OSAS The Truth

[gr8grace3]

And this: Hebrews 12:1-5 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that world of encouragement that addresses you as sons:

It will be those of us who endure, just as Christ endured.........we will be his.

Just as Christ endured?
So you are going to be scourged with whips and have your flesh ripped open to the bone,beaten to an unrecognizable state, have a crown of thorns pushed into your scalp, spit upon,Have your beard plucked out, nailed naked to a cross,be forsaken by the Father, pay for the sins of the world, die and have a spear thrust in your side?

 

[gr8grace3]

And this: Hebrews 12:1-5 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that world of encouragement that addresses you as sons:

It will be those of us who endure, just as Christ endured.........we will be his.

There is a part you have forgotten in these verses.
New American Standard Bible
and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;

Your being encouraged to run the race(which means we have not endured yet) as a son. You are already a child of God, before you "endure"

 

[LovethroughDove]

Just as Christ endured?
So you are going to be scourged with whips and have your flesh ripped open to the bone,beaten to an unrecognizable state, have a crown of thorns pushed into your scalp, spit upon,Have your beard plucked out, nailed to a cross,be forsaken by the Father, pay for the sins of the world, die and have a spear thrust in your side?

If that would be the case for me.

Matthew 16:24-27 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

These words are from the mouth of Christ...............

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, have you ever read John Wesley? Just curious.

There was a huge Calvinist preacher that just resigned from his mega church, now he will be heading up a WOF church. He did sin, he was caught in sin and refuses to apologize, instead he left without reconciliation. Maybe you know who I am speaking of.

I have seriously wondered - I can not express how much this entire experience has crushed me as I actually attended that church (although I am not a Calvinist nor do I hold onto OSAS), I thought he was a good teacher, regardless of his doctrine difference. I have seriously wondered, however, if he was not a Calvinist if he would have done what he did? He believes he is of the elect supposedly, there is no way he could lose his salvation. So my thinking is, he doesn't see a need to apologize or reconcile with anyone.

I would like to see what you have to say about this, I am seriously asking, too. My intention is not to argue with you, I just want to know what you think about all of it.

Thanks.

Oh Jesse, I'm grieved over this poor example of Christianity. I understand fully what you are saying and that is a very big problem in trying to understand the lifestyle of the "elect." First of all, if a man expresses his position as part of the elect that was called before the foundation of the world, he probably is not! That IMO is a huge boast and desire to sin and still be counted as elect.

Jesse, that is not how it works!!!! None of us know who the elect are. God, I believe does not want us to know for the very reason you give for this preacher. I can tell you for sure that the Holy Spirit closely monitors the elect. You see, the elect of God is a small remnant of followers of Jesus' Commands. God has placed each member of His elect in His choice of time (date) geographical location so that they can demonstrate to the lost world how to live godly. When God said, "let Us make man in Our Image", the elect are called forth to do exactly that. The elect, by the design of God are to go forth into the sphere of influence that God has placed them into and be His Ambassadors. In other words, the elect is supposed to resemble how God would have His blessed children live on this earth, while waiting for Jesus to return.

The fact that you don't believe in OSAS does not bother me in the least. After seeing how a person who claims to be of the elect, lives his life, I see why! Who knows what else was going on in the background of his days. So my friend, please don't judge the elect by this man's sinful lifestyle. The elect, to the best of their ability, try and live a holy life. AND, if they slip up and sin, the Holy Spirit of Whom I call the "Hound of Heaven" hunts them down and makes sure that it doesn't become habitual....I consider you to be a special friend of mine because I love you in the Lord. Please don't hesitate to ask questions. Even an argument within Brothers will turn out for good.

 

[smaller]

What is over-extension? And what are you defining as the messenger of Satan?

Grace/salvation/mercy/forgiveness- NONE of that applied to the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.

A messenger of Satan is a messenger of Satan.

This does not make any sense whatsoever. What is the lump of Paul?

Read Romans 9:19-21 for an example, as prior noted.

We are not responsible for the sin of 3rd parties unless we contributed to or fostered their sin.

What does it mean when you say "that are overlapped upon us"?

Satan and his messengers have access to mankind, primarily internal and primarily in the form of temptations. I might hope this isn't news to a christian.

As for responsibilities, it is unlikely the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh would be responsible for anything but sinning.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what I posted to you:
"The facts are not on your side.

Here are the facts.

1. God gives eternal life. 1 Jn 5:11
2. Jesus gives eternal life Jn 10:28
3. Paul describes eternal life as a gift Rom 6:23
4. God's gifts are irrevocable Rom 11:29"

And this is your reply:

11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:11-13


If you continue to believe...

Unfortunately this passage does NOT help your viewpoint. At all. The phrase bolded, "and that you may continue to believe" isn't linked in any way to continuing to have eternal life. It is simply the hope of John, which should be the hope of all believers; that all believers will continue to believe.

