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OSAS The Truth

FreeGrace said:
In Matt 7:21-23, the point was that they were basing getting into the kingdom based on their works. And Jesus called that evil. Grace and works are mutually exclusive.

When one holds up works for salvation, they have eliminated grace completely.
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You have to "do" the will of the Father. Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

We have to do something and you can only do that through the grace of God.

You seem to think that grace doesn't have works accompanied with it? Am I wrong in thinking this?
 
LovethroughDove said:
You have to "do" the will of the Father. Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

We have to do something and you can only do that through the grace of God.

You seem to think that grace doesn't have works accompanied with it? Am I wrong in thinking this?
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John 6:40~~New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
 
FreeGrace said:
I think the problem stems from the erroneous thinking that God requires man to "keep doing" something, that is, to keep believing. While they don't understand this, this view keeps putting man in the spotlight, for his continuous action in order to stay saved. How sad.

And, consider John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” NASB

The word for "drinks" is aorist subjunctive. No concern or thought of duration. But to the nonOSAS camp, they insist one must continue to believe to be saved. And Jesus said the one who drinks in a point in time "will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life".

From a single act of "drinking", analagous to faith, one receives eternal life.

Which, as a gift from God, is irrevocable.
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I agree. Its creature credit,rather than Creator credit.

I never have looked at John 4:14 and the aorist tense of drinks. Thanks for that.
 
Chopper said:
Oh Jesse, I'm grieved over this poor example of Christianity. I understand fully what you are saying and that is a very big problem in trying to understand the lifestyle of the "elect." First of all, if a man expresses his position as part of the elect that was called before the foundation of the world, he probably is not! That IMO is a huge boast and desire to sin and still be counted as elect.

Jesse, that is not how it works!!!! None of us know who the elect are. God, I believe does not want us to know for the very reason you give for this preacher. I can tell you for sure that the Holy Spirit closely monitors the elect. You see, the elect of God is a small remnant of followers of Jesus' Commands. God has placed each member of His elect in His choice of time (date) geographical location so that they can demonstrate to the lost world how to live godly. When God said, "let Us make man in Our Image", the elect are called forth to do exactly that. The elect, by the design of God are to go forth into the sphere of influence that God has placed them into and be His Ambassadors. In other words, the elect is supposed to resemble how God would have His blessed children live on this earth, while waiting for Jesus to return.

The fact that you don't believe in OSAS does not bother me in the least. After seeing how a person who claims to be of the elect, lives his life, I see why! Who knows what else was going on in the background of his days. So my friend, please don't judge the elect by this man's sinful lifestyle. The elect, to the best of their ability, try and live a holy life. AND, if they slip up and sin, the Holy Spirit of Whom I call the "Hound of Heaven" hunts them down and makes sure that it doesn't become habitual....I consider you to be a special friend of mine because I love you in the Lord. Please don't hesitate to ask questions. Even an argument within Brothers will turn out for good. :hug
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Thanks for your answer Chopper. I understand what you teach, and no, I don't agree because I see all the saved as the elect, and I believe this is the remnant, the road is narrow and few will find it.

I could be mistaken but I don't think he believes as you, which doesn't really make a difference, however, unless I am mistaken, doesn't a 5 point Calvinist believe the saved are the elect? There are not 2 groups? Is this correct?

How do you deal with the children who die and are not of the elect?

Also, how do you deal with the scripture that says God does not show partiality, He has no favorites?

Thanks.
 
gr8grace3 said:
John 6:40~~New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
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How about those who believe in Him, then stop believing in Him and turn away from Him.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

No faith - no substance of the thing hoped for [salvation].



JLB
 
gr8grace3 said:
Yes, you have. You do not believe in eternal security. And you are counting on your "doing." That is the point I get from you.
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....and the biggest error mainstream Christianity has made is that they have placed "obedience" in the same category with "works". Obedience and works are not the same thing.

Are we to be as Christ? YES! Then we obey!
 
If you're stuck in a hole, God holds his hand out, you must take his hand in order to get out of the hole.

His hand is grace, it enables us to be as Christ, Christ did not walk around doing nothing because He loved the Father, He walked around DOING because He loved the Father.

Be as Christ!!

 
Jesse said:
....and the biggest error mainstream Christianity has made is that they have placed "obedience" in the same category with "works". Obedience and works are not the same thing.

Are we to be as Christ? YES! Then we obey!
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The biggest and deadliest error that the vast majority of churches and religious Christians have made is not teaching Faith alone in Christ alone for their salvation. Just try to find a church that sticks to that specific, narrow path for salvation.
 
Jesse said:
If you're stuck in a hole, God holds his hand out, you must take his hand in order to get out of the hole.
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No, God has you in His Hand.
The steps of a man are established by the Lord; And He delights in his way. When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong; Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. (Psalms 37:23-24)

Isa 41:13~~"For I am the LORD your God, who upholds your right hand, Who says to you, 'Do not fear, I will help you.'

Do you have scripture to back up your claim?

Jesse said:
His hand is grace, it enables us to be as Christ, Christ did not walk around doing nothing because He loved the Father, He walked around DOING because He loved the Father.
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Did Christ have to walk around "doing" to become Christ or in order to stay Christ? Or was He Christ from His birth?

Jesse said:
Be as Christ!!
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Impossible for an unsaved person.
 
JLB said:
How about those who believe in Him, then stop believing in Him and turn away from Him.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

No faith - no substance of the thing hoped for [salvation].



JLB
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Saved Idiots. Or religious Christians.

