OSAS The Truth

[FreeGrace]

What do you call someone who believes, then after a while stops believing?

The correct term is "apostate". But I favor the term "idiot".

What are you going to do with the facts?

Here are the facts.

1. God gives eternal life. 1 Jn 5:11
2. Jesus gives eternal life Jn 10:28
3. Paul describes eternal life as a gift Rom 6:23
4. God's gifts are irrevocable Rom 11:29

Given these irrefutable facts, the nonOSAS position cannot be true. Fact.

 

[Chopper]

I could delineate many of the faults of Calvins construct.

Calvin logically was not OSAS and his own writings state as much as no one really knows until the end and they pass from here and are DEEMED as such by The Divine Sovereign. That is one of the logic faults of some Divine Sovereign camps. It is one thing to encounter the studies of Divine Sovereignty. It is quite another to hold ones self out as the definer of same. Do you understand this problem of logic?

I would think that you know that OSAS, the term, is a modern one. In all the writings of Calvin, I have not seen that term. I do see, in his writings Scripture that supports "The perseverance of the Saints or the security of Believers. To list two of them, John 6:37- 39. (37) "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. AND, John 10:27, 28. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."


I would suggest that you purchase Calvin's own writings found in his book, "Institutes of the Christian Religion" which is still in print. If you were aware of his writings, I don't think you would be making these comments.

 

[JLB]

The correct term is "apostate". But I favor the term "idiot".

What are you going to do with the facts?

Here are the facts.

1. God gives eternal life. 1 Jn 5:11
2. Jesus gives eternal life Jn 10:28
3. Paul describes eternal life as a gift Rom 6:23
4. God's gifts are irrevocable Rom 11:29

Given these irrefutable facts, the nonOSAS position cannot be true. Fact.

A person who believes for a while, then stops believing, and turns away from the living God is called an unbeliever.

Either you believe or you don't believe.


If you believe, then you are a believer.

If you don't believe, then you are an unbeliever.

The cowardly and unbelieving have their part in the lake of fire.


This is scripture. This is truth.

It is however, up to God to Judge who is an unbeliever and who is a believer.

He is the Judge.


It is interesting to note that those who believe, show that they believe, by doing...


31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' Matthew 25:31-40


People who are believers, prove that they are believers by their action.


Faith without works is dead.


They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. Titus 1:16


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Those who believe for a while, then depart, are called unbelievers.

Plain and simple.



JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

The correct term is "apostate". But I favor the term "idiot".

What are you going to do with the facts?

Here are the facts.

1. God gives eternal life. 1 Jn 5:11
2. Jesus gives eternal life Jn 10:28
3. Paul describes eternal life as a gift Rom 6:23
4. God's gifts are irrevocable Rom 11:29

Given these irrefutable facts, the nonOSAS position cannot be true. Fact.

I would like to expand the thought on JLBs question.

One has to believe a very specific thing to be saved......Christ alone and His work alone on the Cross. The loss of salvation camp, will always point to the person who has believed and then goes back to the sinful life.("License to sin crowd.) And I have yet to see ONE of them post a grace pastor that actually teaches the license to sin message and where it is rampant in christiandom. Religion and doing good enough is rampant though.

And I say that the vast majority of Christians who stop believing are religious Christians. They have stopped believing the very specific thing that got them saved in the first place. And have reverted to their works for salvation and security.

They are actually the very ones who have stopped believing the very specific thing that saved them in the first place.(If, indeed they believed that in the first place)

Nice, moral, human good, church going religious people, who have stopped believing in Christ alone for their salvation and security. They want to point to the rebellious, overtly sinning, " license to sin crowd" and they are the very ones who have left their first love and the belief that got them saved.

 

[Jesse]

I would think that you know that OSAS, the term, is a modern one. In all the writings of Calvin, I have not seen that term. I do see, in his writings Scripture that supports "The perseverance of the Saints or the security of Believers. To list two of them, John 6:37- 39. (37) "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. AND, John 10:27, 28. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."


I would suggest that you purchase Calvin's own writings found in his book, "Institutes of the Christian Religion" which is still in print. If you were aware of his writings, I don't think you would be making these comments.

Chopper, have you ever read John Wesley? Just curious.

There was a huge Calvinist preacher that just resigned from his mega church, now he will be heading up a WOF church. He did sin, he was caught in sin and refuses to apologize, instead he left without reconciliation. Maybe you know who I am speaking of.

I have seriously wondered - I can not express how much this entire experience has crushed me as I actually attended that church (although I am not a Calvinist nor do I hold onto OSAS), I thought he was a good teacher, regardless of his doctrine difference. I have seriously wondered, however, if he was not a Calvinist if he would have done what he did? He believes he is of the elect supposedly, there is no way he could lose his salvation. So my thinking is, he doesn't see a need to apologize or reconcile with anyone.

I would like to see what you have to say about this, I am seriously asking, too. My intention is not to argue with you, I just want to know what you think about all of it.

Thanks.

 

[Gregg]

I can only conclude that if you were standing next to Paul, you would only see Paul. Paul did not see himself they way you think. I see Paul as he described. He stood as Paul with a messenger of Satan in his how flesh, but you can not see PARTY B apart from Paul's scriptural disclosure of facts.