Once again, you have failed to provide any support for the notion that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

In fact, the facts are against your view. As I've shown from Scripture, and all you do is to kick against the goads.

Those who endure to the end will be saved.

Some of us here are actually interested in context. Please check the context for that verse, and you will see it is in reference to those going through the Tribulation. It has NOTHING to do with believers in general, nor how to be saved.

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:16-18

Another passage that does NOT support your viewpoint. The death here is physical death, not eternal death.

Scripture gives us examples of who has died the "sin unto death". 1 Cor 5 is about the incestuous man who Paul "handed over" for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit would be saved. That refutes your viewpoint because Paul noted that he would be saved.

Acts 5 is about a husband and wife who lied to the Holy Spirit and physically died for it. The sin unto death. Not about loss of salvation.

Paul noted WHY "many of you are sickly and weak, and a number sleep" (euphemism for physical death) in 1 Cor 11:30; for abusing the Lord's Table. Not about loss of salvation.

We must learn to keep ourselves from sin, and pray for those who are caught up in sin, that they may be forgiven.

Yes, we should. All the time. But none of these verses teach that a believer an lose their salvation. The facts are against your viewpoint.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is for fellowship, which is the subject of 1 Jn 1. Not for maintenance of salvation.

God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

That is irrefutable.

The verses you keep sharing cannot mean what you think they mean because of this fact. If they did, God's Word is internally contradicted. Are you ok with that?

 

[gr8grace3]

If that would be the case for me.

Use the words from the mouth of Christ for this answer: Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matthew 16:24-27 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

These words are from the mouth of Christ...............

If this is salvation and not for becoming a disciple for Christ, then there is a contradiction in these verses......Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

We can give absolutely nothing in exchange for our souls,nothing. That includes our life,our denying of self,taking up our own cross,following Him in exchange for our souls.

We can do all these things to be a disciple though.

We believe on Christ and His work alone on the Cross for our salvation. And Christ alone saves us, none of our works.

 

[smaller]

Just as Christ endured?
So you are going to be scourged with whips and have your flesh ripped open to the bone,beaten to an unrecognizable state, have a crown of thorns pushed into your scalp, spit upon,Have your beard plucked out, nailed naked to a cross,be forsaken by the Father, pay for the sins of the world, die and have a spear thrust in your side?

He paid a price we could not pay.

 

[gr8grace3]

He paid a price we could not pay.

It is frustrating, Christ gets lost when we believe we can lose salvation. Everything He did for us and All His power/grace/gifts/mercy and so much more, are lost. Most of all, His Grace,which we are to reveal, gets lost.

He was forsaken by His Father, He had the sins of the WHOLE world laid on Him......we can't even imagine the horror and love of that. Being perfect and sinless, He was forsaken by His Father. Unimaginable to us. He was perfect and sinless and had to touch sin. Unimaginable to us.

And if we have believed at some point, His Grace will let us sit here on our puny butts and be proud that we quit cussing and kinda cleaned up our lives for our salvation and He still save us.

 

[smaller]

Grace did not come with a bill attached, as if we are able to pay it back. What foolishness.

 

[LovethroughDove]

1 John 5:2-5 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: To obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

It is not that I don't believe the OSAS aspect. But, we do.........do "something" to show we are Born of the Spirit. We have to LOVE God and CARRY out his commands.

 

[gr8grace3]

1 John 5:2-5 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: To obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

It is not that I don't believe the OSAS aspect. But, we do.........do "something" to show we are Born of the Spirit. We have to LOVE God and CARRY out his commands.

Technically, these verses are not about "showing" anyone anything. These verses are about our own personal walk, and discerning how we are operating in His plan for our own lives. Specifically, our own impersonal,unconditional love for the other children of God.

The doing and acting for God is the Christian(already saved and that aspect is finished) way of life. His commands are the specific plans He has for the particular believer, they are not necessarily the "ten commandments." They may be praying(our personal love for God) at meal time in public and that witnessed to someone you didn't even know about.

But these verses speak of our personal love for God motivating our impersonal, unconditional love for other believers. And that is a work in progress. But in the latter part of the verses, our victory in salvation is complete.

 

[Gregg]

1 John 5:2-5 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: To obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

It is not that I don't believe the OSAS aspect. But, we do.........do "something" to show we are Born of the Spirit. We have to LOVE God and CARRY out his commands.

Even love comes with the help of the Lord. "But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, . ." (Gal 5:22). And its not that 'we have to LOVE' but rather "Against such things there is not a law" (Gal 5:23). We are now free to love without any restriction or encumbrance, free to learn to love; and as His disciple and through the experience of walking in Him, then we can love, and own it [possess it as ours] as a work that God has brought about in us.

