OSAS The Truth

[smaller]

That is not at all what that verse says.

Jesus already talks about the branches that bear good fruit will be pruned, but the branches (that have been grafted in - gentiles) will be CUT OFF entirely if they do not bear good fruit.

The grafted in branches are given an opportunity to bear good fruit, if they fail their opportunity, they will be cut off, as to not defile the entire tree. A small amount of yeast spreads through the whole batch of dough.

How can anyone deny the verse I provided says exactly that those grafted in, who do not bear good fruit, will be cut off and thrown into the fire?

The bottom line with either camp is that most of us engaged in theology and it's positions are usually and falsely initially led to try to justify the evil present with us.

It can't be done by OSAS or non-OSAS.

There are other far more credible avenues of understanding provided to us in the Word.

No believers supposedly 'good tree' EVIL present in the form of evil thoughts-words or actions is going to be under Grace or justified by the Word.

It's fruit of the bad tree that we all bear presently.

 

[smaller]

The basic question from a non OSAS believer would be can on OSAS believer take OSAS doctrine as granted especially when a OSAS believer falls into some sexual sin and cannot come out of it. Can he still make to heaven if he doesn't get up from that trap??

The point in matters of sin is that no one is going to become sinless in any case of measures. It's so much fun to look at the bad sins of someone else and claim they may not be saved but few like to look at the facts of their own sin and being a sinner.

No one's sins are better or worse than anyone else. There are only degrees of slaveship. One can be just as much a slave of sin in mind as a slave of sin in deed.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I have posted scripture in this thread to disprove OSAS, but it seems people don't like to discuss those verses that appear to support NOSAS. I have posted a couple of verses in John 15 that claim that if a branch that has been grafted in (gentiles) does not bear fruit, it will be cut off and burned in fire. If this doesn't mean a person, who was once saved, can be cut off, then tell me what it means?

John 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

I am not a theologian, but the verses you quoted do not say that a saved person can lose their salvation.
You are reading that into them.

 

[LovethroughDove]

There cannot be 2 contradictory scenarios in Scripture. Either one is permanently saved at the moment (aorist tense) of belief, or they aren't. The Bible does not promote both views. They are contradictory.

I've just shown JLB why his view is in error. And Rom 11:29 is irrefutable; God's gifts (righteousness-5:16,17, eternal life-6:23) and calling (1:5,6,7, 8:28,30) are irrevocable.

Once saved, always saved.
Once faith, always saved.
Once born again, always saved.

God's gifts and calling are irrevocable. Amen!

I didn't say that the bible contradicts. It keeps testing the reader to make sure the person is born of the Spirit.

You didn't address what I said about the churches in Revelation 2 & 3.

The only believers totally in line with the gospel is Philadelphia.

 

[jonahmano]

1 Cor 6:9 Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.…

What if all these parties are of OSAS group? They are still saved because they are Once Saved Always Saved. the only difference in heaven according to them is that they don't receive any rewards. If this is the true doctrine then every man will believe in Jesus Christ and will be fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals.....................

 

[FreeGrace]

2 Tim 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I believe there can be 2 contradictory statements, That is why God tells us to rightly divide the word of truth. Just because they are contradictory, does not make 1 false and the other true. They are both true.

The definiton of contradiction does not permit such a statement.

From Merriam-Webster:
the act of saying something that is opposite or very different in meaning to something else

: a difference or disagreement between two things which means that both cannot be true

I do not believe the Bible contradicts itself ever.

Its just one was not written to you.

It does not matter who Scripture was written to. Truth is always true, and never contradicts itself.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think you are missing the point here.
Paul was concerned with Gospel message.
OSAS and non-OSAS is really a trivial matter that Paul tells us not to argue about.
OSAS builds up the body of Christ, non-OSAS does not.
If one believes in non-OSAS, they should keep their trivial belief to themselves so as not to divide the body of Christ since it does not edify the body in any way.
It's a matter of maturity in understanding the Word of God.

How is the issue a trivial matter? It goes to the very essence of God. And Scripture is actually clear about it. Those who take the opposing view are against the very words of God. Is that trivial? I think not.

 

[jonahmano]

The point in matters of sin is that no one is going to become sinless in any case of measures. It's so much fun to look at the bad sins of someone else and claim they may not be saved but few like to look at the facts of their own sin and being a sinner.

No one's sins are better or worse than anyone else. There are only degrees of slaveship. One can be just as much a slave of sin in mind as a slave of sin in deed.

I will tell you the difference. There is difference between OSAS and Non OSAS when the Holy Spirit convicting a person of his sin and his choice of turning to God by obeying the Holy Spirit or not. But with the OSAS doctrine the person may not have any effect on the conviction of the Holy Spirit because He knows that He is already saved irrespective of his sins which he commit because He knows that He is Once Saved Always Saved whereas a non OSAS does worry about his eternity when the Holy Spirit convicts him because his desire is to be with God and not with the devil and his hearts tends to obey the Holy Spirit.

