OSAS....Not !

[Merry Menagerie]

It's God's work! Not our works. Our works are as filthy rags!

 

[Cure of Ars]

It's God's work! Not our works. Our works are as filthy rags!

Yes it's God's works but scripture also says, "we are God's co-workers" (1 Cor 3:9) Our works are not filthy rags because they belong to God. And have you not read, “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.†(James 2:14-26)

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Yes I have read it and I don't believe that James was talking about justification in God's eyes. I believe he was talking about justification in the eyes of MEN. Either that or Paul and James were contradicting each other...but I dont' think they were. They were talking about two totally different things.

Also God DOES say that our works are as filthy rags. We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. Not by our own works.



"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." (Rom. 4 v 5 – 8 )

 

[Merry Menagerie]

We are told that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and given an earnest guarantee of our salvation (Eph 1:13-14)...we are told that He is able to keep us from stumbling and to present us blameless before the presence of His glory (Jude 24)...we are told that He is at work within us both to will and to do (Phil 2:13)...we are told that He is able to preserve us and deliver us from every evil work (2 Tim 4:18)...we are told that those He justified will be glorified (Rom 8:30)...we are told He will confirm us to the end (1 Cor 1:8)...we are told we are sealed for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30)...we are told we are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation (1 Pet 1:5)...we are told that whatever is born of God overcomes the world (1 John 5:4)...we are told it is God who give the increase (1 Cor 3:6)...we are told we are preserved in Jesus Christ (Jude 1)...we are told He is faithful to those He calls and will preserve them spirit, soul and body (1 Thess 5:23-24)...we are told none shall snatch His sheep out of His hand (John 10:28)...we are told He is able to put His fear in our hearts so that we will not depart from Him (Jer 32:40)...

 

[thessalonian]

I guess it would help if I gave the perspective I was coming from. Man's perspective.

This verse was not about man's works. Faith without God's works is dead. Man can work till his fingers bleed or until he loses his life; but if he calls himself a follower of Christ and yet does not believe Christ is the one who works - then his faith is dead.

It's about God working in us and through us bringing us to the promised land.

For a man cannot save himself by works, only by faith in Christ's work on the cross.

You do not believe the works God brings about in us by his grace have any power with regard to our salvation? Why does he say in Romans 2:4-8:


4: Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
5: But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
6: For he will render to every man according to his works:
7: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8: but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

To the one who has no works, he sends him to wrath and fury. Doesn't just sound like salvation but loss of reward to me. To the one who does good, eternal life. Read Matt 25 about the sheep and the goats as well. It is a bit more detailed but says the same thing. That when we clothe the naked, feed the hungry, etc. etc. we do it to Christ. Those who do not do it he casts in to darkness. Once again it is God working in us to bring about these things by his grace. He gives us the grace to do them. But there is much power in these works that we do in Christ and they MUST EFFECT our salvation or Matt 25 is nonsense.

Adam's punishment for disobeying God was to work the land. God made him work. Eve's punishment for disobeying God was to travail in childbirth. God made her give birth. These are all works God gave us as punishment, therefore what work can man do to save himself?

You are making a mockery of Matt 25 and the grace God gives man to do good works. Does he not say we will produce "thirty, sixty, or 100 fold". You cannot say this is the work that Adam was cursed with when we do the work that God gives us the grace to do. I better posts Matt 25 as I am not sure you have ever read it the way you are talking.

Matt 25
29: For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
30: And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.'
31: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32: Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
33: and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34: Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35: for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36: I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
37: Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
38: And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
39: And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
40: And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
41: Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42: for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43: I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44: Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
45: Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
46: And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Work is the punishment but faith in his Son was the liberty.

Works in faith bring glory to God. That is what you miss. Redeemed works.

When Christ works God is pleased. When man believes in Christ then God is pleased also. For in believing in the son we believe in the father who bore him. Anything by man's hand will come to nought but anything by the Lord's hand comes to the kingdom of God.

Luke 6

46: "Why do you call me `Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?

Matt 7

21: "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Ya better be about doing what he gives you the grace to do. It is made clean by his grace. It will produce thirty, sixty, or 100 fold. If you don't do these things you will be where there is "wailing and nashing of teeth". GOD IS NOT PLEASED WITH A SLOTHFUL SERVANT.

