OSAS The Truth

[FreeGrace]

another poster said this:
"You've still failed to provide or describe your 'continuing belief' criteria."

Ok, let's try it this way.

Which one of the following bullet point statements do you agree with?

Which one of the following bullet point statements do you disagree with?

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

• James is speaking to Christians. Agree or Disagree?

• James is addressing Christian Brethren who have wandered [turned] from the truth. Agree or Disagree?

• a person who turns from the truth, is likened to a sinner... as it is written - he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death. Agree or Disagree?

• Saving a sinner from death refers to eternal death, not physical death. Agree or Disagree?

• ...from the truth means they were walking in the truth and turned away. Agree or Disagree?JLB

Maybe you didn't understand what he meant by "criteria". He was looking for verses that SAY what you CLAIM about "continuing to believe or be lost". That is the criteria.

Not answering questions from you. Where's the verse? That's all the criteria we need to believe truth.

And I've addressed the Greek word for "soul" in James 5:20. It was used to describe physical life, not eternal life.

iow, James taught that a believer who helps another believer turn back to the truth, we have saved that believer from the divine discipline known as the sin unto death. We've saved them from dying as a result of their apostasy.

The claim that "soul" here refers to eternity is just your opinion. You haven't proven that it is. Do the homework and you'll see that the word referred to physical life.

 

[FreeGrace]

let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.

Its self explanatory. Everyone knows what the fate of sinners are, as their soul will be sent to the lake of fire.

All believers continue to sin. Are you suggesting that we all are going to end up in the LoF??? That's silly.

Christ paid the entire sin debt of mankind. NO ONE goes to the LoF for sin. Why do they go there? For NOT possessing God's life, which is eternal life. Rev 20:15 is the proof of that.

Case closed! Your "explanation" is not needed.

More like, "mind closed. Will not comprehend truth."

 

[JLB]

Why haven't you done that with me? I showed that the Greek word for "gift" is the SAME WORD in both Rom 6:23 where eternal life is described as a gift, and in Rom 11:29 where God's gifts are irrevocable. You haven't discussed the significance of this. Why? You ask others to do what you yourself have not, and will not do.

How is that honorable?

No!

You state what you think the scripture means, then you "tag" it with a scripture reference. Rom 6:23


No where does this scripture say that the gift of God of eternal life is irrevocable.


Here is what it says -

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

... let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.

This phrase can't be explained away.

Right. It's been explained TO you.

By saying "Brethren", and "among you" James is addressing Christian brethren, and especially adding the phrase "wandered from the truth", it is crystal clear that James is addressing brothers who were walking in the truth, and have departed from or turned from the truth.JLB

Yes, he was addressing believers. Who wandered from the truth. And, as a result, were in danger of physical death as part of God's discipline. We see the sin unto death regarding the exodus generation in 1 Cor 10 and 11:30 specifically for abusing the Lord's Table. Also Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 and turning over the incestuous believer to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (physical death) in 1 cor 5.

Instead of merely dismissing my comments and verses, please provide an explanation of how my view is wrong.

 

[Gregg]

It actually indicates that there is no debate. Paul even goes a little farther in Rom 5:9 with his logic.

"Much more then, being justified(aorist,passive) now by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Rom 5:9 LITV).

"Much more then" is Paul introducing "a fortiori." If Christ did the "much more then" of justifying us through His death, He is completely capable of doing "the less then" thing of saving us from His wrath.

The a fortiori system of logical argument is this: If someone can do the more difficult, then it follows with stronger reason that that same person can do the easier thing. Or, if someone can do the greater, then they can do the less.

Thank you gr8grace. I benefit from your studies and from your dedication to the LORD.

 

[gr8grace3]

How could you possibly think James is addressing unsaved sinners in his letter, that uses these words and phrases?

It is precisely what you are trying to convince us all of. That some of the brothers have in fact become unsaved sinners.

So, I would agree with you on this one,"How could anyone possibly think James is addressing unsaved sinners in his letter."

