might all be right. What do you think of that. Do you think that's the Holy Spirit speaking?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Is that what you got from HER post? Goodness!

 

[thessalonian]

Is that what you got from HER post? Goodness!

Have you been following our conversation? Apparently not. I didn't say what I wrote was a summary of just one post. You guys and GALS pay so much attention to what us Catholics say but you could care less about your own and what they say. Attack the Catholic at every turn but who cares what another Protestant tries to teach. Very sad.

Sorry about the gender Klee. I'm new here.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Children are sanctified by the believing parents until they reach an age of understanding where they can choose Christ.

So the parent can save them? Your answer is interesting however since it is essentially the same reason that we baptize children based on the faith of their parents.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

No SANCTIFIED by the parents not saved by the parents.

And again with the catholic thing. If you had never said you were catholic I would never have known.

Yes I've been following your conversation, and I didn't get the things out of her posts as you did.

 

[thessalonian]

No SANCTIFIED by the parents not saved by the parents.

And again with the catholic thing. If you had never said you were catholic I would never have known.

Yes I've been following your conversation, and I didn't get the things out of her posts as you did.

So how is a child saved?

 

[Klee shay]

God is bigger than the boogie man. Ever watch Veggie Tales? Sorry, I can't have a serious conversation with you any more. Your out to lunch. I will pray for your conversion to truth. That is to the word truth that means something.

We're big Veggie Tale fans here. :D

Jesus was written off as being a bit of a nutcase back in his time too. :wink: You just paid me the highest compliment.

Jesus opposed religion - ain't that the truth? :D

 

[thessalonian]

God is bigger than the boogie man. Ever watch Veggie Tales? Sorry, I can't have a serious conversation with you any more. Your out to lunch. I will pray for your conversion to truth. That is to the word truth that means something.

We're big Veggie Tale fans here. :D

Jesus was written off as being a bit of a nutcase back in his time too. :wink: You just paid me the highest compliment.

Jesus opposed religion - ain't that the truth? :D

Ah yes, everyone who's theology is looped has it right. Why just a couple of days ago someone who contradicts your theology implied he was right because he thought my words persecuted him. Jimmy Jones had it right and so did the guy down in Wacko Texas, the Davidian Guy and so did Ellen G. White and Rutherford who started the Seven Day Adventists who don't even believe Jesus was God. Joseph Smith too. Hey I've been called among other things nutz. So we're all right. Your theology has proven itself. Everyone is right because everyone is called "off the wall" at one point or another. Relativism is true. Sarcasm out.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

53: So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

This does not have to be literal to have the same meaning Christ intended his flesh and blood to "represent".

Hi: I hope you'll pardon my barging in...this term you have bolded- why have you bolded it? It is not in the scripture quote. Are you emphasizing your interpretation of the quote?

What is it that this bread and wine represent, in your understanding? And while we're on the topic, a second question, if I may: If Christ only symbolically inhabits the Eucharist, is it also true then that He only symbolically inhabits believers?

Who penned the scriptures? Who were the Apostles? Who translated the scriptures? Who picked which scriptures would be published in one bible? Who preaches to the people in the pews? Who presides over mass? Would that be...man?

You are treading very closely to sounding like a hypocrite. For any religion is the result of man's handiwork. God inspired it may have been but the end result was still brought about by man.

It seems you are trying to say that conflicting truths can both be true and to be kind this is total nonsense.

What you have said is very true at one level, for religion or irreligion, denomination or denomintion- they are all involving and filled with mankind. It is believed by Protestants that God inspired the bible and their reading of it. It is believed by Catholics and Orthodox that God inspired the writing and canonization of the bible, and inspired the corporate reading of the bible. So while it is men who preach and write and preside, if the Spirit does not inspire and guide, you might as well be at a Kiwanis meeting.

A word about religion: this word has become a dirty word in our day, owing to the posturing of the Pietists and the enthronement of individuality within the Western culture. The root word of religion means 'cling together." This would be a good thing, for this is the prayer of Christ, that all of His would be One. There seem to be some religious sensibilities that result in further fracturing; I submit Fundamentalist Protestantism as one of those, and post-modernist liberal Christianity as another.