26: But his master answered him, `You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed?

Blessings

 

[AVBunyan]

Lost

I firmly believe that people who promote that a saint can somemhow loose or choose to give up their salvation are...

LOST as a goose in a snowstorm and are on their way to a lake of fire along with the devils they are infested with. And...are as blind as a bat coming in backwards when it comes to seeing any spiritual truth.

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
Titus 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Now - is that clear enough? :-?

God bless

 

[thessalonian]

Re: Lost

I firmly believe that people who promote that a saint can somemhow loose or choose to give up their salvation are...

LOST as a goose in a snowstorm and are on their way to a lake of fire along with the devils they are infested with. And...are as blind as a bat coming in backwards when it comes to seeing any spiritual truth.

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
Titus 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Now - is that clear enough? :-?

God bless

AV,

Got a question for ya. Are you an infallible interpruter of scripture such that you know with 100 percent certainty that all doctrines that you hold true are? A yes or a no will be fine. Thanks.

By the way glad God is my judge. Your infinitely underqualified for the job if you don't mind me saying so. :-D
Blessings

 

[Dave...]

Thess said:

The Catholic go to the verse????? That's kind of incomprehensible. So is this the infallible obvuscation you are going to give me. Faith without works is dead Dave. " Jesus asks why do you say "Lord, Lord" and do not do what I say. " . It's pretty clear that Jesus expects us to act upon our belief or it is dead. I.e. you go to hell. Not a pretty place.

Yes, and Jesus also said that many will say to Him on that day, Lord, didn't we do this, and that, and His reply was..."I never knew you". Why wasn't their Grace activated from their works as you believe? The reason He never knew them is because their faith was in their works, which makes their faith no faith at all.

Look at James 2:23-24 closely.

"This does not contradict Paul's clear teaching that Abraham was justified before God by grace alone through faith alone (Romans 3:20, Romans 4:1-25, Galatians 3:6,11)

James could not mean that Abraham was constituted righteous before God because of his own works because...

1) James already stressed that salvation is a gracious gift (James 1:17-18).

2) In the middle of this disputed passage (v23), James quoted Genesis 15:6, which forcefully claims that God credited righteousness to Abraham solely on basis of his faith (also see Romans 1:17; Romans 3:24; Romans 4:1-25).

3) The work that James said justified Abraham was his offering up of Isaac (Genesis 22:9,12), an event that occurred many years after he first exercised faith and was declared righteous before God (Genesis 12:1-7; Genesis 15:6). Instead, Abraham's offering of Isaac demonstrated the genuineness of his faith and the reality of his justification before God. James is emphasizing the vindication before others of mans claims to salvation. James' teaching perfectly compliments Paul's writing; salvation is determined by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) and demonstrated by faithfulness to obey God's will alone (Ephesians 2:10)." (JMSB)


I'm going to post these even though they are listed above because they are important. I understand what you are trying to say. But it's goes deeper than that, you're stopping short.

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Romans 3:21-24 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Romans 4:1-5 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

2 Corinthians 5:21For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Romans 10:3-4 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

 

[thessalonian]

Yes, and Jesus also said that many will say to Him on that day, Lord, didn't we do this, and that, and His reply was..."I never knew you". Why wasn't their Grace activated from their works as you believe? The reason He never knew them is because their faith was in their works, which makes their faith no faith at all.

:
Why don't you finish that verse in Matt 7.

[21] "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[22] On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
[23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'
[24] "Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock;

Put this together with Matt 25 where he casts out those DO NOT who feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and care for the sick, i.e. the sheep and it makes total sense. Oddly enough he doesn't mention casting out demons in those verses because those are not acts of love per se. You say, nope, don't have to do it. We don't have to be a channel of grace. It can end in us.


More later. I have heard your obvuscations on James 2:24 before. There are flaws to say the least.

Blessings

 

[Dave...]

And I agree with what He said. I just don't agree with your version of it.


Works don't save, they evidence that which does save. You can try to work your way if you like, thess, I promise you, you'll fall short.

One more time.

Romans 10:3-4 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Jesus said that we can tell a tree by it's fruit. He did not say the fruit makes the tree.