Paul did not stand there as just Paul, which is the general point of the observation. He stood as Party A and B.

Are you suggesting that Paul's flesh was possessed [indwelled] by a messenger of Satan?

 

[Malachi]

Are you suggesting that Paul's flesh was possessed [indwelled] by a messenger of Satan?

Paul's affliction was a "messenger of Satan" sent to "buffet" or afflict him physically. Perhaps poor eyesight, perhaps some physical deficiency, which caused him grief and pain and hampered him.

Paul himself was always "full of the Holy Ghost". How do we so greatly misunderstand things?

 

[Malachi]

"The perseverance of the Saints or the security of Believers.

Although 5-Point Calvinism is totally erroneous, the use of the term "perseverance" was even more misleading. On the surface it is human beings who persevere. So, the corrollary to that would be a lack of perseverance, and therefore a loss of salvation. The correct term (if any) should have been "preservation".

The biblical doctrine is that we are "KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD THROUGH FAITH UNTO SALVATION" (1 Pet 1:5). Which means that it is not the saint who is "persevering" but God who is "preserving".

 

[smaller]

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate.

Uh, yeah. Pretty sure we covered this already.

 

[smaller]

Are you suggesting that Paul's flesh was possessed [indwelled] by a messenger of Satan?

Reading Paul's statement of fact.

 

[JLB]

I would like to expand the thought on JLBs question.

One has to believe a very specific thing to be saved......Christ alone and His work alone on the Cross. The loss of salvation camp, will always point to the person who has believed and then goes back to the sinful life.("License to sin crowd.) And I have yet to see ONE of them post a grace pastor that actually teaches the license to sin message and where it is rampant in christiandom. Religion and doing good enough is rampant though.

And I say that the vast majority of Christians who stop believing are religious Christians. They have stopped believing the very specific thing that got them saved in the first place. And have reverted to their works for salvation and security.

They are actually the very ones who have stopped believing the very specific thing that saved them in the first place.(If, indeed they believed that in the first place)

Nice, moral, human good, church going religious people, who have stopped believing in Christ alone for their salvation and security. They want to point to the rebellious, overtly sinning, " license to sin crowd" and they are the very ones who have left their first love and the belief that got them saved.

How about a person who stops believing that Jesus is The Messiah, and departs from the Living God through the deceitfulness of sin.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


...hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


You can mock, and say whatever you like, but if a person becomes harden through the deceitfulness of sin, it is very possible that they could in fact depart from the Living God.



JLB

 

[Gregg]

Are you suggesting that Paul's flesh was possessed [indwelled] by a messenger of Satan?

Reading Paul's statement of fact.

I can not discern from your reply, but I think you are saying that Paul's body was possessed by a messenger of Satan. I disagree.

What in Paul's statement would lead you to believe that is what he is saying?

[As this is off-topic, I'll give you a pass if you do not want to answer.]

 

[LovethroughDove]

How about a person who stops believing that Jesus is The Messiah, and departs from the Living God through the deceitfulness of sin. JLB

And this: Hebrews 12:1-5 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that world of encouragement that addresses you as sons:

It will be those of us who endure, just as Christ endured.........we will be his.

 

[Gregg]

And this: Hebrews 12:1-5 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that world of encouragement that addresses you as sons:

It will be those of us who endure, just as Christ endured.........we will be his.

But that endurance does not effect the eternal state of our salvation.

Christ did not endure the cross for His salvation, but He endured for our salvation. Accordingly, we do not endure for our salvation; but because "God is dealing with you as with sons" (Heb 12:7), and "in order for us to partake of His holiness" (Heb 12:10), and for "peaceable fruit of righteousness" (Heb 12:11).

 

[smaller]

I can not discern from your reply, but I think you are saying that Paul's body was possessed by a messenger of Satan. I disagree.

Then disagree with your own claim. I've made no such statements.

What in Paul's statement would lead you to believe that is what he is saying?

I believe Paul wrote a fact about himself.

[As this is off-topic, I'll give you a pass if you do not want to answer.]

It's not off topic. I will maintain that the understanding of OSAS is flawed by over-extension to Party B in Paul's flesh, the messenger of Satan.

Two entirely separate fates awaited what we would see in the flesh as only Paul. There was a vessel of honor (Paul) and a vessel of dishonor (the messenger of Satan) in the lump of Paul EXACTLY as Paul taught in Romans 9 and in other scriptural observations Paul taught.

It's not a difficult observation.

The non-OSAS position doesn't handle this particular matter very well either. No amount of (whatever it takes in non-OSAS land to keep and maintain salvation) would do not one bit of good for the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.

Any believer who doubts the veracity of this matter need only to asses the fact of internal temptation of the TEMPTER themselves to know this matter.

Galatians 4:14
And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Jesus and the Apostles expand this matter greatly throughout their scriptural presentations, for example linking this same matter to the fact of lawlessness and of sin, that being of the devil.