'No one's sins are better or worse than anyone else' is altogether a different picture and should not be clubbed into what I say.

OSAS doctrine gives man licence to sin because he know whatever dirty he does still he know he will be saved because he has believed in Christ and he also gets another thought that every man is a sinner so God knows my weakness and he will save me but I know I won't have any rewards but still I will make it to heaven

 

[FreeGrace]

OSAS does build the body of Christ. which would be weak and deceiving. yesterday a brother here was quoting a scripture saying that Satan will kill the body of OSAS sinner who does continually sin because that person never came out of his sin but his Spirit will still be saved. Do you also agree with this??

If you're referring to one of my posts, I nevef said that "Satan will kill the body". Please read what Paul said. He "handed over" the man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. In 2 Cor, it seems clear that the man, who was expelled from the congregation for his sin (1 Cor 5:13) repented of his sin and was reinstated into fellowship with the body of believers (2 Cor 2:6-11).

The point is that any believer who willfully disobeys God's commands for living is subject to being "handed over" to Satan for some very painful experiences, which may include death, which the Bible refers to as the "sin unto death" as noted in 1 Jn 5:16 and examples given in 1 Cor 10 (Exodus generation) and 1 Cor 11:30 (abusing the Lord's table), and the case of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5.

 

[FreeGrace]

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

And again, there are reasons for this and ways to get through it and past it in understandings in order to not LET that evil RULE over us. We are not meant to JUSTIFY THE EVIL WE DO under Grace or under OSAS. That is where OSAS utterly fails.

Please explain exactly how OSAS "utterly fails"? I have no idea. Truth does not fail. It's the non-OSAS view that fails, given even the verses that they think support their view.

 

[jonahmano]

If you're referring to one of my posts, I nevef said that "Satan will kill the body". Please read what Paul said. He "handed over" the man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. In 2 Cor, it seems clear that the man, who was expelled from the congregation for his sin (1 Cor 5:13) repented of his sin and was reinstated into fellowship with the body of believers (2 Cor 2:6-11).

The point is that any believer who willfully disobeys God's commands for living is subject to being "handed over" to Satan for some very painful experiences, which may include death, which the Bible refers to as the "sin unto death" as noted in 1 Jn 5:16 and examples given in 1 Cor 10 (Exodus generation) and 1 Cor 11:30 (abusing the Lord's table), and the case of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5.

Yesterday you were taking the meaning of 'destruction' = death but anyways thanks for the change. I also believe in painful experiences. The devil is always after us to take advantage of our weakness and we are protected by God but the theory which you stated yesterday that the body will be killed and the spirit will be lifted into heaven is not in line with the sound doctrine.

 

[Chopper]

That kinda puts the kibosh on the OSAS doctrine.

Wouldn't you say?
.

Lets define "false believer" The fact that a person is referred to as a believer makes him one. At some time, like the parable of the Sower and the seed, only one of them was a true believer, the other three were false believers. At one time they believed, then something happened and they became false believers. When they believed, their name was written into the book of life, when they became false, their name was blotted out. There are many angels in Heaven who are assigned to keeping records.

 

[smaller]

Please explain exactly how OSAS "utterly fails"? I have no idea. Truth does not fail. It's the non-OSAS view that fails, given even the verses that they think support their view.

OSAS did the messenger of Satan in the flesh of Paul ZERO good.

Have already stated that neither positions can justify the evil present with any of us.

 

[FreeGrace]

I have posted scripture in this thread to disprove OSAS, but it seems people don't like to discuss those verses that appear to support NOSAS.

The verses used by the non-OSAS crowd do NOT specifically or directly mention salvation being in jeapardy of being lost. That is being "read into" the verses. The warnings aren't about the loss of salvation, but the loss of reward, when the condition is lifestyle. That is consistent with all of Scripture.

otoh, can you deal with the proof of OSAS in Romans? 11:29 states that God's gifts (imputed righteousness-5:15,17, and eternal life-6:23) and the calling (all believers are called-1:5,6,7, 8:28,30) are IRREVOCABLE.
I think that is as clear as can be. Paul defined what God's gifts are and who the calling is for; believers. And they are irrevocable.

I have posted a couple of verses in John 15 that claim that if a branch that has been grafted in (gentiles) does not bear fruit, it will be cut off and burned in fire. If this doesn't mean a person, who was once saved, can be cut off, then tell me what it means?

I'd be happy to. The statement is in the context of an agricultural economy where everyone understood what to do with a branch that doesn't bear fruit. One prunes the tree. Discards the branch because of its uselessness.