Conflicting to you maybe, but not to those who are free to love God outside the confines of religion. Did you know it is possible to love God without religion telling you how to?

It is indeed possible, but not desirable, in the ultimate sense.

The faith was delivered once for all to the saints.

Since when did God only do things once when it comes to faith? Are you saying Christ cannot create new creations beyond your understanding?

God has done a great many things only once. He was crucified once, resurrected once, picked Twelve Apostles once, Incarnated once, baptized once.

The quote 'faith delivered once for all the saints' is not interpretation, but scripture.

God told us how he saves man in his holy book and through the Church which is the "pillar and support of the truth" 1 Tim 3:15. Anyone else (you) is just winging it.

Poor Timothy. If only he'd realise what mankind would do to the Lord's church. He spoke the truth then but how things can change. I'm glad to be "anyone else". I'm glad to be winging it with the Lord. No, I don't have an organisation to suckle my scriptural understanding from. I have God instead and he'll breach any limitation mankind throws at him.

As much as I love arguments that highlight God's omnipotence and transcendance, I must disagree with your conclusion. You are arguing that God is not limited to our interpretations, which is right on, but what you fail to acknowledge is that the intent of scripture, doctrine and the like is to limit us, not Him. He can save who He wants, how He wants, but once I have read "forgive that you might be forgiven," I am held to that. The canon of scripture does not circumscribe God, not even close- but it does provide a fence around what I or you may claim as truth, if we claim to have faith in Jesus Christ.

Today, I see people quoting bible at each other, as if to control the other with the bible- when clearly it was intended as a fence around our own lives. Hindus are not held to Christian scripture- Christians are.
James

 

[thessalonian]

Hebrews 12:1

[3]
Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
[4] In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
[5] And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? -- "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor lose courage when you are punished by him.
[6] For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives."
[7] It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
[8] If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
[9] Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
[10] For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
[11] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
[12]
Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees,
[13] and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed.
[14] Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
[15] See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled;
[16] that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.


It sounds an awful lot like Paul is warning those who are Christians among the hebrews to strive against sin here. Note that if you do not "stive for peace with all men, and for the HOLINESS without which no one will see the Lord" you will not see the Lord.

Now are the born again OSAS Christians who hear him saying, ah Paul what are you talking about? We're assured of our salvation. We'll see the Lord. Or perhaps they just had a nap here, saying Paul, your not talking to me. Wake me when you get to the good stuff about how I am already saved. Note the word irreligous. I' m betting most of you would turn your nose up if I asked if you were religous.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

1 Tim 4
14: Do not neglect the gift YOU HAVE, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you.
15: Practice these duties, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress.
16: Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will SAVE both yourself and your hearers.

I thought Timothy was already saved? Why is this speaking future tense? Doesn't Paul know that Timothy's salvation is assured. No need to warn him about anything is there? Does Paul exclude the already born again Christians from his hearers? I don't see it. Would timothy speak only to nonbelievers who don't need to be saved? I don't think you can draw that conclusion. You would think Paul would have said ""SAVE" both yourself and your hearers who have not been saved yet. But he didn't.

There are many more verses that just don't jive with OSAS. I'll keep posting them.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

So how is a child saved?

You don't know? :o

 

[thessalonian]

So how is a child saved?

You don't know? :o

I have my views. I want to hear yours.

 

[Klee shay]

Ah yes, everyone who's theology is looped has it right.

Show me a man who is perfect in his understanding of the Lord, excluding the Lord of course, and I'll show you a liar. :wink:

Why just a couple of days ago someone who contradicts your theology implied he was right because he thought my words persecuted him. Jimmy Jones had it right and so did the guy down in Wacko Texas, the Davidian Guy and so did Ellen G. White and Rutherford who started the Seven Day Adventists who don't even believe Jesus was God. Joseph Smith too. Hey I've been called among other things nutz. So we're all right.

No we are not all emphatically right (as I said above the man who thinks he is, is a liar) but those parts which are based in Christ are. You would believe that everything pertaining to your church is correct and everyone else's understanding is looped.

What did God do when the Jews hoarded his glory for themselves and boasted how great they were? God took his exclusive favour from the Jews and he gave it also to the Gentiles. Man's attempts to confine God to a limited understanding forces God to reach out to others with his message of love, that will hear.