 

[JLB]

Please look up the word for "soul" here. It was the common way to speak of physical life at that time in history. Every 1st Century Greek speaker would understand this verse in James to be speaking about saving from physical death. Certainly not eternal death.

Your position clearly vascillates between ceasing to believe or continuing in sin as how one loses salvation. Is it both? Or which one, actually?

More importantly, why haven't you provided ANY Scripture that says either thing?

Most importantly, why do you believe what you cannot find clearly stated in Scripture?

I believe that God's gift, eternal life (charisma) is irrevocable. I've given the verses that prove that.

Why do you reject what the Bible very clearly states?

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

• James is speaking to Christians. Agree or Disagree?

• James is addressing Christian Brethren who have wandered [turned] from the truth. Agree or Disagree?

• a person who turns from the truth, is likened to a sinner... as it is written - he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death. Agree or Disagree?

• Saving a sinner from death refers to eternal death, not physical death. Agree or Disagree?

• ...from the truth means they were walking in the truth and turned away. Agree or Disagree?

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

In this verse, is the death of the one who sins and receives the wages of sin here, physical death or eternal death?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

You state what you think the scripture means, then you "tag" it with a scripture reference. Rom 6:23

Why won't you accept the FACT that the Greek word for "gift" in Tom 6:23 is the SAME WORD in 11:29? That is the issue. And the context for 11:29.

No where does this scripture say that the gift of God of eternal life is irrevocable.

Paul used the SAME WORD for gift referring to eternal life in Rom 6:23 as he did in 11:29 where God's gifts are irrevocable.

Here is what it says -

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 JLB

Sure. And the Greek word for "gift" here is the SAME WORD that Paul used in 11:29 which says that God's gifts are irrevocable.

You have no leg to stand on.

To the question, what gifts was Paul referring to in Rom 11:29, the answer is what he described as a gift in 6:23, which is eternal life.

One doesn't even have to "connect the dots". It's clear as can be.

The problem is your refusal to accept both 6:23 and 11:29 as referring to the SAME THING, so your claim that there is no verse that says that eternal life is irrevocable is simply preposterous.

 

[FreeGrace]

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

• James is speaking to Christians. Agree or Disagree?

• James is addressing Christian Brethren who have wandered [turned] from the truth. Agree or Disagree?

• a person who turns from the truth, is likened to a sinner... as it is written - he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death. Agree or Disagree?

• Saving a sinner from death refers to eternal death, not physical death. Agree or Disagree?

• ...from the truth means they were walking in the truth and turned away. Agree or Disagree?

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

In this verse, is the death of the one who sins and receives the wages of sin here, physical death or eternal death?
JLB

I've explained the meaning of "soul" in James 5:20, but you have decided to ignore the truth of it, so there's no reason to continue discussing either James 5:20 or Rom 6:23 in relation to 11:29, where Paul used the SAME WORD for "gift" in both verses.

Why you continue to reject the truth is totally beyond me. Such action forces me to conclude that you aren't a serious student of the Word. If you were, you'd have to acknowledge these facts. But you haven't and won't.

 

[smaller]

Paul's experience is interesting, but all Jesus did without Saul's permission was to present Himself to Paul. He didn't make Paul believe in Him. At least there is nothing in Scripture that indicates that.

When Jesus made His appearance to Paul, Paul still had a choice; reject the vision or accept it as true. He did the later.

And I would suggest that the above fails on 2 counts.

One, A Divine Intervention quite entirely apart from the seeking of Saul himself transpired. Therefore it was a Divinely Directed Encounter with The Living God, Jesus Christ, which makes it exceptionally unique.

And in that process of calling out Saul, it was done so by forcing down SAUL'S captor. That would be SATAN who blinded Saul's MIND and HEART to the Gospel.

This is what happens when anyone believes. The god of this world is FORCED BACK in order for the believer to COME FORTH.

The Pharisees were presented many times with the miracles of Jesus. They too had a choice; they chose to reject the miracles as being from God.