Dave

 

[Cure of Ars]

Yes I have read it and I don't believe that James was talking about justification in God's eyes. I believe he was talking about justification in the eyes of MEN. Either that or Paul and James were contradicting each other...but I dont' think they were. They were talking about two totally different things.

You are setting up a false dilemma. There is a third option, which is a false interpretation of Paul. Scripture itself attests that in Paul’s letters “there are some things hard to understand†(2 Peter 2:16). There is no contradiction between James and Paul. I think we can both agree to this. Lets look at the context of the passage to see if there is any justification that “justification†is only being used in this passage in regards to the eyes of “MENâ€Â.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God." See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:21-24)

The passage is being connected to the story of Abraham when he offered his son as a sacrifice. The problem with this justification being in the eyes of “MEN†is that there was no one really to see except Isaac (Gen 22:4-5). If it was to be justified before "MEN" then Abraham should have brought all the "MEN" he could. And if you look at what happens when God stops Abraham it is clear that it is God who has justified Abraham by his works through faith not Issac or any other “MENâ€Â.

But the LORD'S messenger called to him from heaven, "Abraham, Abraham!" "Yes, Lord," he answered. "Do not lay your hand on the boy," said the messenger. "Do not do the least thing to him. I know now how devoted you are to God, since you did not withhold from me your own beloved son. " (Gen 22:12)

So if you look at the context your interpretation does not hold up.

Also God DOES say that our works are as filthy rags. We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. Not by our own works.

I don't know how our works are filthy rags unless they are works apart from grace. If they are produced in and through God's grace then they have to be holy. I agree 100% that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. But we must have works to stay in the family.

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." (Rom. 4 v 5 – 8 )

In the context of this passage it is talking about two types of systems. One saves the other one does not. One system is the system of the slave that tries to work towards heaven and make God a debtor. The other system sees salvation as an inheritance from God the Father and the work by grace given by the Father does not earn the inheritance but only keeps one in the family to be able to receive the inheritance. This is clearly seen in the sentence preceding the one you quoted.

A worker's wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due. But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. (Rom 4:4)

You are right that there is no way to work to earn an inheritance. An inheritance is a gift but one must work to remain in the family. There are no freeloaders in the family of God.

In context, chapter 4 is preceded by what Paul said in Chapter 2;

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God. (Romans 2:5-8)

And a little later Paul says;

All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather,those who observe the law will be justified. (Romans 2:13)

This is clearly saying that works are a part of salvation although it never says that salvation can be earned. But latter Paul says something that makes it look like he is contradicting himself which you have alread quoted.

For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (Romans 3:28)

Paul and the Holy Spirit are not confused. Paul is talking about two different systems. On system is the system of the slave that tries to obligate God to give him salvation by his good works. These works Paul calls “works of the law†but these works cannot save because it is impossible to make God a debtor to a slave.

The other system is the system of grace through faith in Christ. Through faith in Christ we enter into the family of God and gain the inheritance of salvation. But by grace "faith working through love" (Gal 5:6) is needed to remain in the family.

Circumcision is on of the “works of the law†that Paul is saying cannot justify. What Paul says in the rest of the bible clearly shows that works do matter and are important when done with Christ’s grace.

Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing; what matters is keeping God's commandments. (1 Cor 7:19)

For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. (Gal 5:6)

For neither does circumcision mean anything, nor does uncircumcision, but only a new creation.(Gal 6:15)

It good to talk with ya. God bless

 

[Merry Menagerie]

The passage is being connected to the story of Abraham when he offered his son as a sacrifice. The problem with this justification being in the eyes of “MEN†is that there was no one really to see except Isaac (Gen 22:4-5). If it was to be justified before "MEN" then Abraham should have brought all the "MEN" he could. And if you look at what happens when God stops Abraham it is clear that it is God who has justified Abraham by his works through faith not Issac or any other “MENâ€Â.

And yet the story was able to be told by James. James wasn't there! Was he? Obviously he was inspired to tell the story so that people can see that Abraham had faith. God already knew that Abraham had faith so the works weren't really for him where they? A God who knows all and sees all? Who were they for? And note that the works of Abraham came from God himself...that would mean then that God was trying to justify himself to himself?

I don't know how our works are filthy rags unless they are works apart from grace. If they are produced in and through God's grace then they have to be holy. I agree 100% that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. But we must have works to stay in the family.

