OSAS The Truth

[smaller]

So here is the question for you.

In context with Romans 11, since the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, are all Jews saved, even though the don't believe?

Yes or No?

JLB

Answered quite thoroughly in the last post to you on the matters.

Paul answers actually. I believe what Paul says is true. Most won't. Most can't perceive it.

And I'm sure you also know that UNbelief is also a sin.

So your presumption is that the atonement of Jesus Christ is insufficient for that particular sin as it pertains to a believer who is subsequently fallen into unbelief.

We see that in the case of the Jews, it is GOD who is able to graft them in again, NOT then solely of themselves and their own decision.

 

[smaller]

There are several fallacies that run in the non-OSAS camps.

One of the underlying fallacies revolves around what I term the 'God in need' postulations. These being that God NEEDS something from the proponents.

I might suggest that God is not in need period, yet alone in need of anything man can provide. So anytime I hear the 'God in NEED' of something, I reject it outright. God is simply not in need whatsoever.

And on the premise of such postulations, they think they can GIVE God something that pacifies Him, so He won't destroy them. Like their 'decision' or their 'actions.'

And again I would simply say that our God NEEDS nothing from man. There is nothing a man can give God including his decision that earns that man a red nickle of anything of God, yet alone eternal life. God is certainly not bought, sold, bartered or manipulated by anything we do.

We have nothing in our own hands to EARN that reward. Nothing. There is nothing that we have that can compare to Gods Gift in His Son. There is nothing we can exchange to GET Him.

It is by faith that we come to know His Grace. It is by faith that we remain in constant need and with nothing to give in exchange, so that we earn GRACE.

So another question that is posed in these types of exchanges is the condition of unbelief.

UNBELIEF is a spiritual problem. It is also a SIN.

The non-OSAS camps for the most part don't recognize what unbelief is on these counts. And they invariably only look to the man, his decisions, his actions, on a continuing basis so they can EXCHANGE whatever it is they think they have in exchange for eternal life.

Did the sin of unbelief get left behind at the cross?

Did what you gave or continue to give buy your way through the Pearly Gates?

No on both counts.

There are very few things any man gets for nothing. Gods Grace is one of those things.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your claim appears to be that had Paul not affirmed his experience, that his blinding encounter with Christ would have been ineffective.

Wrong. My only point was that Paul, like all the other Pharisees, faced a decision. He chose to accept the truth that Jesus is the Messiah and Deity.

I would submit that the encounter itself based on the sufficiently of Him who imposed it was sufficient to perform Divine Intentions regardless of Saul.

I reject that God causes anyone to believe. There is no Scripture that says so, so there is no reason to assume so.

Why did God create the human race with an intellect AND "the Law written on their hearts" (Rom 2:14)? To have the innate ability to evaluate God's promises and to decide for themselves whether or not to believe them.

And you merely fail to perceive that the god of this world BLINDED them and place the entire onus on man when that's never been the case:

Totally wrong. I'm fully aware of 1 Jn 5:19. Of course satan blinds people.

You on the other hand present that people blind themselves and that, only of and by themselves.

Actually, Scripture also says so. Which is why I say so.

Acts 28:27 - For the heart of this people has become dull, And with their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes; Otherwise they might see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.”’ NASB

So, why "closed their eyes"? They did. To themselves.

And, of course, satan is right there blinding people's eyes. How? Providing false doctrine that sounds good to the hearers, but isn't Biblical.

I would suggest that it's a continuing spiritual issue, to fail to perceive the enemy, BECAUSE that enemy does not allow the matters to be seen.

I think you give the enemy way too much credit.

What does 2 Cor 3:16 say?
"but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."

So, WHEN is the veil of blindness taken away? WHEN a person turns to the Lord. Not before, as Calvinism believes.

You could ask yourself if internal temptation in mind is only of you, or is it of Satan, the tempter?

I don't have to ask myself. Both is the answer, of course.

I'd suggest the later, and if you suggest the former, I'd suggest that sight is void of scriptural insight to the matters of temptation.

Well, you'd be wrong in your suggestion, for both are in play.

 

[FreeGrace]

You "theory has been shown to be invalid, several times, yet you just ignore the obvious and keep trying to convince everyone that unbelievers are still saved.

Unbelievers are NOT saved. But anyone who has EVER believed IS saved. I have no theory; only the Word of God which you continue to reject, in favor of your own opinion that is false.