Our not being able to love or be obedient in and of ourselves does not nullify His command for us to love and to be obedient; its just that we are not able to love without His help, and we are not able to be obedient without His help.

The same holds true for salvation. We are totally dependent upon God for our salvation: past, present, and future. We are not able to save ourselves, to keep ourselves saved, or to count on our own ability to complete our redemption.

- - -

The professing believer who takes credit for the nature or duration of his salvation . . . disregards God and His grace; and is his own sovereign.

 

[LovethroughDove]

1 John 2:3-6 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him", but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.


I remember Jesus mentioning something about people who say they know him and he tells them "I never knew you".

So there are conditions.

 

[gr8grace3]

1 John 2:3-6 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him", but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.


I remember Jesus mentioning something about people who say they know him and he tells them "I never knew you".

So there are conditions.

If there are conditions for the salvation of your soul........

Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

"I never knew you" are the professing believers that relied on feeding the poor in Jesus name for their salvation. Relied on Going to church for their salvation. Relied on doing missions for Jesus. Relied on saying Jesus. Relied on their human good works for Jesus. And never believed on The Lord Jesus Christ alone and His work alone on the Cross for their salvation.

Your verses point to the fact that there will be positive believers and negative believers. Some believers will study and obey and grow in Grace and knowledge. Some will forever stay on the milk.
1 Cor 3:2~~I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,

 

[LovethroughDove]

If there are conditions for the salvation of your soul........
Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

It is not something we give, but who we are. If you don't like the conditions of MUST

1 John 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Then you are not a part of him.

And, I do believe that he is talking to people who relied on their works.............BUT also those who don't understand the point of the cross.

To be as Christ...........

 

[Gregg]

It is not something we give, but who we are. If you don't like the conditions of MUST

1 John 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Then you are not a part of him.

And, I do believe that he is talking to people who relied on their works.............BUT also those who don't understand the point of the cross.

To be as Christ...........

I believe the Scriptures make a case for OSAS. But as one who holds to this doctrine - I do not believe for a minute that I have a pass to sin because of grace; nor do I believe to the slightest degree that I should not strive with all my being to be the utmost for my Savior. I am commanded with the LORD's imperative to love Him, to be obedient to Him, to exercise any given gifts, to invest the talents given, to walk with Him - but I am not alone in any of these things, nor do I accomplish these things with my strength alone. He will establish, and in Him is strength.

Now I am free, rather captive to my Captor, and equipped to obey the LORD.

 

[FreeGrace]

It is frustrating, Christ gets lost when we believe we can lose salvation. Everything He did for us and All His power/grace/gifts/mercy and so much more, are lost. Most of all, His Grace,which we are to reveal, gets lost.

I think the problem stems from the erroneous thinking that God requires man to "keep doing" something, that is, to keep believing. While they don't understand this, this view keeps putting man in the spotlight, for his continuous action in order to stay saved. How sad.

And, consider John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” NASB

The word for "drinks" is aorist subjunctive. No concern or thought of duration. But to the nonOSAS camp, they insist one must continue to believe to be saved. And Jesus said the one who drinks in a point in time "will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life".

From a single act of "drinking", analagous to faith, one receives eternal life.

Which, as a gift from God, is irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

1 John 2:3-6 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him", but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.


I remember Jesus mentioning something about people who say they know him and he tells them "I never knew you".

So there are conditions.

In Matt 7:21-23, the point was that they were basing getting into the kingdom based on their works. And Jesus called that evil. Grace and works are mutually exclusive.

When one holds up works for salvation, they have eliminated grace completely.

 

[gr8grace3]

It is not something we give, but who we are. If you don't like the conditions of MUST

1 John 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Then you are not a part of him.

And, I do believe that he is talking to people who relied on their works.............BUT also those who don't understand the point of the cross.

To be as Christ...........

John is all about fellowship and spiritual Growth. And not about eternal life being extinguished for the dear children he is trying to encourage.

What you seem to be implying is that 1 John 2:6 should read like this:

1 John 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did........ or dear children, your loving Savior is going to take His eternal life from you and you will rot in the pits of Hell.

When the context of John is Spiritual growth/fellowship and gaining/growing personal love for God. and this verse specifically points back to the negative, moral degenerate, religious believer in verse 4, the one that maintains he is spiritual, but is far from it They think they are walking like Him and maintain(say) they are walking like Him . Moral to a fault, They maintain that they have the spiritual life figured out and by George, everyone else better do as I say.Morality is the result of the Spiritual life, not the means to it. So 1 John 2:6 is a subtle rebuke for these negative Christians that "say" they maintain, but the positive believers are doing it.



1 John 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did........or you will not grow spiritually/maintain fellowship/grow in love for God.