They are only Holy if performed by God THROUGH us...otherwise they are filthy rags. The bible does not say we must have works...there is only ONE work and that is 'belief' the rest come from God himself.

Philippians 1:6. being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

In the context of this passage it is talking about two types of systems. One saves the other one does not. One system is the system of the slave that tries to work towards heaven and make God a debtor. The other system sees salvation as an inheritance from God the Father and the work by grace given by the Father does not earn the inheritance but only keeps one in the family to be able to receive the inheritance. This is clearly seen in the sentence preceding the one you quoted.

Therefore it's the grace of the FATHER that keeps us...not us! You've just proven my point.

You are right that there is no way to work to earn an inheritance. An inheritance is a gift but one must work to remain in the family. There are no freeloaders in the family of God.

Wrong! Our works is as filthy rags. God's work IN us is what keeps us.

"Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling, and present you faultless before the presence of his glory in exceeding joy".

The desire to do good comes from God. The goodness comes from God. The good works come from God. Our ability to perserve ourselves come from God...our desire to be preserve ourselves comes from God.

So if it's all in God's power what makes you think that your power exceeds God's power? Isn't that arrogance, self-righteousness, self-glorifying and boastful? The Holy Spirit will always glorify christ. The fact that I am a christian, the fact that I obey, the fact that I sin but then I repent is because of the Spirit of Christ within me making me a NEW CREATION. And as a new creation IN CHRIST, my old earthly desires have gone and has been replaced by new desires by God.

To say that I 'remain' saved by my own power, is not only arrogant on my part, but it's also a blatant lie!

 

[Klee shay]

It's about God working in us and through us bringing us to the promised land.

Yes, exactly, God working.

You do not believe the works God brings about in us by his grace have any power with regard to our salvation? Why does he say in Romans 2:4-8:

4: Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
5: But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
6: For he will render to every man according to his works:
7: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8: but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

The last verse has more to do with what I'm talking about. Those who are factious and do not obey the truth but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Facitious - artificial or false. (Heinemann Dictionary)

Reading all the prior versus to verse 8 is naming the truth - those who do good will receive eternal life. Why would a person who does genuine good, need to worry about verse 8? They don't. They aren't doing good for self-seeking purposes therefore verse 8 is a none event for them. They do good for the sake of doing good.

A person who is false however (even in doing good) does worry about verse 8 however, and constantly has to draw everyone else's attention to that verse because it is their Holy Spirit struggling to warn of their folly.

To the one who has no works, he sends him to wrath and fury.

I say that being a facitious "good" person is even obeying wickedness. Facitious works will bring wrath and fury as well.

Once again it is God working in us to bring about these things by his grace. He gives us the grace to do them. But there is much power in these works that we do in Christ and they MUST EFFECT our salvation or Matt 25 is nonsense.

The grace is the Lord's and always will be. That grace is used to cover our poor works and make His new works. The strength we use to do these things for God are obtained purely by Christ's strength on the cross as well. How can we say that anything we do as Christians is not the Lord's work?

Being humble means to lower yourself. Christ did it for us on the cross, so why don't we do it for Christ's works in our lives today? I am not worthy to do them but Christ is.

You are making a mockery of Matt 25 and the grace God gives man to do good works. Does he not say we will produce "thirty, sixty, or 100 fold". You cannot say this is the work that Adam was cursed with when we do the work that God gives us the grace to do. I better posts Matt 25 as I am not sure you have ever read it the way you are talking.

Your coat of pride and judgement is showing. Where is your grace now in representing our Lord?

I have read Matthew 25 and find it quite liberating to read. I do not see it as another weight to carry on my shoulders. This yoke of salvation is the Lord's to carry. Matthew 25 is for those who do not give at all. This verse is for those who would build their own castles and worship themselves, rather than build their eternity in the kingdom of God.

Do you know the works that I do? Nor do I, for it is Christ who works. I have a chronic illness which was deteriorating lately, and my mother told me the way I still cling to God and still talk about him to others despite my failing health; is tesitmony of God's strength and love. I had no idea that my difficult struggle was influencing those around me...but Christ did and he worked.

37: Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
38: And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
39: And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'

When did I do anything righteous? In my sickeness did I speak of the Lord...is that righteous? Or was it the Lord using his strength to do the work for his righteousness.