Eternal life is charisma (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). You've done nothing to show that eternal life is revocable.

The gifts in Romans 11:29 are not referring to eternal life anymore than the gifts in Romans 12 are referring to eternal life. Charisma refers to the abilities that accompany the calling, as the context dictates.

Except Paul defined eternal life AS charisma in Rom 6:23, so your opinion is refuted by Paul himself.

The problem is that you just don't want to accept what refutes your pet opinion about eternal life.

6 Having then gifts [charisma] differing according to the grace [charis] that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Romans 12:6-8

Sure. Even these gifts (charisma) are irrevocable. Just as the charisma of eternal life, which you refuse to accept.

These gifts that accompany the various callings within the body of Christ are given by God's grace.

Likewise, if the those of the house of Israel who have never believed, yet are still called, because the gifts and calling are irrevocable, chose to believe then they will be grafted in.

Hold on now. ch 11 is real clear about Israel being "grafted BACK IN". Remember that Paul noted that Israel was CUT OFF. So your whole notion is shot down by Paul's statement about being irrevocable.

It is obvious you don't understand the meaning of "irrevocable". The "if" clause in Rom 11 refutes your point.

So here is the question for you.

In context with Romans 11, since the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, are all Jews saved, even though the don't believe? JLB

Nope.

Here is the question for you:

In context of Paul's entire epistle, and his describing eternal life as charisma, why do you continue to reject that eternal life is irrevocable?

 

[smaller]

Wrong. My only point was that Paul, like all the other Pharisees, faced a decision. He chose to accept the truth that Jesus is the Messiah and Deity.

And your suggestion is that the experience, the action of God in Christ would have been entirely worthless and without merit were it not VALIDATED by Saul.

I reject such notions. Saul did NOTHING to validate God in Christ. He was nothing but a pathetic blinded slave of SATAN until the Day the LIGHT forced him out of his spiritual captivity.

I reject that God causes anyone to believe.

God in Christ is invalidated by NO MAN.

Why did God create the human race with an intellect AND "the Law written on their hearts" (Rom 2:14)? To have the innate ability to evaluate God's promises and to decide for themselves whether or not to believe them.

The game that a lot of religious people play is that they have something that GOD NEEDS, in your case, a validation by decision.

God in all His Works and all His Ways is not invalidated or placed in a lesser position by anything any man says or does.

And no, God is not placed in a postion of NEED of your decision about anything. He changes NOT.

If any man hears or believes, it is only because it was GOD Himself who has removed them from control of spiritual blindness imposed by the god of this world, the spirit of disobedience, the prince of the power of the air.

NO blindman even knows his factual condition, not does such a blind man come out apart from the POWER OF GOD in making that so.

Totally wrong. I'm fully aware of 1 Jn 5:19. Of course satan blinds people.

Oh, ya think? Did such a blinded slave even know what his problem was? And 'decided' to overcome what he doesn't even know or perceive?

Uh, not. That is why preachers can preach til the cows come home, but unless and until God Himself decides to engage the factual spiritual captor of such a man, that man will know, see or perceive exactly NOTHING. It will be like water off a ducks back.

So, why "closed their eyes"? They did. To themselves.

The choice was never in their hands to begin with. All people are born into this world under control of the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience, the god of this world.

So it is not just THEM in the equation as you so blindly propose.

You think that power, that agent, has no say? And that such decisions are only in the hands of blinded men as to what the other party intends for them?

Man is simply NOT a stand alone entity, and that is where your position falls.

It is the MAN and his captor.

 

[gr8grace3]

Wrong. My only point was that Paul, like all the other Pharisees, faced a decision. He chose to accept the truth that Jesus is the Messiah and Deity.


I reject that God causes anyone to believe. There is no Scripture that says so, so there is no reason to assume so.

Why did God create the human race with an intellect AND "the Law written on their hearts" (Rom 2:14)? To have the innate ability to evaluate God's promises and to decide for themselves whether or not to believe them.


Totally wrong. I'm fully aware of 1 Jn 5:19. Of course satan blinds people.


Actually, Scripture also says so. Which is why I say so.

Acts 28:27 - For the heart of this people has become dull, And with their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes; Otherwise they might see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.”’ NASB

So, why "closed their eyes"? They did. To themselves.

And, of course, satan is right there blinding people's eyes. How? Providing false doctrine that sounds good to the hearers, but isn't Biblical.




What does 2 Cor 3:16 say?
"but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."

