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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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OSAS The Truth
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
- Start date
This is just ridiculous. And goes to show how stuck you are in your false doctrine and cannot follow a logical,biblical thought. He has never said that outside of the context of the aorist tense of believe in Acts 16:31.
The moment one believes in Christ one is saved. If you go onto the apostate state, one is still saved. Simply, because one is saved by grace through that moment/instant one believed.
And you have never ONCE dealt with the aorist tense of believe in Acts 16:31.
The RSV says, "and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus." Gal. 4:14
Nevertheless you're referring to a different letter which doesn't explain his second letter to the Corinthians.
I didn't say there is no Satan. On the contrary. I said his sons were the religious authorities of the day. Jesus called them serpents and vipers, alluding to their father the devil. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Mt. 23:33 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44
I didn't say Satan is physical weakness. I said this thorn, which represents some painful condition, was in his flesh as a messenger of Satan that Satan was the ruler of this world. The idea of a messenger is that it carries a message. And what was that message? It was that Paul should not go against the authorities.
When Paul says it is in his flesh, he is not talking about the desire of the flesh, or sin, or the temptation to sin.
I take it this disability or weakness was caused by the Jews and the Gentiles who beat him and stoned him.
He was using spiritual language when he calls his disability a messenger, and a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass him.
dadof10
Member
Is it your contention, then, that those who apostatize "were never really saved in the first place"?
dadof10
Member
What about unbelief? That is exactly what we are talking about here, a person who used to believe in Christ, then chooses to believe in Allah. Are unbelievers saved? That is what you have to prove, that people who reject Christ are saved by Him anyway because they USED TO believe. Do I have to define the word "believer" for you?
I never said that, so please stop with your untruths. I have said repeatedly that one is saved WHEN they believe, and forever more.
I'm getting just so tired of your silliness. It is obvious that you have no understanding of what the prefix "un" means.
Here's a good example for you:
1. UN-married woman is one who has NEVER married
2. married woman is one who IS married
3. divorced woman is one who WAS married, and is referred to as the EX-wife, or a former wife.
A believer who "believes for a while" is an EX-believer. Your claim that they become an UN-believer is simply false, because they HAD believed at one time.
Your treatment of one who HAS believed but only for a while is unreasonable. They are in EX-believer, in exactly the same way an EX-wife is a former wife.
They are an EX-believer or a former believer. And still saved because eternal life is a charisma (Rom 6:23) and God's charisma is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
To all but you and those of your ilk.
I've never said that a former believer is a "believer". In fact, I've AGREED that they NO LONGER believe. But they are NOT an UN-believer.
Your abuse of the English language reveals your indefensible position.
IF that were true, then the Bible lies. Why are you ok with that?
Eternal life is described as charisma in Rom 6:23. And God's charisma is irrevocable in Rom 11:29.
If your statement were true, where is the Scriptural statements that support such a claim.
When I read your posts, I'm reminded of Neh 6:8 - I sent him this reply: “Nothing like what you are saying is happening; you are just making it up out of your head.” NIV
First apostates at one point DID believe. And all who have believed ARE saved. You still have not provided ANY verses about the need for continuing faith to stay saved. So you're just making it all up, as I noted from Neh 6:8.
You refuse to face the aorist tense of Acts 16:31, which I've pointed out repeatedly, as has gr8grace3, and I've pointed out repeatedly that Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29 use the same word for "gift" which proves that eternal life is irrevocable.
So, your position MUST conclude that some with eternal life will spend eternity in the second death.
Which means your view contains a HUGE contradiction, for eternal life cannot die, or reside in the second death.
To be clear, a believer who ceases to believe, for whatever reason, are NOT UN-believers, but former believers, or EX-believers. Biblical UN-believers are those who have NEVER believed. This distinction is very important to understand.
An EX-wife is a woman who WAS formerly married. An UN-married woman is one who has NEVER been married.
Even a divorced woman who is not currently married isn't an "UN-married" woman. The proper term is divorced woman.
But those who refuse to accept Scripture will try to divert attention away from these proper terminologies in order to obfiscate the issue.
Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift (Greek word 'charisma'). Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable.
JLB refuses to deal with these 2 verses. Would you please discuss how Paul could NOT have had eternal life in view when he wrote 11:29?
Further, before he wrote 11:29, he wrote 8:38, in which he notes that "neither things present, nor things future" can separate us from the love of Christ.
He made no point about those who continue to believe. The "us" refers to those who have believed.
So Paul made clear that nothing in the future can separate us from Christ's love. There were no stipulations on the future either. Such as "those who continue to believe", which is JLB's view.
An ex believer, was a believer, now he no longer believes, so therefore he is an unbelieving, ex believer.
He has chosen to turn away from the living God, to prolong his life on earth, so he renounced Jesus Christ as Lord and publicly confessed Allah as Lord.
35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." Mark 8:35-38
JLB
I have shown you several times, that Roman 6:23 pertains to believers.
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
God's gift to us is eternal life, to as many as believe.
This promise is not made to unbelievers who used to believe but no longer believe.
It's interesting to note what Jesus says on the Day of Judgement -
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' Matthew 25:34-40
you gave Me food
you gave Me drink
you took Me in
you clothed Me;
you visited Me
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41-46
you did not take Me in
you did not clothe Me
you did not visit Me.
inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.
JLB
Why do you continue to try to pit Scripture against Scripture?
Scripture SAYS that eternal life is charisma (Rom 6:23), and that God's charisma is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). Why do you keep rebelling against the Word of God.
I reject any opinion that God's Word is contradictory. So none of the verses you provide mean what you think they mean, because God's charisma is irrevocable.