I make no mockery of the Lord...yes we work, but the works are not ours.

Works in faith bring glory to God. That is what you miss. Redeemed works.

We are in agreement. However, the works are not ours. I do not miss anything the Lord shows me. His hand makes the redeemed works and my hands are to testify and praise him.

Ya better be about doing what he gives you the grace to do. It is made clean by his grace. It will produce thirty, sixty, or 100 fold. If you don't do these things you will be where there is "wailing and nashing of teeth". GOD IS NOT PLEASED WITH A SLOTHFUL SERVANT.

I cannot please God my friend. Only Christ can do that. I do what Christ inspires me to do while trying to avoid facitious intentions in my heart.

26: But his master answered him, `You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed?

Praise the Lord. I am not worried by this scripture for it has no bearing on my efforts at all. The Lord has taken me under his wing and shows me how to serve him on a daily basis. For a newer Christain perhaps they would be intimidated and see this scripture as a harsh judgement. Christ is all giving and all forgiving though and that is how he frees the oppressed.

The least of all his brethren need to hear that Christ is good - not that in falling by the wayside in your earthly struggles you're being a slothful servant. Where is the love in this debate? Where is Christ?

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Lost

AV,
1. Got a question for ya. Are you an infallible interpruter of scripture such that you know with 100 percent certainty that all doctrines that you hold true are? A yes or a no will be fine. Thanks.

No - your question is rediculous and shows shallow reasoning on your part.

By the way glad God is my judge. Your infinitely underqualified for the job if you don't mind me saying so.

Don't mind a bit - You tell me that God is the judge and then you turn right around an judge me - You know nothing about how much I know or what I believe. I've read your posts - have you read my posts? Before you stand in judgement of how much I know or don't know you might want to find out what I know or what I don't know.

 

[thessalonian]

Re: Lost

AV,
1. Got a question for ya. Are you an infallible interpruter of scripture such that you know with 100 percent certainty that all doctrines that you hold true are? A yes or a no will be fine. Thanks.

No - your question is rediculous and shows shallow reasoning on your part.

Thanks for the straight up answer. So you are not 100 % sure that the doctrines you hold are true and you must admit you may have interpreted wrong and it may actually be false that OSAS is true. Let's say there is a 90% chance you are right. Now by simple mathamatical statistics and logic one cannot be 100% sure of his salvatoin if he is not 100% infallibly sure that his Biblical exegesis that tells him OSAS is true is correct. It's just not possible. The doctrne is therefore in the case of OSAS false. You can't be 100% sure, only IF your interpretation is correct. You must be 100 %percent sure of all of your interpretations or you cannot say you are 100% sure of this one but not all the rest. And if you are not 100% sure on this one you are not 100% sure your assured of your salvation. So your not assured. Get it.


[quote:d6b50][quote:d6b50]By the way glad God is my judge. Your infinitely underqualified for the job if you don't mind me saying so.[/quote

Don't mind a bit - You tell me that God is the judge and then you turn right around an judge me - You know nothing about how much I know or what I believe. I've read your posts - have you read my posts? Before you stand in judgement of how much I know or don't know you might want to find out what I know or what I don't know.

:o :o [/quote:d6b50][/quote:d6b50]

It bothers you that I judge you not equal with God and unable to do an adequate job of judging? I'm not either if it makes you feel any better but it doesn't bother me in the slightest. By the way I do judge falsity of doctrine but not the eternal destiny of souls. Stick around. I am enjoying debating you.

Blessings

 

[Cure of Ars]

And yet the story was able to be told by James. James wasn't there! Was he? Obviously he was inspired to tell the story so that people can see that Abraham had faith. God already knew that Abraham had faith so the works weren't really for him where they? A God who knows all and sees all? Who were they for? And note that the works of Abraham came from God himself...that would mean then that God was trying to justify himself to himself?

Nothing you just said came from the context of the passage but your man made tradition trying to make it all fit together. You are putting things in there that isn’t in the Bible. God can read hearts and he knows the future but he looks at our works to see if we walk the walk. That is what the text says anyway. Please read it again.