So, WHEN is the veil of blindness taken away? WHEN a person turns to the Lord. Not before, as Calvinism believes.


I don't have to ask myself. Both is the answer, of course.


Well, you'd be wrong in your suggestion, for both are in play.

Especially this:

I think you give the enemy way too much credit.

 

[smaller]

Let's see.

The WHOLE WORLD of unbelievers is blinded by the god of this world and every sin is of the devil and we don't factor that into our theology? Too much credit? How about too much blindness in overlooking the obvious.

lol to any of that blindness.

And furthermore, do we suggest a LESSER God in the equations, entirely UNable to overcome?

Again I say, lol.

Let's get the stack of theology aligned correctly.

God
Satan
Man

These are the parties to every spiritual equation, AND in their order of POWER.

And to make the theological facts even more interesting, the last two parties are OVERLAPPED.

But let's just ignore that part too.

 

[gr8grace3]

Let's see.

The WHOLE WORLD of unbelievers is blinded by the god of this world and we don't factor that into our theology?

lol to any of that.

And furthermore, do we suggest a LESSER God in the equations, entirely UNable to overcome?

Again I say, lol.

Let's get the stack of theology aligned correctly.

God
Satan
Man

These are the parties to every spiritual equation, AND in their order of POWER.

And to make the theological facts even more interesting, the last two parties are OVERLAPPED.

But let's just ignore that part too.

In my opinion, you are assigning Gods attributes to satan.

you have satan as omnipresent,omniscient and omnipotent.

You seem to overlook the fact that we have the mind of Christ to battle this CREATED being that is far to smart for us on our own.

New American Standard Bible
For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Cor 2:16

And you seem to overlook the fact that the first party and the last party are in UNION after we believe, not just overlapped.

Col 2:10~~So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

What does 2 Cor 3:16 say?
"but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."

So, WHEN is the veil of blindness taken away? WHEN a person turns to the Lord. Not before, as Calvinism believes.

This is true. I have done many things in my life and thought I was "awake" and aware. But the veil only fully came off for me when I accepted JC as my lord and savior and admitted I was a sinner and came to God in a broken state. Then I truly knew the truth and could see the evil and darkness in things.

 

[smaller]

In my opinion, you are assigning Gods attributes to satan.

If you think that man and this world have NOT been given over to the power of the god of this world BY GOD, you would be wrong.

This condition we call life was not an accident. It is by Divine Design and was so from the beginning.

God has factually planted man in his present condition on all counts, and done so with His Own Purposes, that being ultimately a Divine Showing of His Power over ALL of same.

you have satan as omnipresent,omniscient and omnipotent.

You saw the priority stack. I don't believe Satan has any more power than he's been given. To say he has none or that it was not given would be false.

We know from the text many things about Satan's powers. We know that all unbelievers are under his captivity. We know that every sin is connected to the devil in some way. And we know that the WHOLE WORLD resides in spiritual wickedness, that being of the god of this world.

You can ignore the obvious, but it's not going to change the fact. That is the present reality that we are ALL immersed into. Whether it's seen/perceived or not is irrelevant to the facts of it.

You seem to overlook the fact that we have the mind of Christ to battle this CREATED being that is far to smart for us on our own.

A believer's stack is changed without any doubt. It is no longer

God
Satan
Man

but

God in Christ
Man
Satan placed under our feet

But that did NOT eliminate Satan's power from the theology stack.

Believers can still be blinded by the god of this world. They can still be blinded to Satan in their sights. They still sin. They can have a messenger of Satan in their flesh as Paul showed us. They do still have internal temptations by that same wicked power.

So yeah, it's something that needs to be factored in OR we just remain blinded to that fact by the fact of the existence of that power and it's agents.

And you seem to overlook the fact that the first party and the last party are in UNION after we believe, not just overlapped.

I'd suggest that Divine Superiorty over the entire stack has never waivered NOR has the power of Satan been yet removed from the equations.

That is part of the eventual Gospel Promise. The eventual removal and destruction of Satan, all his works, all his ways. All his powers.

This is in fact the promise of the Gospel.

 

[smaller]

This is true. I have done many things in my life and thought I was "awake" and aware. But the veil only fully came off for me when I accepted JC as my lord and savior and admitted I was a sinner and came to God in a broken state. Then I truly knew the truth and could see the evil and darkness in things.

And thusly we are welcomed in BY His Light of Life.