Only when one attempts to "spiritualize" the analogy does one make "discard" mean "loss of salvation". The issue is whether one is being used by God or not. Not salvation. God discarded the chosen nation of Israel, who were useless in spreading the gospel, and focused on Gentiles, who responded to His Word and were useful to Him in spreading the gospel. It is that simple.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

note: the "abiding" in Christ is a reference to fellowship, not relationship. We do not create, sustain, or maintain our relationship with Christ. That is all from Him. He sustains believers, per Jesus' own words in Jn 15:5.

The issue of fellowship is explained fully in 1 Jn 1.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

How is the issue a trivial matter? It goes to the very essence of God. And Scripture is actually clear about it. Those who take the opposing view are against the very words of God. Is that trivial? I think not.

2 Timothy 2:14;
"Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those you listen".

If I believe in OSAS or non-OSAS, it does not make a difference.
It is not in the least way at the very essence of God.
Only in your own mind.
My relationship with Jesus is what matters.

 

[FreeGrace]

That EVIL PRESENT is of the DEVIL.

No, non-OSAS can not justify the evil present within any person. Neither can OSAS.

Both positions are simply ROTTEN at the core because the holders are not honest with themselves.

Sounds as if you reject both positions, by calling both of them "rotten". It's either one or the other. It can't be both, and it cannot be neither. So your conclusion is false.

 

[smaller]

I will tell you the difference. There is difference between OSAS and Non OSAS when the Holy Spirit convicting a person of his sin and his choice of turning to God by obeying the Holy Spirit or not.

Neither position of OSAS or non is going to make any believer sinless or justify the sins of anyone.

To get to the heart of this matter one HAS to examine the source of their sin. They will find that source without ANY justifications or Grace.

OSAS is entirely too simplistic of a notion.

But with the OSAS doctrine the person may not have any effect on the conviction of the Holy Spirit because He knows that He is already saved irrespective of his sins which he commit because He knows that He is Once Saved Always Saved whereas a non OSAS does worry about his eternity when the Holy Spirit convicts him because his desire is to be with God and not with the devil and his hearts tends to obey the Holy Spirit.

And that claim does not speak to the heart of the problem.

There were reasons why the RELIGIOUS AUTHORITIES failed in Jesus' days and those reasons remain to this day. Religious people suffer greatly from the SIN of HYPOCRISY. And Jesus saved His more DIRE warnings for those types of people. That would also be US as believers.

There are reasons that this happens. I will guarantee that every believer who reads Mark 4:15 will read that text and instantly automatically say: Well, that doesn't happen to ME.

Guess what? It does happen to ALL.

'No one's sins are better or worse than anyone else' is altogether a different picture and should not be clubbed into what I say.

Even unbelievers rightfully view most christians as common hypocrites, thinking themselves as better than others. It's pretty bad when unbelievers can see the obvious.

OSAS doctrine gives man licence to sin because he know whatever dirty he does still he know he will be saved because he has believed in Christ and he also gets another thought that every man is a sinner so God knows my weakness and he will save me but I know I won't have any rewards but still I will make it to heaven

Man doesn't need a license to sin. We are all sinners who remain so til the day we die. No one becomes sinless upon belief. Anyone who tries to justify the entirety of themselves in any theological construct will fail at the point where they try to justify their SINs.

 

[FreeGrace]

The basic question from a non OSAS believer would be can on OSAS believer take OSAS doctrine as granted especially when a OSAS believer falls into some sexual sin and cannot come out of it. Can he still make to heaven if he doesn't get up from that trap??

The basic answer is always "yes". Why? Because Christ died for all sins, so any sin that any believer falls into has already been paid for. Which is by grace, of course.

Second, God's system is by grace, not by works. What the non OSAS believer keeps missing is that God's gifts (imputed righteousness-Rom 5:15,17 and eternal life-6:23) and calling (all believers are called-1:5,6,7, 8:28,30) are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). How do you get around such a clear statement from Paul?

 

[smaller]

Sounds as if you reject both positions, by calling both of them "rotten". It's either one or the other. It can't be both, and it cannot be neither. So your conclusion is false.

I believe every believer is SAVED, period, end of conversation. But my understanding will not extend to the ACTS and ACTIONS of sin or the TEMPTER who is involved with them in SIN.

That is where I HALVE every believer inclusive of myself.

OSAS is a blanket that is insufficient to cover the TEMPTER.

 

[Gary]

Lets define "false believer" The fact that a person is referred to as a believer makes him one. At some time, like the parable of the Sower and the seed, only one of them was a true believer, the other three were false believers. At one time they believed, then something happened and they became false believers. When they believed, their name was written into the book of life, when they became false, their name was blotted out. There are many angels in Heaven who are assigned to keeping records.

Having ones name in the Book of Life means that individual is saved. They have eternal Life.

If their name is missing from the Book of Life, that means the individual is not saved. They do not have eternal Life.

If a name is blotted from the Book of Life, that means an individual was at one time saved but now they are not.

Do you agree with this?
.