But the LORD'S messenger called to him from heaven, "Abraham, Abraham!" "Yes, Lord," he answered. "Do not lay your hand on the boy," said the messenger. "Do not do the least thing to him. I know now how devoted you are to God, since you did not withhold from me your own beloved son. " (Gen 22:12)

They are only Holy if performed by God THROUGH us...otherwise they are filthy rags.

As a Christian what works do you do that are not preformed by God THROUGH us?

The bible does not say we must have works...there is only ONE work and that is 'belief' the rest come from God himself.

So do you believe in works salvation because belief is a work? Is not belief a gift from God?

Philippians 1:6. being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

There is a difference between being confident and having a 100% guarantee that you will make it. Especially when Paul says this in the next chapter, “…work out your salvation in fear and trembling.†(Phil 2:12) What you are saying leaves no room for fear and trembling, not to mention the theological virtue of hope.

Therefore it's the grace of the FATHER that keeps us...not us! You've just proven my point.

We don’t disagree on this. I still don’t think you fully grasp the Catholic position.

Wrong! Our works is as filthy rags. God's work IN us is what keeps us.

I never said that is was work apart from God’s work. Remember we are God’s “coworkersâ€Â. Where does it say Christian works are filthy rags after being washed through the bath of rebirth?

The desire to do good comes from God. The goodness comes from God. The good works come from God. Our ability to perserve ourselves come from God...our desire to be preserve ourselves comes from God.

I agree with this 100%.

So if it's all in God's power what makes you think that your power exceeds God's power?

You are putting words in my mouth. We are saved and able to do good works only by the Grace of God.

Isn't that arrogance, self-righteousness, self-glorifying and boastful?

Yes it would be but this is a straw man argument and not what I believe.

The Holy Spirit will always glorify christ. The fact that I am a christian, the fact that I obey, the fact that I sin but then I repent is because of the Spirit of Christ within me making me a NEW CREATION. And as a new creation IN CHRIST, my old earthly desires have gone and has been replaced by new desires by God.

I agree with you on this.

To say that I 'remain' saved by my own power, is not only arrogant on my part, but it's also a blatant lie!

Please try to understand my position. Don’t depend on what you think I believe but what I say I believe with the arguments and scripture passages I use. You didn’t address the passages I used that clearly state that works through grace are involved with salvation.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Nothing you just said came from the context of the passage but your man made tradition trying to make it all fit together. You are putting things in there that isn’t in the Bible. God can read hearts and he knows the future but he looks at our works to see if we walk the walk. That is what the text says anyway. Please read it again.

What "man-made tradition"? So what you're really saying is that God justifies himself to himself by the work HE does in people? Strange!

As a Christian what works do you do that are not preformed by God THROUGH us?

My own way? My own logical things that I think make me Holy God then let's me know in no uncertain terms that my own works are dead without his works. My works fail - his never does.

So do you believe in works salvation because belief is a work? Is not belief a gift from God?

Yep!

There is a difference between being confident and having a 100% guarantee that you will make it. Especially when Paul says this in the next chapter, “…work out your salvation in fear and trembling.†(Phil 2:12) What you are saying leaves no room for fear and trembling, not to mention the theological virtue of hope.

Only those who do not have faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross need to worry about their salvation. I am 100% certain and confident that I will make it. Because it's God's work in me that will persevere and he is infallable. I always feel sad for those who doubt the Lord's power and therefore their salvation. I used to be just like that once and it almost killed me.

We don’t disagree on this. I still don’t think you fully grasp the Catholic position.

What's this got to do with Catholic? Why do you always insist on bringing up Catholicism? I couldn't care less what the catholic position. I'm not trying to understand or grasp anyone else' position but God's.

ver said that is was work apart from God’s work. Remember we are God’s “coworkersâ€Â. Where does it say Christian works are filthy rags after being washed through the bath of rebirth?

If they are your own works and not the works of God then they are filthy rags. I'm surprised you don't know the difference :o And yes I believe you have said that it was work apart from God's work. You want to give yourself the credit and the glory and be justified by works that are not don't by you but are done by God. I do not! I wish to give God the glory for everything in me that is good.

Quote:
The desire to do good comes from God. The goodness comes from God. The good works come from God. Our ability to perserve ourselves come from God...our desire to be preserve ourselves comes from God.


I agree with this 100%.