They believed in Him alone for their salvation and then went whacko with their own self righteousness.They stopped believing in Him alone and turned away from Him to their own self righteous morality,deeds and works. Their faith alone in Christ alone(hope) has turned into a daily grind of keeping themselves saved.

The overtly sinning believers that went back to the pub were run off by the religious, self righteous Christians.
 
gr8grace3 said:
No, God has you in His Hand.
The steps of a man are established by the Lord; And He delights in his way. When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong; Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. (Psalms 37:23-24)

Isa 41:13~~"For I am the LORD your God, who upholds your right hand, Who says to you, 'Do not fear, I will help you.'

Do you have scripture to back up your claim?


Did Christ have to walk around "doing" to become Christ or in order to stay Christ? Or was He Christ from His birth?


Impossible for an unsaved person.
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This made me laugh out loud.

If you haven't experienced the lifting up by the Lord when you have fallen or are down, then I understand how you would not be able to understand what I wrote. The catch is, to let the Lord pick you up when you are down, the act of turning to Him when you have sinned, or fallen, or depressed, or anxious - it's the ACT of turning towards Him so that His grace can empower us to be lifted up, to persevere.

Do I need scripture? All you need to do is go read your Bible, read about Abraham, Moses, Joseph! Joseph is a perfect example of this! Joseph was thrown into a prison, He turned to God and remained faithful, and for Joseph's faithfulness to the Lord, God lifted him up out of prison and gave Him his work to do.

Christ had to LEARN just like you and I. Jesus had to learn how to walk, just like we do, learn how to talk, just like us and we obey just like He did, because God has empowered us with His Grace (we just need to obey)!

Praise God!!
 
gr8grace3 said:
Saved Idiots. Or religious Christians.

They believed in Him alone for their salvation and then went whacko with their own self righteousness.They stopped believing in Him alone and turned away from Him to their own self righteous morality,deeds and works. Their faith alone in Christ alone(hope) has turned into a daily grind of keeping themselves saved.

The overtly sinning believers that went back to the pub were run off by the religious, self righteous Christians.
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You can chose to mock, or to make up unbiblical scenarios, but what the word says is -


Matthew -
But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

and again -

Luke -
But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


These were persecuted, and turned away, departed or renounced there belief or faith.


In essence they became unbelievers.



JLB
 
Jesse said:
This made me laugh out loud.

If you haven't experienced the lifting up by the Lord when you have fallen or are down, then I understand how you would not be able to understand what I wrote. The catch is, to let the Lord pick you up when you are down, the act of turning to Him when you have sinned, or fallen, or depressed, or anxious - it's the ACT of turning towards Him so that His grace can empower us to be lifted up, to persevere.

Do I need scripture? All you need to do is go read your Bible, read about Abraham, Moses, Joseph! Joseph is a perfect example of this! Joseph was thrown into a prison, He turned to God and remained faithful, and for Joseph's faithfulness to the Lord, God lifted him up out of prison and gave Him his work to do.

Christ had to LEARN just like you and I. Jesus had to learn how to walk, just like we do, learn how to talk, just like us and we obey just like He did, because God has empowered us with His Grace (we just need to obey)!

Praise God!!
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I will let you be.

But someday, my friend,in your walk you will be lifted up by the Lord when you were not making the ACT of turning and were even fighting against it and realize that the Lords grip and Grace is much bigger than your post above.
 
JLB said:
You can chose to mock, or to make up unbiblical scenarios, but what the word says is -


Matthew -
But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

and again -

Luke -
But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


These were persecuted, and turned away, departed or renounced there belief or faith.


In essence they became unbelievers.



JLB
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One stumbles and one falls away.

I would be with you all the way if they said.....

....Immediately he stumbles into the lake of fire forever and ever.

or

.....and in time of temptation fall away into the lake of fire forever and ever.

And I am Not mocking you. I am giving you the scenario that you do not look at. you choose to focus on the overtly wicked believer who has fallen away. I am pointing to the subtle religious believer who has fallen away.

1. If one has believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, one is saved......the belief that saves.

There are 2 types of people who fall away from this belief/faith.

A~~carnal Christians......your focus.

B~~religious Christians.....my focus.

And I contend that the vast majority who stop believing in Christ alone are the religious Christians.
 
gr8grace3 said:
I will let you be.

But someday, my friend,in your walk you will be lifted up by the Lord when you were not making the ACT of turning and were even fighting against it and realize that the Lords grip and Grace is much bigger than your post above.
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God doesn't take your free will away, we're not robots. There has never been an instance when God has offered His grace and the person who he offered it to, did nothing.

Can you please give me the name of someone from the Bible who followed God but did nothing in return? A person's name of who did zero work?

I'll be waiting.............f.o.r.e.v.e.r.
 
Jesse said:
God doesn't take your free will away, we're not robots.
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I completely agree.


Jesse said:
There has never been an instance when God has offered His grace and the person who he offered it to, did nothing.
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I agree, they believed. Acts 16:31 Believing is non-meritorious. It has no merit in and of itself. It is like eating or drinking, the merit is in the object(Christ) of what you eat or drink.

Jesse said:
Can you please give me the name of someone from the Bible who followed God but did nothing in return? A person's name of who did zero work?
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Your premise is false. We do nothing in return for our salvation. We "do" out of thankfulness for what Jesus Christ did for us.

Jesse said:
I'll be waiting.............f.o.r.e.v.e.r.
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No you won't, Hymenaeus and Philetus and Alexander.
 
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