Your theology has proven itself.

Thanks. Those with ears let them hear.

Everyone is right because everyone is called "off the wall" at one point or another. Relativism is true.

You like to deliberately misrepresent me for your witch-hunt, don't you? They burned Christians as well in the past; and the day is coming when those who burned them in the name of "religion" is coming too, and they will be judged for their unrighteous works. Just because man reads the bible and gathers in like minded groups to reach the same understanding of the scriptures, doesn't make them righteous in the slighest. Only Christ is righteous and only the Holy Spirit speaks the truth.

Sarcasm out.

So what you're saying is that you're talking nonesense again and I shouldn't believe you this time as well?

 

[Klee shay]

Hi: I hope you'll pardon my barging in...this term you have bolded- why have you bolded it? It is not in the scripture quote. Are you emphasizing your interpretation of the quote?

What is it that this bread and wine represent, in your understanding?

I have already answered this question a little ways back. Instead of repeating myself again, feel free to go back and read it.

And while we're on the topic, a second question, if I may: If Christ only symbolically inhabits the Eucharist, is it also true then that He only symbolically inhabits believers?

Understand it as you will.

What you have said is very true at one level, for religion or irreligion, denomination or denomintion- they are all involving and filled with mankind. It is believed by Protestants that God inspired the bible and their reading of it. It is believed by Catholics and Orthodox that God inspired the writing and canonization of the bible, and inspired the corporate reading of the bible. So while it is men who preach and write and preside, if the Spirit does not inspire and guide, you might as well be at a Kiwanis meeting.

It's only complicated when you look for regulation. Again - understand it as you will.

A word about religion: this word has become a dirty word in our day, owing to the posturing of the Pietists and the enthronement of individuality within the Western culture. The root word of religion means 'cling together." This would be a good thing, for this is the prayer of Christ, that all of His would be One. There seem to be some religious sensibilities that result in further fracturing; I submit Fundamentalist Protestantism as one of those, and post-modernist liberal Christianity as another.

You can submit what you like. Only Christ is righteous though.

It is indeed possible, but not desirable, in the ultimate sense.

You speak only from what you understand. Was it not Christ who told his apostles to rejoice for he would be joining his father soon? Was it not desirable to leave the group to be with the Father?

Those who seek comfort in their Christianity are not truly seeking Christ. Desire can be manipulated by the enemy.

God has done a great many things only once. He was crucified once, resurrected once, picked Twelve Apostles once, Incarnated once, baptized once.

And notice all these things had to do with Jesus's works - not man's. For Jesus only needed it done once. He did not need to be converted as He was already the son of God. What I was talking about when I said; "Since when did God only do things once when it comes to faith?" I was talking about emploring to man's faith in him.

He has done many things repeatitively to show mankind that he is God and he is good.

The quote 'faith delivered once for all the saints' is not interpretation, but scripture.

It was not displayed as such (no inverted commas or bible reference) so I took it as the original author's opinion.

but what you fail to acknowledge is that the intent of scripture, doctrine and the like is to limit us, not Him. He can save who He wants, how He wants, but once I have read "forgive that you might be forgiven," I am held to that.

As I am held too, only not by my hand or will, but by Christ's. The scriptures aren't about more bondage for mankind, but freedom to love God as God intended. The scriptures were written to fortell of the Lord's son, his purpose and his life, death and resurrection. They were not written for man to fortell his own salvation by obeying the scriptures.

Today, I see people quoting bible at each other, as if to control the other with the bible- when clearly it was intended as a fence around our own lives.

Another barrier. Man is his own barrier to God, whether we are in Christ or not.

 

[Heidi]

The Eucharist does not inhabit believers. The Holy Spirit does. Therefore, the eucharist is symbolic and the Holy Spirit is real life. It's not hard to understand.

 

[thessalonian]

The Eucharist does not inhabit believers. The Holy Spirit does. Therefore, the eucharist is symbolic and the Holy Spirit is real life. It's not hard to understand.

It's apparent that you do not.

Christ is not is not in us? Just the Holy Spirit? Is God somehow dividable such that one part of him can be in us and the other can not?

Gal 1
20: I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

1 John 4
13: By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his own Spirit.


27: To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

I suppose this is all symbolic or something.