They were Divinely Purposefully unaware of their own internal problem no different than Saul. Observation of Words to the Pharisees are an excellent observation of the ADVERSE POWERS of Satan that men are held captive by, internally.

Gods Words to some will actually CAUSE the resistance party to harden and resist even moreso. And this is played out sufficiently in the Pharisees.

It remains only in The Hands of God to determine which party will be allowed to rise to the forefront.

Pharisees could NOT hear these Words of Jesus:

Matthew 23:28
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Modern day Pharisees remain in the same condition. And they still can NOT hear these Words. In fact it is impossible, because of the activity that transpires wherever the Word is sown.

Satan enters hearts to STEAL Word. Satan deafens and blinds men to Gods Words. Children of the devil operated WITHIN them all.

That is also why the men in the temple were the first in line to be STRUCK as well, because it was with these men that the Word was entrusted and in them it was sown.

Not all is as it appears to be on the surface. And we can even observe these Jesus killers to speak TRUTHful word of God, just to make it even more obscure, here for example:

John 11:
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

They were actually Divinely Directed to do their deed.

We know this from Jesus' appeal to them here:
John 10:37-39
37“If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” 39Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp. NASB

They chose the former. Like the Pharisees did.

Your sight still fails to take this matter under account as a reality:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

You see only Pharisees. That is not ALL that went on with them.

Yes, that would be just your opinion. Paul made a choice to accept the vision. The Pharisees by and large rejected Jesus' miracles.

I would continue to suggest that the EXPERIENCE instantly changed Saul, just as it would for any man thusly called.

No one is 'led into faith'. That smacks of reformed theology, in which God chooses who will believe, which is not substantiated in Scripture.

Men do not conjure up their own faith. It is given to every believer by God in order to perceive the matters of God in Christ.

Seems the "loss of salvation" camp doesn't really have a place in their theology for rewards.

We agree on the bigger picture. There is not one instance in the entire text where any named believer is shown to be heading to eternal damnation in hell as an example.

So the entire position they present, in reality, doesn't even exist by example of the text.

 

[Gregg]

Here is what it says -

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

JBL,

Did you add the word "eternal" to Rom 6:23?

 

[smaller]

It is precisely what you are trying to convince us all of. That some of the brothers have in fact become unsaved sinners.

So, I would agree with you on this one,"How could anyone possibly think James is addressing unsaved sinners in his letter."

The Word of God, and James certainly uttered what we consider to be Divinely Inspired scripture, is to be broadcasted to ALL men.

Why is it then that WE fail to perceive this from James?

James 3:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.



How many believers curse men, made in the similitude of God?

I'd venture today that the percentage is exceptionally large. Every man of you who curse men to eternal death are paying the devilish due.

Jesus came to SAVE men. Not to condemn them.

 

[dadof10]

If you believe the Bible, yes, they are still saved. But you seem not to believe the Bible. Which describes eternal life as a gift (charisma) and says that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable.

Before Rom 11:29, Paul wrote that neither "things present, nor things future" can separate us (believers) from the Love of Christ (Rom 8:38).

Why do you not believe what Paul wrote?

Really? Where does the Bible teach that apostates are saved? That's what JLB is describing, someone who rejects Christ for Allah. I can see using the "never saved in the first place" excuse, but to say that even people who reject Christ are saved anyway implies that apostates are saved.

 

[Gregg]

Really? Where does the Bible teach that apostates are saved? That's what JLB is describing, someone who rejects Christ for Allah. I can see using the "never saved in the first place" excuse, but to say that even people who reject Christ are saved anyway implies that apostates are saved.

What proponents of OSAS have been saying, and what the Scriptures says, is that when a person believes into Christ he is then at that moment born from above. The result of that one-time event of believing into Christ is everlasting. That is the nature, character, and quality of the life which is given to men who believe into Christ, that the new life is an everlasting life . . . eternal life.