Blinded Israel had the identical issue, that of the spirit of slumber put upon them. (Romans 11:8) Blinded Gentiles have the identical issue as well, that of the god of this world blinding their minds to the Gospel.(2 Cor. 4:4)

All of these constructs called OSAS or non-OSAS utterly fail to take into account the OTHER PARTIES that are overlapped upon all of us.

It has nothing to do with possession and everything to do with sin, which is of the DEVIL. (1 John 3:8)

 

[JLB]

And this: Hebrews 12:1-5 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that world of encouragement that addresses you as sons:

It will be those of us who endure, just as Christ endured.........we will be his.

This is a good word.

This is what we should be encouraging the people of God to do, rather than teaching them there is nothing at all that we can do to lose our precious salvation, that was paid for with the very blood of Jesus.

Of course God loves us and will draw upon us and do everything possibly to work with us our whole lives so that we can come home to him and be with Him.

However if we are stubborn and keep playing with sin and won't repent and stiffen our neck and resisit His Spirit and reject His word, at some point, He will let us eat the fruit of our own way.


There are many wonderful promises in the bible that encourage us in the Love and mercy and Grace of God.


There are also many warnings that admonish us to turn away from sin, and ungodly people who will defile us and lead us astray.

Take heed, when you think you stand lest you fall.


How some can ignore the clear warnings and instructions from His word is truly amazing.

It's one thing for a new Christian to be unlearned in His word, but for seasoned older Christians to twist and deny what His word clearly says, and distort the truth so that the clear and plain warnings from the bible mean "something else", is down right deceitful.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

A person who believes for a while, then stops believing, and turns away from the living God is called an unbeliever.

Either you believe or you don't believe.


If you believe, then you are a believer.

If you don't believe, then you are an unbeliever.

The cowardly and unbelieving have their part in the lake of fire.


This is scripture. This is truth.

It is however, up to God to Judge who is an unbeliever and who is a believer.

He is the Judge.


It is interesting to note that those who believe, show that they believe, by doing...


31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' Matthew 25:31-40


People who are believers, prove that they are believers by their action.


Faith without works is dead.


They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. Titus 1:16


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Those who believe for a while, then depart, are called unbelievers.

Plain and simple.



JLB

The facts are not on your side.

Here are the facts.

1. God gives eternal life. 1 Jn 5:11
2. Jesus gives eternal life Jn 10:28
3. Paul describes eternal life as a gift Rom 6:23
4. God's gifts are irrevocable Rom 11:29

 

[JLB]

The facts are not on your side.

Here are the facts.

1. God gives eternal life. 1 Jn 5:11
2. Jesus gives eternal life Jn 10:28
3. Paul describes eternal life as a gift Rom 6:23
4. God's gifts are irrevocable Rom 11:29

11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:11-13


If you continue to believe...


Those who endure to the end will be saved.


16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:16-18


We must learn to keep ourselves from sin, and pray for those who are caught up in sin, that they may be forgiven.


If we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.




JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

How about a person who stops believing that Jesus is The Messiah, and departs from the Living God through the deceitfulness of sin.

If a person has made up their mind that it is Jesus + get rid of sin for salvation. They have stopped believing that Jesus Christ alone is the Messiah and have departed the Living God through the very subtle,mostly invisible deceitfulness of sin.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Agreed.

...hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Yes, and for the vast majority of us, it will be pride,arrogance and self righteousness. very subtle, mostly invisible. It is very rare to see a Christian foaming at the mouth,denying God publicly with a joint hanging out of their mouth, a drink in one hand and 2 ladies of the night in the other arm.

The vast majority of Christians who are hardened by the deceitfulness of sin have, in their pride, arrogance and self righteousness said," Jesus +____________ for my salvation.

You can mock, and say whatever you like, but if a person becomes harden through the deceitfulness of sin, it is very possible that they could in fact depart from the Living God.

I am not mocking you, I am giving you a different perspective. From my experience the people who have that overt sin that we can see, want to change it. But the religious Christian doesn't even know they need to change. And are in a worse spot than the Christian that they are watching and judging.

We may depart from the living God, in fact we do every time we sin, operate in human viewpoint,are not walking in the Spirit, operating in human good(evil.) But the living God never departs from the believer.



JLB[/QUOTE]

 

[Gregg]

I will maintain that the understanding of OSAS is flawed by over-extension to Party B in Paul's flesh, the messenger of Satan.

What is over-extension? And what are you defining as the messenger of Satan?

Two entirely separate fates awaited what we would see in the flesh as only Paul. There was a vessel of honor (Paul) and a vessel of dishonor (the messenger of Satan) in the lump of Paul EXACTLY as Paul taught in Romans 9 and in other scriptural observations Paul taught.

This does not make any sense whatsoever. What is the lump of Paul?

All of these constructs called OSAS or non-OSAS utterly fail to take into account the OTHER PARTIES that are overlapped upon all of us.

We are not responsible for the sin of 3rd parties unless we contributed to or fostered their sin.

What does it mean when you say "that are overlapped upon us"?

It has nothing to do with possession and everything to do with sin, which is of the DEVIL. (1 John 3:8)

We are not saved or kept from obtaining salvation because of the devil. Every man is personally responsible for his sin.