We are no longer blind to the obvious. And we can supposedly more readily see and be fit for battle because we are FORCED to engage.

 

[gr8grace3]

If you think that man and this world have NOT been given over to the power of the god of this world BY GOD, you would be wrong.

This condition we call life was not an accident. It is by Divine Design and was so from the beginning.

God has factually planted man in his present condition on all counts, and done so with His Own Purposes, that being ultimately a Divine Showing of His Power over ALL of same.


You saw the priority stack. I don't believe Satan has any more power than he's been given. To say he has none or that it was not given would be false.

We know from the text many things about Satan's powers. We know that all unbelievers are under his captivity. We know that every sin is connected to the devil in some way. And we know that the WHOLE WORLD resides in spiritual wickedness, that being of the god of this world.

You can ignore the obvious, but it's not going to change the fact. That is the present reality that we are ALL immersed into. Whether it's seen/perceived or not is irrelevant to the facts of it.


A believer's stack is changed without any doubt. It is no longer

God
Satan
Man

but

God in Christ
Man
Satan placed under our feet

But that did NOT eliminate Satan's power from the theology stack.

Believers can still be blinded by the god of this world. They can still be blinded to Satan in their sights. They still sin. They can have a messenger of Satan in their flesh as Paul showed us. They do still have internal temptations by that same wicked power.

So yeah, it's something that needs to be factored in OR we just remain blinded to that fact by the fact of the existence of that power and it's agents.


I'd suggest that Divine Superiorty over the entire stack has never waivered NOR has the power of Satan been yet removed from the equations.

That is part of the eventual Gospel Promise. The eventual removal and destruction of Satan, all his works, all his ways. All his powers.

This is in fact the promise of the Gospel.

Do you believe that Adam and Eve would not have fallen if satan had not been around?

 

[JLB]

Answered quite thoroughly in the last post to you on the matters.

Paul answers actually. I believe what Paul says is true. Most won't. Most can't perceive it.

And I'm sure you also know that UNbelief is also a sin.

So your presumption is that the atonement of Jesus Christ is insufficient for that particular sin as it pertains to a believer who is subsequently fallen into unbelief.

We see that in the case of the Jews, it is GOD who is able to graft them in again, NOT then solely of themselves and their own decision.

Please just answer the simple question.

Are unbelieving Jews saved?

Yes or No ?


JLB

Unbelievers are NOT saved. But anyone who has EVER believed IS saved. I have no theory; only the Word of God which you continue to reject, in favor of your own opinion that is false.

Eternal life is charisma (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). You've done nothing to show that eternal life is revocable.


Except Paul defined eternal life AS charisma in Rom 6:23, so your opinion is refuted by Paul himself.

The problem is that you just don't want to accept what refutes your pet opinion about eternal life.


Sure. Even these gifts (charisma) are irrevocable. Just as the charisma of eternal life, which you refuse to accept.


Hold on now. ch 11 is real clear about Israel being "grafted BACK IN". Remember that Paul noted that Israel was CUT OFF. So your whole notion is shot down by Paul's statement about being irrevocable.

It is obvious you don't understand the meaning of "irrevocable". The "if" clause in Rom 11 refutes your point.


Nope.

Here is the question for you:

In context of Paul's entire epistle, and his describing eternal life as charisma, why do you continue to reject that eternal life is irrevocable?

No where in scripture does it say eternal life is irrevocable.

The gifts and callings are irrevocable.

Spiritual gifts in Romans 12 do not equal eternal life.

Are you somehow suggesting if someone has a spiritual gift (charisma) such as prophesy, then they have eternal life?

There is no such scripture that states eternal life is irrevocable.

A person must put two scriptures together, while taking one out of context, to come up with this false idea.

That is why OSAS is a false doctrine.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Do you believe that Adam and Eve would not have fallen if satan had not been around?

Nope. But that was never in the plan to begin with. The fruit of the knowledge of evil (and good of course) was also there in the garden with them as was the tempter, who was ALSO moved into RESISTING actions by the Word of God being sown.

None of those things happened apart from the Direct Intentions of God from the beginning. Adam was purposefully Divinely planted in weakness, dishonor, corruption, disobedience and death in a natural dust body that was also Divinely Planned to pass away. Gods Way is always first the natural, then the spiritual. Gods Intents was for his son Adam to have a SPIRITUAL BODY after his first planting in the natural, under all the duress that comes by that planting in darkness.