What happens to the one who believes into Christ? God's righteousness is accounted to him; he is declared innocent; he has permanent legal standing before God; he has peace with God; he is indwelled by the Spirit of God; he has a Living Mediator who makes continual intercession for him. Believers are captives led into the captivity of God, into the Hand of God, set firmly into the Tabernacle of God. We are transferred from the kingdom of the world into the kingdom of His Beloved Son. We have passed from death to life. We who were formerly alienated from God, now know God through Jesus Christ; and to know Him is eternal life.

Scripture defines the way into these things, into Christ, into the presence of God our Father; but nowhere . . . does Scripture even remotely address the undoing of these things. However, Scripture does at great length address falling short of obedience to the will of God; that is to fall short of believing in God our only Savior for eternal life.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (John 5:24). Jesus said those words before He went to the cross, true and applicable at that time. How much more now that He is resurrected! . . . that we are justified by His grace (Tit 3:7), justified by faith (Rom 5:1), and justified in His blood (Rom 5:9).

"And this is the witness: that God gave us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son. The one having the Son has life. The one not having the Son of God does not have life. I wrote these things to you, the ones believing in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have everlasting life, and that you may believe in the name of the Son of God" (1Jn 5:11-13).

 

[FreeGrace]

And I would suggest that the above fails on 2 counts.

One, A Divine Intervention quite entirely apart from the seeking of Saul himself transpired. Therefore it was a Divinely Directed Encounter with The Living God, Jesus Christ, which makes it exceptionally unique.

I never said it wasn't. So your "evaluation" fails.

And in that process of calling out Saul, it was done so by forcing down SAUL'S captor. That would be SATAN who blinded Saul's MIND and HEART to the Gospel.

Do you understand the meaning of the word "call", as in "called out"? Please respond.

Pharisees could NOT hear these Words of Jesus:

Because they closed their ears. A decision they made.

They were actually Divinely Directed to do their deed.

The act was divined directed, and God knew who would carry out the deed. Which is what Acts 17:26 is about. Putting people in place to accomplish God's will. No one was forced to do it.

You see only Pharisees. That is not ALL that went on with them.

Your posts continue with vagueness. If there's more, why didn't you just say what was more? I suspect you have no answers.

Men do not conjure up their own faith. It is given to every believer by God in order to perceive the matters of God in Christ.

When a thought occurs to you, who "conjured" it up? Or what?

 

[FreeGrace]

Really? Where does the Bible teach that apostates are saved?

First, some background, so that one may follow.

The meaning of "apostate" is to "no longer believe what one used to believe", and can be applied to religion or politics. And Jesus gave us an example of an apostate, in Luke 8:13, the second soil, who "believed for a while" and then "fell away".

So, an apostate, as applied in the Biblical sense, is one who used to believe in Christ for eternal life.

Now, Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift (charisma). Then, Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable. Do I have to define the word "irrevocable" to you?

One who has been given eternal life cannot lose the gift. Period.

That's what JLB is describing, someone who rejects Christ for Allah. I can see using the "never saved in the first place" excuse, but to say that even people who reject Christ are saved anyway implies that apostates are saved.

The truth of Scripture is that eternal life is a gift, and God's gifts are irrevocable.

You do the math.

One more thing: Rom 8:38 says that "neither things present or things future" can separate us from the love of Christ.

Do you find anything in that passage regarding the future that is exempt from not separating us from Christ? iow, is there any condition that could or does separate us from the love of Christ?

I haven't found any.

 

[JLB]

"And this is the witness: that God gave us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son. The one having the Son has life. The one not having the Son of God does not have life. I wrote these things to you, the ones believing in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have everlasting life, and that you may believe in the name of the Son of God" (1Jn 5:11-13).

Key words:

...you may believe in the name of the Son of God"

...I wrote these things to you, the ones believing in the name of the Son of God,


OSAS teaches that unbelievers or ex believers are saved.

This scripture does not say this.

OSAS is therefore false.



JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

What proponents of OSAS have been saying, and what the Scriptures says, is that when a person believes into Christ he is then at that moment born from above. The result of that one-time event of believing into Christ is everlasting. That is the nature, character, and quality of the life which is given to men who believe into Christ, that the new life is an everlasting life . . . eternal life.

What happens to the one who believes into Christ? God's righteousness is accounted to him; he is declared innocent; he has permanent legal standing before God; he has peace with God; he is indwelled by the Spirit of God; he has a Living Mediator who makes continual intercession for him. Believers are captives led into the captivity of God, into the Hand of God, set firmly into the Tabernacle of God. We are transferred from the kingdom of the world into the kingdom of His Beloved Son. We have passed from death to life. We who were formerly alienated from God, now know God through Jesus Christ; and to know Him is eternal life.

Scripture defines the way into these things, into Christ, into the presence of God our Father; but nowhere . . . does Scripture even remotely address the undoing of these things. However, Scripture does at great length address falling short of obedience to the will of God; that is to fall short of believing in God our only Savior for eternal life.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (John 5:24). Jesus said those words before He went to the cross, true and applicable at that time. How much more now that He is resurrected! . . . that we are justified by His grace (Tit 3:7), justified by faith (Rom 5:1), and justified in His blood (Rom 5:9).

"And this is the witness: that God gave us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son. The one having the Son has life. The one not having the Son of God does not have life. I wrote these things to you, the ones believing in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have everlasting life, and that you may believe in the name of the Son of God" (1Jn 5:11-13).

I, likewise, benefit from your studies and dedication to our Lord. Thanks Gregg.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (John 5:24)

The words "truly,truly" is a sentential(SP?) participle. It puts great importance on what is being said, and it is a point of doctrine that we NEED to pay particular attention to. It is going to be a truth that is very important and very vital to the believer. The believer NEEDS to know this very vital point of doctrine.....Eternally secure.
The Lord Jesus Christ knew these doctrines would be attacked by the kingdom of darkness so He tells us to pay particular attention to them and take hold of this point of doctrine.
Being born again. John 3:3

The deity of Christ. John 8:58. For a few examples.

The believer needs to know them to advance in the Christian way of life and be able to defend the Hope that lies within.

Among other words in this verse alone, we also have the Greek word metabebeken, which means to be TOTALLY removed or TOTALLY depart from something. It is in the perfect tense with the indicative mood. And that is a dogmatic way of referring to eternal security.

but has passed out of death into life" (John 5:24) Totally removed from spiritual death or eternal death.

 

[FreeGrace]

OSAS teaches that unbelievers or ex believers are saved.

You need to stop making FALSE statements. OSAS NEVER teaches that unbelievers are saved. Ever.

You need to get a grip on your terms. One who ceases to believe is an apostate, or an ex-believer. The prefix "ex" designates one who did believe.

You were given an excellent example of an ex-wife. No one in their right mind would call a divorced woman an un-wife.

That would be un-wise. ;)

This scripture does not say this.

OSAS is therefore false.

Your logic is way flawed.

Eternal life is a gift (charisma) and God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable. OSAS is biblical.

Your view cannot be found in Scripture.

 

[JLB]

You need to stop making FALSE statements. OSAS NEVER teaches that unbelievers are saved. Ever.

You need to get a grip on your terms. One who ceases to believe is an apostate, or an ex-believer. The prefix "ex" designates one who did believe.

You were given an excellent example of an ex-wife. No one in their right mind would call a divorced woman an un-wife.

That would be un-wise. ;)


Your logic is way flawed.

Eternal life is a gift (charisma) and God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable. OSAS is biblical.

Your view cannot be found in Scripture.

You for one have stated that a person does not need to believe to be saved.

A person that does not believe, is in fact an unbeliever, or as some put it, an ex believer.

Either way, a person who no longer believes, is an unbeliever, or an unbelieving person.

It's very simple.

All of the double talk, and "explaining" away of the clear and plain, straightforward words of the New Testament writers, will never make someone who no longer believes, somehow be, a believer.


20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire." 2 Peter 2:20-22



... after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.



JLB