Then why do you think...if God does all these things in us do you think we can lose our salvation like it is a bunch of keys? I don't believe that you agree with that statement at all. I know you say you do...but I don't believe it...I'm sorry.

You are putting words in my mouth. We are saved and able to do good works only by the Grace of God.

And yet you think that God's power and grace are so weak that He is unable to keep us until the end. And that saddens me.

Quote:
Isn't that arrogance, self-righteousness, self-glorifying and boastful?


Yes it would be but this is a straw man argument and not what I believe.

I'm sorry but I do believe that's what you believe. I don't even think you realise it. I didn't either when I believed as you did. It took God a long time to prove HIS power to me. I pray for your enlightenment.

Quote:
The Holy Spirit will always glorify christ. The fact that I am a christian, the fact that I obey, the fact that I sin but then I repent is because of the Spirit of Christ within me making me a NEW CREATION. And as a new creation IN CHRIST, my old earthly desires have gone and has been replaced by new desires by God.


I agree with you on this.

And you think that I can overide my new creation in Christ and make myself lose salvation that god put there and that God preserves in me...thus making me more powerful than God.

Quote:
To say that I 'remain' saved by my own power, is not only arrogant on my part, but it's also a blatant lie!



Please try to understand my position. Don’t depend on what you think I believe but what I say I believe with the arguments and scripture passages I use. You didn’t address the passages I used that clearly state that works through grace are involved with salvation

Yes I did...they are GOD'S WORKS!!! And yet you seem to not understand what that means. I know what you believe...don't think that I don't because I used to believe them. I used to try and 'work' my way to heaven too. I used to try my hardest to do 'good works' and guess what? I succeeded too...I showed all the works...showed them all!!! But because they were not God's works...they were fake and my faith was dead. It took me to give up on my own efforts and fully rely on Christ's efforts to find out what Grace is all about. And it set me free.

And now I have complete assurance in my salvation because it's not preserved by my feeble efforts...and you have no idea how much better that feels!

So believe what you want to believe. I know I did...I didn't want to believe like I do now...I fought it till the end, but one day I stopped fighting it and just allowed God to work...and it saved my life

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Lost

Stick around. I am enjoying debating you.

Blessings

Nope - don't think so - there is an ole' saying:

"If you go in to fight with a skunk then you will come out smelling like one."

I've had enough of worthless, endless debatings. :roll:

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe

 

[Heidi]

Hi Av,

I'll probably regret jumping into debating false teachings but will give it one more try in case 1 or 2 are being called by God. Again, it is impossible to lose our salvation because Jesus saved us through his death which can never be taken back. To say we can lose it is saying that we save ourselves which is impossible. Our salvation has nothing to do with anything we've done. Jesus said; "I didn't come from the righteous but the sinners." Human nature trying to fix human nature is the blind leading the blind. Once we are born again, our lives are lived simply to complete the work that God prepared for us in advance to do. (Eph. 2:10). That is what the bible means by "working out our salvation." It does not mean that we can save ourselves which is not only the epitome of arrogance and pride, but a falsehood as well.

 

[Solo]

Hi Av,

I'll probably regret jumping into debating false teachings but will give it one more try in case 1 or 2 are being called by God. Again, it is impossible to lose our salvation because Jesus saved us through his death which can never be taken back. To say we can lose it is saying that we save ourselves which is impossible. Our salvation has nothing to do with anything we've done. Jesus said; "I didn't come from the righteous but the sinners." Human nature trying to fix human nature is the blind leading the blind. Once we are born again, our lives are lived simply to complete the work that God prepared for us in advance to do. (Eph. 2:10). That is what the bible means by "working out our salvation." It does not mean that we can save ourselves which is not only the epitome of arrogance and pride, but a falsehood as well.

Hi Heidi,
Nice post.
Where people miss the boat is that they don't understand the new creature that exists in the corrupt and mortal old creature. The new creature does not sin, while the old creature does. Unless a person has residency of the new creature which was born of the Spirit, they will not have an eternal existance with God; instead they will be cast into outer darkness where they have chosen to live.

When one walks in the Spirit one does not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. When one walks in the flesh one walks in death.
Paul explains the war within believers very well, but only those that are taught by the Holy Spirit will understand.

Keep up the good work.