Way too much attention is postulated about Adam's disobedient decision, but that was a foregone conclusion "because" it was never a question of just Adam.

It's a question of Adam and the TEMPTER who entered him to deceive him.

 

[smaller]

Please just answer the simple question.

Are unbelieving Jews saved?

Yes or No ?

JLB

I've pointed you to Romans 11:25-32 as my accepted answer from Paul. Go read it and make your own conclusions.

No where in scripture does it say eternal life is irrevocable.

We have many examples in the text where falling into unbelief does NOT result in eternal damnation. Millions of them.

Unbelief in what remains a question unanswered by YOU. I am an unbeliever in many phony forms of Jesus and gave the RCC as my personal example. I do not believe in Jesus as demanded by the Roman catholic church because it's a phony capture of men posing that only THEY have the entire reality of what/who Jesus Is and what is required. To them and their ways I am an unbeliever in SOME of what THEY say just as I would be an unbeliever in what you might give as your criteria. That doesn't mean that people are in unbelief. It more than likely means in every case that they don't believe MAN.

Which I don't blame them for. I don't either. There are are lot of phony Jesus caricatures in this world in case you missed it. The RCC is just one of thousands.

 

[gr8grace3]

It's a question of Adam and the TEMPTER who entered him to deceive him.

Scripture says you give satan way to much credit. Satan did not enter Adam. And Adam was not deceived.

1 Timothy 2:14 (NASB95)
14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

But it was by the MANS transgression that mankind fell. Because HE was NOT deceived, He used his own freewill to disobey God.

 

[smaller]

Scripture says you give satan way to much credit. Satan did not enter Adam. And Adam was not deceived.

The Living Word says that Satan is moved into resistance where the Word is sown.

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Satan MUST do what he does because it is commanded by God that Satan resists.

If it is NOT so, then Jesus LIED.

Satan ENTERED Adam because the Word was sown in Adam. From that point forward it was never a question of just Adam. Adam's sin was no different than any man's sin. It is OF THE DEVIL who controls them in their sin.

Adam was deceived by the god of this world and every man or woman who has been born into this world remains under the same spiritual disobedience of Satan who BLINDS their minds and is and remains involved in EVERY SIN that every slave of sin commits in THOUGHT, word or deed.

There is no way to subtract the devil from the equation.

And where you see EVE was deceived, EVE was still Adam's INNER MAN when God sowed His Word upon Adam. They were BOTH called Adam in the beginning.

It is always the INNER MAN who is deceived.

 

[Gregg]

Is it your contention, then, that those who apostatize "were never really saved in the first place"?

Regarding "falling away" [αποστασία] in 2Th 2:3, I believe they are mere professors of faith and not born from above. They hovered near God and the Church, wanting to be like both, but never entering into either.

Regarding those who "depart" [αφίστημι] from the faith in 1Tim 4:1, are those who stand away from God never having belonged to Him. They refused to believe.

- - -

All men sin, including Christians. But the new nature of a Christian, along with the Holy Spirit who indwells him, will not allow that one to remain in sin or continue sinning.

When a Christian sins, he incurs the consequences of that sin . . . discipline, punishment, perhaps a missed blessing; but never a judgment that reverses his standing with God. Once having been born from above [having believed into Christ] his standing with God is based upon God's righteousness imputed to him, by God's unmerited favor for those in Christ, and because of the blood of Christ.

We did not earn those things that God gave to us in Christ, nor was God indebted to us to give us those things. A believer born from above will not earn, or work, his way out of the salvation give to us in Christ. The nature, character, and duration of that salvation is such that it is based upon the Life of the Son of God; we do not have mere life, but eternal life. We do not have momentary grace, but grace upon grace, super-abounding grace.

"Who will bring any charge against God's elect? God is the One justifying!" (Rom 8:33; please consider to read the adjacent verses). Therefore, God will not bring a change against those to whom He has given eternal life - He is the One justifying! Praise the LORD! Hallelujah!

 

[gr8grace3]

Adam was deceived by the god of this world

1 Timothy 2:14 (NASB95)
14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

 

[smaller]

1 Timothy 2:14 (NASB95)
14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

All deception transpires internally. EVE was IN ADAM when the Word was sown and it was IN Adam that deception and theft transpired BEFORE Eve was taken out of Adam.

The deception of Satan, the tempter, was on the INNER MAN, Eve, from the start.

The Word was STOLEN and the deceiver deceived the inner man.