That is irrefutable. And you haven't refuted anything I've provided.
Sure. I never argued otherwise. Those who have believed HAVE eternal life, which is charisma.
What you've continually FAILED to prove is that God revokes charisma from a believer who ceases to believe. In fact, your view has been refuted by Rom 11:29.
So where is the verse that supports your opinion that salvation is removed or revoked if a believer ceases to believe?
You are so confused. The promise is that God's gift (charisma) is irrevocable. But it seems you don't grasp the meaning of "irrevocable", huh.
Or, are you just rejecting the clear words of Scripture?
smaller
Member
Scriptural observation made that temptation was and remained in Paul's flesh as did a messenger of Satan. Not difficult to connect the party to the action.
What or who are Satan and his messengers was my question to you.
That's where your theological premise of human devils runs off the theological rails. We also know from scripture that all of Israel were Gods children per Deut. 14:1 and Psalm 82:6. Not to mention a myriad of scripture that shows both the entrance of Satan INTO humans, i.e. in particular with both Judas and Peter and devils being cast out of a multitude of humans. Humans were not cast out of themselves.
None of which serves to make any human a devil. Jesus advised us exactly how that happened to them all in Mark 4:15 (and similarly in the other seed parables.)
Yes, I can read. The thorn was the messengers of Satan. The malady, temptation, as that is what that entity class performs. Paul notes similarly in Romans 7 in connection with the internal resistance via temptation when the law against coveting was brought to him. We also know that sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8
I agree. He specifically noted a messenger of Satan, NOT the result of that habitation, whatever that was.
So beaing beaten by Jews now makes physical disability the messenger of Satan?
You hopefully at some point will see the futility of running in circles and never able to come to the conclusion that a messenger of Satan is an evil spiritual entity that was NOT Paul.
IF this latter is the case, and it is, it does change the way theology should be viewed as there are some conflicting matters to deal with.
I might also say that because this is a continuing reality today, the 'active resistance' by those parties continues to push blinded minds away from the obvious conclusions.
smaller
Member
[quote-freegrage]I never said it wasn't. So your "evaluation" fails.[/quote]
Your claim appears to be that had Paul not affirmed his experience, that his blinding encounter with Christ would have been ineffective. I would submit that the encounter itself based on the sufficiently of Him who imposed it was sufficient to perform Divine Intentions regardless of Saul.
Saul was turned from the power of Satan, just as Jesus commanded him to be call out others. See Acts 26:18.
Paul was called out to carry that same effort to all.
And you merely fail to perceive that the god of this world BLINDED them and place the entire onus on man when that's never been the case:
This is the factual position of everyone who doesn't believe, and it is a SPIRITUAL condition caused by the god of this world, that would be Satan and his minions.
Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
You on the other hand present that people blind themselves and that, only of and by themselves.
That is not and never was the case.
I would suggest that it's a continuing spiritual issue, to fail to perceive the enemy, BECAUSE that enemy does not allow the matters to be seen.
You could ask yourself if internal temptation in mind is only of you, or is it of Satan, the tempter?
I'd suggest the later, and if you suggest the former, I'd suggest that sight is void of scriptural insight to the matters of temptation.
Your claim appears to be that had Paul not affirmed his experience, that his blinding encounter with Christ would have been ineffective. I would submit that the encounter itself based on the sufficiently of Him who imposed it was sufficient to perform Divine Intentions regardless of Saul.
smaller said:
Saul was turned from the power of Satan, just as Jesus commanded him to be call out others. See Acts 26:18.
Paul was called out to carry that same effort to all.
And you merely fail to perceive that the god of this world BLINDED them and place the entire onus on man when that's never been the case:
This is the factual position of everyone who doesn't believe, and it is a SPIRITUAL condition caused by the god of this world, that would be Satan and his minions.
Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
You on the other hand present that people blind themselves and that, only of and by themselves.
That is not and never was the case.
I would suggest that it's a continuing spiritual issue, to fail to perceive the enemy, BECAUSE that enemy does not allow the matters to be seen.
You could ask yourself if internal temptation in mind is only of you, or is it of Satan, the tempter?
I'd suggest the later, and if you suggest the former, I'd suggest that sight is void of scriptural insight to the matters of temptation.
You "theory has been shown to be invalid, several times, yet you just ignore the obvious and keep trying to convince everyone that unbelievers are still saved.
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Romans 11:21-21
The gifts in Romans 11:29 are not referring to eternal life anymore than the gifts in Romans 12 are referring to eternal life. Charisma refers to the abilities that accompany the calling, as the context dictates.
6 Having then gifts [charisma] differing according to the grace [charis] that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Romans 12:6-8
These gifts that accompany the various callings within the body of Christ are given by God's grace.
Likewise, if the those of the house of Israel who have never believed, yet are still called, because the gifts and calling are irrevocable, chose to believe then they will be grafted in.
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Romans 11:28-31
So here is the question for you.
In context with Romans 11, since the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, are all Jews saved, even though the don't believe?
JLB
smaller
Member
They were purposefully blinded in our behalves.
Romans 11:
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
We can see that their stumbling was unbelief. Did that make them fall?
Uh, no.
Romans 11:
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Paul says that as it pertains to Jewish enemies of the Gospel, that they shall ALL be saved for the sake of their fathers, that would be Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Romans 11:25-32
Paul also deems that matter A MYSTERY. And it will remain a mystery because very few christians can believe their own eyes.
So here is the question for you.
In context with Romans 11, since the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, are all Jews saved, even though the don't believe?
Yes or No?
JLB